AvatarSpirit.Net
Jul 19, 2018 11:36 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
ASN Mainsite: AvatarSpirit.net
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Poll
Question: Is Azula capable of redemption and if so, will it happen?
Yes, but won't change - 62 (24.8%)
Yes and will do something good - 105 (42%)
No - 83 (33.2%)
Total Voters: 250

Pages: « previous page   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Azula and Evil... Redemption?  (Read 320240 times)
Loopy
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 31661


I'm Loooooooopy!


« Reply #6050 on: Sep 14, 2016 09:04 pm »

Even after the comics end. I say yes but what about you?

Azula's redemption is so unclear I think the writers should never make her actions clear. Leave it to the fans to decide if her actions in Smoke and Shadow were stealth mentoring Zuko or not.

Maybe Smoke and Shadow should be her finale appearance in the franchise and North and South be the final Avatar comic. 99% sure that's not going to happen but I can dream.

So, should Azula's finale appearance in these comics make it clear of how her story ends? Should redemption for Azula remain ambiguous or should she get a clear redemption/no redemption?

This will be my last Azula thread for awhile so I would like lots of comments and opinions.

What's the point of leaving Azula's actions ambiguous (even though they weren't, and everything she did matched up 100% with what she said she was doing)?

Open endings work when the lack of an ending is part of the point of a story, such as something meant to be realistic tackling a large nigh-unsolvable problem. The lack of ending illustrates an ongoing struggle, and so the conflict is being presented as something that will always exist.

But Azula's struggle can't be ongoing, because she has to die sometime, and even before that, she's probably going to change as she ages. She's not locked in an eternal struggle that's been illustrated; in fact, she just started a new agenda. There's been no illustration of the futility of that agenda, because she almost won, and if anything Zuko's characterization shows that it's only a matter of luck that he didn't do something completely unforgivable. So Azula is actually being presented as someone capable of winning in the future.

At the same time, LoK has shown that she doesn't win, so not giving Azula an ending at this point will just feel like a storyline that was killed prematurely, rather than something constructed to have no ending.
Logged

doratchi
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 78


« Reply #6051 on: Sep 15, 2016 03:21 am »

Wait a minute, Toph is clearly at the Southern Tribe because she wearing a coat to keep warm and she will most likely arrive in part 2, what if Aang also arrives in part 2?

And if Aang is at the South tribe in part 2 and/or 3 then Azula will most likely never appear. Zuko is known to arrive at tribe in part 3 so him fighting Azula seems unlikely at best. Aang is shown fighting someone on the cover of part 2 but Zuko appears to not be with him (Aang's role is seemingly about helping Zuko with something).

The cover of part 3 appears to have Aang and Toph running with Katara and Soka. We know Zuko is going to show up at the tribe.

If the whole gaang are at the tribe by the story's conclusion then it would make perfect since and pretty heartwarming to end the comics at North and South because that's where the show began at! Classic Book Ends trope.

It would only work if they all show up but they might.
Aang and Toph are 100% back on part 2.
Part 1 is only Katara and Sokka (no one else make any appear)
Zuko is back to help Aang in part 3.
Logged
Nikkel
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 492


King of kings, monster of monsters.


« Reply #6052 on: Mar 01, 2017 12:25 am »

Okay, finished Smoke and Shadow Pt. 3 the other day, so... SPOILERS!
(Not sure if this site ever developed a spoiler cover - if it does, I'd be happy to modify this post later to fix it!)

The problem I have with Azula's character here is that there was a chance for further development, but all we're seeing is a step backwards. By becoming "free of the voices", she's back to the manipulative psychopath that everyone expects. She's back to being a villain, back to being a plot device, back to being the one with leverage over Zuko, back to running around with two henchladies, and... It's frustrating. I don't expect a happy ending for her, nor do I expect any closure, but to see her regress into something that resembles pre-mental breakdown Azula is disappointing. There was a genuine chance for complex character development, and instead of anything substantial her character is reverted back to a cardboard villain.
« Last Edit: Mar 01, 2017 12:29 am by Nikkel » Logged

Keeper of Urzai, Ursa's Survival, and Azula's Lies + Psychotic Breakdown
Tamerlan Pahlavi
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 9095


Selam, Sahib


« Reply #6053 on: Mar 01, 2017 02:07 pm »

Haven't read the comic myself but I've read summaries and I have to agree, there is a lot of fanfiction I enjoyed more than the story of the comics. Then again, she's the only credibly threatening villain that is left so they had to go for that route. On the other hand, her being a literal machine of evil is what made her popular originally.
Logged
Loopy
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 31661


I'm Loooooooopy!


« Reply #6054 on: Mar 01, 2017 06:47 pm »

I love when people come to the same conclusions as do in isolation.
Logged

ByStorm
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 3129


Look with favor upon a bold beginning.


« Reply #6055 on: Mar 03, 2017 07:57 am »

Haven't read the comic myself but I've read summaries and I have to agree, there is a lot of fanfiction I enjoyed more than the story of the comics. Then again, she's the only credibly threatening villain that is left so they had to go for that route. On the other hand, her being a literal machine of evil is what made her popular originally.
It says something when they couldn't draw from Eastern mysthology  and jidaigeki to find some villains and plots to inspire and fill the roster.

I suppose the only thing worse is my second earliest attempt at fanfiction.

I wrote a terrible fanfiction I abandoned a while back where the Avatar world was somehow integrated into the modern world, and what they believed to be the North and South Pole  and other outer points were merely the outermost stretches of the dimensional pane that kept their world away from ours, much like what some conspoiracy theorists said about the Bermuda Triangle having some continent.  Due to Sozin's war and them meeting Americans and other powers, they pull a Red Dawn and take over the United States , leaving an American OC protagonist to join a disoriented Sokka and fight against the Fire Nation. Namely, said protagonist uses a classic GTO despite never having experience, and somehow has the ability to firebend for some reason. Also, the Fire Nation now runs both nuclear powers, is sort of modernized, which makes them a terrifying threat, as if they weren't before.

It's a giant pot of crazy that's the stuff from my bored mind. A Gary Stu that's unreasonably mistrusted by main cast until he proves himself and makes the others look stupid. Add in some contrived thing where he could've been some affair between Zhao or Iroh with some other character. Actually I take half of it back. It at least has some creativity in there somewhere, barring the terrible characters, writing and everything else bad with it.



Logged

"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their owl husbands." - The Owl Bible , 1 Strigidae Bubo 3:5. Taken from a typo in 1 Peter 3:5.
Nikkel
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 492


King of kings, monster of monsters.


« Reply #6056 on: Mar 03, 2017 06:07 pm »

Haven't read the comic myself but I've read summaries and I have to agree, there is a lot of fanfiction I enjoyed more than the story of the comics. Then again, she's the only credibly threatening villain that is left so they had to go for that route.
It says something when they couldn't draw from Eastern mysthology  and jidaigeki to find some villains and plots to inspire and fill the roster.

Right? Like, they came up with the whole Kemurikage and could have introduced the concept of "dark spirits" to Aang.

On the other hand, her being a literal machine of evil is what made her popular originally.

But if there's one thing we know and love about this show, is that the characters are anything but one-dimensional (except Ozai being a megalomaniac). Sure, Azula's character didn't have a whole lot of depth at first, but then we saw a whole new perspective during Sozin's Comet. It was a perspective that gauged quite a bit of sympathy from the audience, and I think her turn there made her grow more popular than she was before.
Logged

Keeper of Urzai, Ursa's Survival, and Azula's Lies + Psychotic Breakdown
Loopy
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 31661


I'm Loooooooopy!


« Reply #6057 on: Mar 04, 2017 02:57 pm »


http://equle.deviantart.com/art/Azula-666962673

Logged

ByStorm
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 3129


Look with favor upon a bold beginning.


« Reply #6058 on: Mar 05, 2017 02:57 am »


Haven't read the comic myself but I've read summaries and I have to agree, there is a lot of fanfiction I enjoyed more than the story of the comics. Then again, she's the only credibly threatening villain that is left so they had to go for that route.
It says something when they couldn't draw from Eastern mysthology  and jidaigeki to find some villains and plots to inspire and fill the roster.

Right? Like, they came up with the whole Kemurikage and could have introduced the concept of "dark spirits" to Aang.

[/quote]

I would love if they did both , and the fact that Azula's already walking between sanity and insanity just so allowed her to copy their designs from some sort of nightmare she had while being at the asylum, would lend well to this. They use her to fulfill their agendas until it eventually becomes clear she's not only aware of them [after all, think that her insanity while removing her ability to lightningbend, gave her something else to parallel her uncle], but can push them under her will. In reality, things may be far different.

See. Now the Gaang has a formidable adversary or adversaries that's entirely alien to them, regardless of whatever they know about her. Could say something about the toxic nature of wanting to reclaim past glory and how it corrupts people, while her intentions towards helping her brother to the throne could very well be sabotaged from her lack of humility and self absorption into her loss of status, family and a sense of self.  Her very-individual centered approach would be seen as a vice by a more collective-minded Eastern audience, as it's wont to undo the balance the Gaang has established in unforeseen ways.

Maybe as some fall under the Kemurikage,  their abilities and knowledge transmit throughout the "borg" hivemind. The whole thing of children being taken by them was smokescreen. It was to breed fear and prevent them as adults, with their brains and abilities, from being assimilated and make it vastly harder to keep under control. Since they can use faces of people, having them use ones of people they've taken over would pose a psychological horror. If they're not removed from their power, the victims will have to killed as well. And that could very be the end of Sokka as we know it and why he's not seen in Korra. He's just a dark spirit whose soul no longer exists.

Or just eliminate the human elements out of them, whatever it is. 
Logged

"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their owl husbands." - The Owl Bible , 1 Strigidae Bubo 3:5. Taken from a typo in 1 Peter 3:5.
Nikkel
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 492


King of kings, monster of monsters.


« Reply #6059 on: Mar 07, 2017 10:08 am »

Her very-individual centered approach would be seen as a vice by a more collective-minded Eastern audience, as it's wont to undo the balance the Gaang has established in unforeseen ways.

This is a super cool point I didn't consider at all, but it makes a lot of logical sense on both a large and small scale. On a small scale it's a vice, and on a large scale it throws a wrench into the plans Zuko and Aang have laid for reuniting the four nations.
Logged

Keeper of Urzai, Ursa's Survival, and Azula's Lies + Psychotic Breakdown
ByStorm
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 3129


Look with favor upon a bold beginning.


« Reply #6060 on: Mar 09, 2017 04:23 am »

Her very-individual centered approach would be seen as a vice by a more collective-minded Eastern audience, as it's wont to undo the balance the Gaang has established in unforeseen ways.

This is a super cool point I didn't consider at all, but it makes a lot of logical sense on both a large and small scale. On a small scale it's a vice, and on a large scale it throws a wrench into the plans Zuko and Aang have laid for reuniting the four nations.

If the writers are smart enough in Eastern Asian cultures as they've been so far, they would clue this into the story. Then again, Korra basically stomped the entire notion of balance and ruined much of ATLA with Vaatu and making the Avatar some Spirit Evolution from Digimon in addition to having simplistic story-lines that had clear good vs. evil with nothing in between. The annoying side characters that you wish would die, but end up turning the tide of battle in farcical, deus ex machina ways that would never work in the original series. Or that the poor pacing and creating relationships out of thin air without any development whatsoever or earning, while Korra's tortured constantly with zero payoff in seeing her wreck them.  Almost as if the success of Avatar :TLA were mostly due to the other writers and talent on the show.

So I wholeheartedly doubt it they'll get it enough, given that Season 3 was the weakest and made Aang a super preachy hypocrite who talks about not being vengeful, but murders Fire Nation troops left and right for that exact reason. Or the time when he nearly killed the Sandbenders.  It's perfectly fine to kill common people for your cause that have been brainwashed since they were born, for a few generations [which Aang cites as a reason why Sokka shouldn't treat Fire Nation citizens as "Evil"] , but let's don't kill the genocidal maniac prepared to burn half of your world to ash and throw the earth off of balance. Nope. Let's spare him.

I'm even perplexed why everyone in the show is so fine with Iroh given what he probably has done. Zuko's the only one aside from Azula that deserved to be spared because they were victims of indoctrination and abuse, much like most of their nation. It's clear Ozai did more of a number on Azula since Iroh never cared to extend a hand to get her in his influence. So in some ways, it's hard to take them seriously how Azula is set up as this villain when she cannot be held accountable for her actions due to how the abuse and codependency warped her mind and left her more fragile.

I would really hope they delve into Iroh's issues and shed more light onto the tragic character of Azula. Having her selfish approach to fixing her older brother's problems [in some way to have power for herself] and highlighting the issues a character such as herself has, would make for better storytelling. Break some walls, expose the brokenness of the royal family for everyone to see.

Have Zuko begin to question himself and how he views his father figure. Have Aang see Azula in a new light and try to help her during the point she is unintentionally causing events to cascade into chaos. Then have those characters grow far stronger out of this chaos, and have this new Azula come out of this struggle far stronger than she has been.

They've wasted her character so much in the comics that I don't see the point of reading them, because the more I read character bios and synopsis of the stories, they're as bad as some of the fanfiction I've read. Somehow, I feel she'd be perfect with Sokka if Suki goes away. It'd be refreshing to have characters not have lifelong relationships just because they were established in the show. Just because it would speak of how ironic and different her life has changed, loving someone she once looked down upon as a peasant, but finding their minds are electric, which is how they get together. Basically start them as antagonists where their wits play off each other.

There's stranger things that've happened before.
« Last Edit: Mar 09, 2017 08:40 am by ByStorm » Logged

"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their owl husbands." - The Owl Bible , 1 Strigidae Bubo 3:5. Taken from a typo in 1 Peter 3:5.
Loopy
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 31661


I'm Loooooooopy!


« Reply #6061 on: Mar 10, 2017 11:12 pm »

No one had a problem with Iroh because he was never a villain from their perspective. The characters aren't omniscient judges of lifetime moral fiber; they can only go on what they know, and none of them were around for Iroh's campaigns.

I personally love that for most of the series, there was a good chance the good guys and the bad guys weren't entirely sure of each other's names. And that played directly into how they responded to each other.
Logged

Loopy
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 31661


I'm Loooooooopy!


« Reply #6062 on: Apr 20, 2017 06:01 pm »


http://skyfreim.deviantart.com/art/Azula-616311977
Logged

Antiyonder
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 2083


« Reply #6063 on: May 05, 2017 09:14 pm »

No one had a problem with Iroh because he was never a villain from their perspective. The characters aren't omniscient judges of lifetime moral fiber; they can only go on what they know, and none of them were around for Iroh's campaigns.

I personally love that for most of the series, there was a good chance the good guys and the bad guys weren't entirely sure of each other's names. And that played directly into how they responded to each other.

Makes me wish that there was a comic back then or some story shortly after The Western Air temple actually addressing that Zuko didn't know their names.

Especially as it gives Katara a chance to really get on his case: "So, your life revolved around finding the Avatar and chasing us relentlessly and you don't even know our names?"

Maybe Zuko nervously responds "Umm, didn't seem important I guess.:-)"
Logged
Loopy
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 31661


I'm Loooooooopy!


« Reply #6064 on: May 10, 2017 06:47 pm »

That would be great. Cheesy

I'm also grateful that so far it's plausible that the gAang still doesn't know how Zuko got his scar.
Logged

ByStorm
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 3129


Look with favor upon a bold beginning.


« Reply #6065 on: May 13, 2017 10:17 am »

That would be great. Cheesy

I'm also grateful that so far it's plausible that the gAang still doesn't know how Zuko got his scar.

I believe he could've eventually told Aang and Katara, or Toph. But I doubt Zuko would want to relive that over and over. He just wants to be done with that part of his past and not be defined by its mistakes.
Logged

"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their owl husbands." - The Owl Bible , 1 Strigidae Bubo 3:5. Taken from a typo in 1 Peter 3:5.
azure_flame
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1962



« Reply #6066 on: Apr 15, 2018 01:45 am »

This actually says some fairly thought-provoking stuff on the subject of forgiveness and redemption if you give it a chance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hDxcHZi30c
Logged

please support The Search - An Avatar: The Last Airbender Film http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-search-an-avatar-the-last-airbender-film
Urmom666
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #6067 on: Jul 16, 2018 02:39 pm »

I just have to wonder, how many of you guys were expecting for this discussion/debate to go on for as long as it did and pick up the amount of traction that it did? Seriously, I don’t think I’ve ever seen any other villain whose redeemability (or lack thereof) has been the topic of such controversy.

You have guys like Zuko, Vader, and Vegeta who all found redemption at the end and once we learned their backstories it all added up and made perfect sense.

Then you have guys like Palpatine, Sauron, Frieza, Joker etc. where their names wouldn’t even be mentioned with the word “redemption” without laughter.

I guess what I’m driving at is what other villains can anyone think of that don't really fall into either one of the above categories?
Logged
Loopy
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 31661


I'm Loooooooopy!


« Reply #6068 on: Jul 16, 2018 07:12 pm »

I reblogged a good post on the subject of Azula's redeemability:

"...That said, a key component to any good redemption arc is that the character addresses the root of their mistakes. Zuko learns that his father’s favor is hollow and attaining it won’t bring back the sense of safety he had as a child. He also comes to realize that his father is not the final moral authority, and that he has to trust his own moral judgement based on the things he has seen in exile. His redemption arc is complicated by the fact that it’s also a very satisfying recovery arc as well, which Azula’s would also have to be.

"So what is the root of Azula’s cruelty? What does she need to realize about herself and others? She has to learn to stop using people as objects, that other people are as human, as important, and as intrinsically valuable as she is and have worth outside what they can do for her. Throughout the show her greatest cruelties are committed in the service of forcing someone into the position of helping to prop up Azula’s painfully fragile self image. Azula has to let go of that, to face her fears and sense of inadequacy, to come to terms with what it means that she isn’t perfect, that she is simply a human among humans. This is also what would turn her redemption arc into a redemption and recovery arc.

"And here comes a part that a lot of people forget when trying to make a redemption arc. If Azula’s problem is that she uses other people as objects, then the thing she needs to learn is that she has no right to her victims. She cannot use them to further her own redemption or to confirm it, because she cannot use them at all. She used them to service her psychological needs before, and the change she needs to make is to stop doing that. If she is truly to reach the growth and change needed for a satisfying redemption arc, she needs to realize she has no right to their time, their forgiveness, or a continued relationship with them."
Logged

Tamerlan Pahlavi
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 9095


Selam, Sahib


« Reply #6069 on: Jul 18, 2018 01:33 pm »

I just have to wonder, how many of you guys were expecting for this discussion/debate to go on for as long as it did and pick up the amount of traction that it did? Seriously, I don’t think I’ve ever seen any other villain whose redeemability (or lack thereof) has been the topic of such controversy.

This debate is one of the head examples on tvtropes on the topic "broken base". I'm sure there will never be agreement unless the writers either give her a happy ending (which I believe is more likely given the overall tone of the show) or a villain's death. But since she's the most interesting, threatening and compelling villain in the entire show and there is still money to be made on the comics I certainly don't expect the resolution in this decade.

Anyway, since morality is a spectrum, someone's gotta be in the middle of it. Admittedly, she's a rare case and I can't think of anyone close to her case either.

"And here comes a part that a lot of people forget when trying to make a redemption arc. If Azula’s problem is that she uses other people as objects, then the thing she needs to learn is that she has no right to her victims. She cannot use them to further her own redemption or to confirm it, because she cannot use them at all. She used them to service her psychological needs before, and the change she needs to make is to stop doing that. If she is truly to reach the growth and change needed for a satisfying redemption arc, she needs to realize she has no right to their time, their forgiveness, or a continued relationship with them."

No right to them, certainly, but grace perhaps. Mai and Ty Lee want nothing to do with her and would prefer her imprisoned somewhere far away. As of now only Ursa and Zuko love her but neither of them are willing to tolerate her continued bad behavior. They'd reach out and try to help but only when she stops being a danger to others. Dunno what her goals are now but I see hope. Would be interesting if she developed a more healthy friendship with the girls she broke out from the madhouse but it's clear she's also using that debt to keep them close. Can't wait to see more.

Although, I think craving the love of others is natural and even normal and fulfilling your duties to others should entitle you to some rights in return. The fact that people like Azula abuse this natural state of affairs is a different matter, they're cheating the system.

You once mentioned you heard there might be a comic centered around her specifically? Where did you pick up this information?
« Last Edit: Jul 18, 2018 01:37 pm by Tamerlan Pahlavi » Logged
Loopy
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 31661


I'm Loooooooopy!


« Reply #6070 on: Jul 18, 2018 09:45 pm »

Oh, there's not even rumor of it. I just want it. I talk it up as a way of trying to will it into existence. Cheesy

But yeah, I agree with you. I can see an avenue where Azula chooses not to use people, but then assistance and given freely and without her acceptance. If earlier actions of Azula's had inspired that gift, then it can feel like a really powerful payoff.
Logged

Urmom666
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #6071 on: Jul 18, 2018 09:54 pm »

I just have to wonder, how many of you guys were expecting for this discussion/debate to go on for as long as it did and pick up the amount of traction that it did? Seriously, I don’t think I’ve ever seen any other villain whose redeemability (or lack thereof) has been the topic of such controversy.

This debate is one of the head examples on tvtropes on the topic "broken base". I'm sure there will never be agreement unless the writers either give her a happy ending (which I believe is more likely given the overall tone of the show) or a villain's death. But since she's the most interesting, threatening and compelling villain in the entire show and there is still money to be made on the comics I certainly don't expect the resolution in this decade.

Anyway, since morality is a spectrum, someone's gotta be in the middle of it. Admittedly, she's a rare case and I can't think of anyone close to her case either.

Exactly. I just realized that Dubya was still president when this thread started. And if you’re correct, Trump will be gone by the time it ends. It definitely seems like whoever wants to a create a character with a comparable level of controversy will have their work cut out for them.



Logged
Pages: « previous page   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines LLC
MySQL | PHP | XHTML | CSS