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Poll
Question: Is Azula capable of redemption and if so, will it happen?
Yes, but won't change - 64 (25.3%)
Yes and will do something good - 106 (41.9%)
No - 83 (32.8%)
Total Voters: 253

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Author Topic: Azula and Evil... Redemption?  (Read 377408 times)
Loopy
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« Reply #6150 on: Apr 09, 2019 06:36 pm »

Aaron's tweets are vague enough that I don't think we can assume he means a journey similar to Zuko's. And I didn't get the impression that he's even talking about a journey at all; it seemed to me that he's talking about a moment, that point where Azula bottoms out, and at that point where all seems lost for her, Zuko steps forward.

The parallel, to me, is when Zuko is scarred and freshly banished, and Iroh steps forward to come with him into banishment.

And I think the power of knowing that, even at the worst moment, acceptance and love is still something they can have can be transformative for both siblings. Ozai, after all, made them earn his 'love.' Ursa, in Azula's view, did the same. So the moment with Zuko is where Azula learns that Ozai's way of doing things is wrong. And that's where she begins the half of her journey that leads back up out of the lowest depths. Zuko certainly wasn't "redeemed" when Iroh went with him into his banishment. Azula's moment would simply give her the impetuous to continue trying to survive, and -- eventually -- decide to repent of her past mistakes and want to do better.

(I was explicit with that last part because I hate the word "redemption." I say this at least once a page, but it means different things to everyone and is responsible for at least 80% of the arguments on this subject.)

But that's all IMO. I'm sure everyone who cares about this subject is projecting to some degree on Aaron's tweets.

(Fun Fact: I still haven't in the poll on this thread.)
« Last Edit: Apr 09, 2019 06:38 pm by Loopy » Logged

Urmom666
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« Reply #6151 on: Apr 09, 2019 10:26 pm »

Aaron's tweets are vague enough that I don't think we can assume he means a journey similar to Zuko's. And I didn't get the impression that he's even talking about a journey at all; it seemed to me that he's talking about a moment, that point where Azula bottoms out, and at that point where all seems lost for her, Zuko steps forward.

The parallel, to me, is when Zuko is scarred and freshly banished, and Iroh steps forward to come with him into banishment.

And I think the power of knowing that, even at the worst moment, acceptance and love is still something they can have can be transformative for both siblings. Ozai, after all, made them earn his 'love.' Ursa, in Azula's view, did the same. So the moment with Zuko is where Azula learns that Ozai's way of doing things is wrong. And that's where she begins the half of her journey that leads back up out of the lowest depths. Zuko certainly wasn't "redeemed" when Iroh went with him into his banishment. Azula's moment would simply give her the impetuous to continue trying to survive, and -- eventually -- decide to repent of her past mistakes and want to do better.

True, but point is I don't want Zuko playing as massive of a role in all of this as some others do.

I was explicit with that last part because I hate the word "redemption." I say this at least once a page, but it means different things to everyone and is responsible for at least 80% of the arguments on this subject.)

Nah, it's closer to 90% let's be real here.



Fun Fact: I still haven't in the poll on this thread.)
Why am I not surprised?  Cheesy
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Loopy
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« Reply #6152 on: Apr 10, 2019 06:34 pm »

True, but point is I don't want Zuko playing as massive of a role in all of this as some others do.

Fair. If I had to create a full story based on Aaron's idea, that moment he's so keen on would be Zuko's only substantial appearance in the present. Well, maybe he'd appear briefly at the beginning as a bitter antagonist to set up a contrast with his Angel Moment. But mostly he'd be in flashbacks.

The flashbacks would be Hero style, Rashomon-ing it up with different color palette to differentiate them and tell us how they're affecting Azula as she relives them.

Also, the story wouldn't indicate which versions of each flashback at true. The importance is in which versions Azula can accept at any given moment. You know, red to show they anger her, blue to show she's feeling sad while thinking of it, yellow for peaceful remembrances, etc. I'm not looking to break ground, here.

...

What were we talking about again?

Oh, right, Zuko!

Yeah, he's not Azula's nurse.
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Urmom666
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« Reply #6153 on: Apr 14, 2019 07:08 pm »

True, but point is I don't want Zuko playing as massive of a role in all of this as some others do.

Fair. If I had to create a full story based on Aaron's idea, that moment he's so keen on would be Zuko's only substantial appearance in the present. Well, maybe he'd appear briefly at the beginning as a bitter antagonist to set up a contrast with his Angel Moment. But mostly he'd be in flashbacks.

The flashbacks would be Hero style, Rashomon-ing it up with different color palette to differentiate them and tell us how they're affecting Azula as she relives them.

Also, the story wouldn't indicate which versions of each flashback at true. The importance is in which versions Azula can accept at any given moment. You know, red to show they anger her, blue to show she's feeling sad while thinking of it, yellow for peaceful remembrances, etc. I'm not looking to break ground, here.

...

What were we talking about again?

Oh, right, Zuko!

Yeah, he's not Azula's nurse.

Exactly. Everybody knows it's Ty Lee.  Roll Eyes
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ViridianIV
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« Reply #6154 on: Aug 21, 2019 12:55 am »

In the comics it sort of feels like Aarons ideas are already sort of playing out in a way?  Azula is changing, and its almost entirely due to Zuko.  Now I don't personally believe that brothers/sisters/friends/relatives necessarily hold any obligation to provide aid to one another as a certainty, but for whatever reason Zuko has decided to take it on himself to care about Azula in spite of her antagonistic problems.  He's doing this because he's a saint or because he believes it's what Iroh would do (He's wrong on that last, Iroh himself basically said 'she's crazy and needs to go down'... sort of tragic itself in a way when even the worlds BEST PERSON can't look at you as anything more than the monster you've become).  It's had a clear effect, and while it appears she's backslid a little in Smoke and Shadow, reading between the lines indicates that Azula's very much in a transitory state... where she transitions to is up in the air, but she clearly no longer wants to hurt Zuko... and its probable that the underlaying reason for this is because in The Search she glimpsed into his eyes and saw that he wasn't really asking or demanding anything from her in exchange for his caring about her wellbeing. 

Of course... I know a lot of people here would rather burn the comics than analyze them... but they are what we've got.
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Loopy
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« Reply #6155 on: Aug 22, 2019 07:24 pm »

I think it's less that Azula is in a transitory state than the comics simply have provided us so little context and insight into her that the next story could literally take her in any direction and it wouldn't contradict anything.

But that gets into the Watson/Doylist thing.
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Yougo
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« Reply #6156 on: Aug 26, 2019 07:36 am »

Also, pre-breakdown Azula was pragmatic more than she was sadistic or vindictive. if Zuko is helping her, regardless of his motivations, who is she to not let him?

a transition back to her old self would technically be valid in having her regaining a functional state, though not very redeeming, and story wise not very satisfying. it could only serve to let zuko deal with disappointment. And ruin Azula by capping off all development and emotional investment of the reader. if at this point even Zuko drops her, she's done.
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hmweasley
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« Reply #6157 on: Sep 02, 2019 05:54 am »

Zuko is so tied up with Azula's past that I'm of the mind that he couldn't help her even if he wanted to. For their relationship to be mended, I think Azula would have to improve on her own (or with the help of others) first.

I think she would benefit most from being completely away from the Fire Nation capital and the world she grew up in. It's clear that she felt a lot of pressure there, and getting away from that would be a significant part of her putting her life back together in my view. It would be good for her to make friends who aren't part of her old world who could help her (possibly without really knowing how they're helping, at least at first).

Now that I'm typing all of this out, I realize that it sounds kind of like the basis for a cheesy romance where someone with a dark/sad past moves somewhere new and hides their backstory at first only to eventually reveal it to their love interest and have a happily ever after. But that's not really what I'm thinking. Azula doesn't need romance, but I do think she'd benefit from having friends who don't see her as a princess or have any expectations of her.

Maybe that means getting out of the Fire Nation entirely, depending on how easily people would recognize her. I'm not sure. But I don't think being around Zuko or anyone else connected to her past will help her in the initial stages of improving.

I also think that, no matter how much Azula "came around" (whatever that means since, as it's been said before, it could mean a lot of different things to different people), that everything would be fine within even a few years. Azula's been through a lot, and I think it could take upwards of a decade for her to really feel at peace.
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Loopy
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« Reply #6158 on: Sep 02, 2019 04:51 pm »

Now that I'm typing all of this out, I realize that it sounds kind of like the basis for a cheesy romance where someone with a dark/sad past moves somewhere new and hides their backstory at first only to eventually reveal it to their love interest and have a happily ever after. But that's not really what I'm thinking. Azula doesn't need romance, but I do think she'd benefit from having friends who don't see her as a princess or have any expectations of her.

I was thinking it sounded like the basis for a classic Western, where someone with a dark/sad past moves somewhere new and hides their backstory at first only to eventually reveal it when darker forces close in on the new friends they've made. And the lesson might just be that we can run away from our past mistakes, but that won't change the person those mistakes have turned us into.

Goes to show how different diets affect the patterns we recognize, I guess. Cheesy
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azure_flame
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« Reply #6159 on: Sep 08, 2019 09:16 pm »

Now that I'm typing all of this out, I realize that it sounds kind of like the basis for a cheesy romance where someone with a dark/sad past moves somewhere new and hides their backstory at first only to eventually reveal it to their love interest and have a happily ever after. But that's not really what I'm thinking. Azula doesn't need romance, but I do think she'd benefit from having friends who don't see her as a princess or have any expectations of her.

I was thinking it sounded like the basis for a classic Western, where someone with a dark/sad past moves somewhere new and hides their backstory at first only to eventually reveal it when darker forces close in on the new friends they've made. And the lesson might just be that we can run away from our past mistakes, but that won't change the person those mistakes have turned us into.

Goes to show how different diets affect the patterns we recognize, I guess. Cheesy

The Princess with no country
the good, the bad, the burning blue
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Zyrax
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« Reply #6160 on: Sep 09, 2019 05:21 am »

Are we still discussing this?
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Loopy
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« Reply #6161 on: Sep 10, 2019 09:53 pm »

The Princess with no country
the good, the bad, the burning blue

For a Few Flames More


Are we still discussing this?

It's not like I have anything better to do.
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