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Question: Is Azula capable of redemption and if so, will it happen?
Yes, but won't change - 61 (24.7%)
Yes and will do something good - 103 (41.7%)
No - 83 (33.6%)
Total Voters: 247

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Author Topic: Azula and Evil... Redemption?  (Read 300948 times)
Colonel_Brian
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« Reply #6025 on: Mar 26, 2016 02:37 pm »

That sounds good to me. And you are correct that the ego never goes away. It's just human nature. The best she can do is learn to control it. Though that would again tell me that her journey will consist of going down another wrong path (and that path will be even more difficult to get off from than the one she used to be on. If she sees that she is doing things that coincide with good, she might be tempted to stay there, since she'll delude herself by pointing to the results), before learning additional lessons that sets down the right one.
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« Reply #6026 on: Mar 26, 2016 02:42 pm »

Well, the AtLA comics are ongoing, so yeah, Azula can make mistakes an continually learn new things. I think her official "redemption" point would be when she's no longer an antagonist, but she certainly can keep developing as a character after that. As long as fans will shill out and Azula still has some flaws and misguided thoughts to sort out, stories can naturally be told involving her.
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Loopy
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« Reply #6027 on: Apr 04, 2016 03:23 pm »

Do I need a spoiler warning for Smoke and Shadows up here? Most of the previous conversation seemed to just go ahead and mention the stuff in the comics.

Anyway, I saw a post on tumblr that seems to address my confusion about whether Azula is still loyal to Ozai:

In “The Search” we see Azula at her lowest. She is shown to be in far worse condition than when we last saw her in the finale of ATLA. Her hallucinations have gotten far worse along with her paranoia. It’s gotten to the point where she believes her mother is somehow plotting against her and was able to turn everyone she loved against her. Her father, of course, took advantage of her fragile state and gave her the letter that would ensure her place on the throne again as Fire Lord.

At the end Azula has her mother pinned against a wall and is on the verge of striking her down…until Noriko cups her face gently and apologizes for not loving her enough. Azula is frozen to the spot, her emotions scratching underneath the surface screaming to be released, as tears start to form in her eyes. Zuko takes the opportunity to separate the two. Azula in her anguish, goes after her brother who tries not fight her back but instead dodges her at every throw she gives him. When he is able to knock her down, she tries to convince him that this is what they both need and that he needs her. He denies it and she responds with “Oh, stop kidding yourself! The other morning when you had me over that cliff, why didn’t you just let go? You could’ve gotten rid of me and this letter!” It almost seems that here, Azula in someway just wanted it to end…she believes that she cannot be loved subconsciously. She feels as if her brother truly does not love her…that Zuko hates her. Azula on some level, needs to know why he didn’t kill her. It’s almost like…she is grasping onto some sort of hope. 

Zuko, throughout this entire comic, has been patient with Azula, letting anger blind him once when he holds her over that cliff. He has been trying to show love but never really knew how to show it to his sister. Their relationship is complicated but at the same time their bond is stronger than any I have seen on the show.  At the end though, he says this to her “That morning on the cliff…Azula, our relationship is so messed up. It’s been like that as long as I can remember. And maybe it’ll be like that for the rest of our lives. But one fact never changes. No matter what, you’re still my sister.”

That right there is what changed Azula. No matter what, Zuko will always love/care for her. He will not give up on her. She will always be his sister. Azula has never been shown unconditional love by anyone in her entire life. No one has shown her love. Zuko was the last person Azula expected to receive love from. It means so much to her with those words he spoke. It affects her so greatly, that she drops that letter and runs away crying. Azula realized in that moment, she cannot go through with her plan. How can Azula take down the only love she has ever received from anyone? How could she take her brother down after he showed her love? Azula can’t. Azula is the type to be attracted to love and she will hold onto it with her life. After Zuko showed her love, Azula literally attached herself to him. That’s putting it lightly. Dropping that letter was symbolic of her changing.

That love was powerful enough to make her accept that Zuko’s destiny was to be Fire Lord and not herself. Realize that her father has used her and never once cared about her, hence why she disowns him in “Smoke and Shadow” by referring to him as “Ozai” and no longer “Father”. Azula freed herself from the prison that was her mind and is shaping her own destiny to whatever she chooses it to be…and that choice is to aid Zuko.

Whether Zuko wanted it or not, he now has her love, dedication, protectiveness, and loyalty. Azula is happier because of him. Azula is displaying her emotions to Zuko of all people when she has him alone. In that crypt she lets him know that he is the reason she is Free for the first time in all her life.

This is why she changed.

This is why she took that bold step in choosing this path.

Love is the reason why Azula now has that light within herself.

So, what does everyone here think? I'm not sure myself, as I think it's possibly what Gene Yang intended insofar as Azula transferring her loyalty from Ozai to Zuko in a way, but at the same time, I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense that Azula is pushing an agenda of Fear despite having been touched and transformed by Love. Is the denial I see in Azula meant to explain a contradiction like this? Is it enough to explain the contradiction?
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Gundleer
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« Reply #6028 on: Apr 05, 2016 01:18 am »

Old habits die hard, I do think she has changed but she's not quite got there yet and using fear is all she knows that works. Although in fairness she does not appear to be using fear to control her kemurikage sisters. Could stopping using fear be the next step for her in whatever the next trilogy is. And I think this will be resolved when she finally confronts Ursa.
« Last Edit: Apr 05, 2016 03:35 am by Gundleer » Logged

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shorewall
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« Reply #6029 on: Apr 05, 2016 03:17 am »

All that post concludes is that Azula has decided to put her talents to use for Zuko.  And from what I see, she is.  It's like having a yandere girlfriend.  They are positive towards you, but not in the way you would like.  Azula is different from that, but it's something.  She wants to help Zuko, and this is how she helps.  Cheesy  Or at least she thinks she's helping.

I like it, and it would be nice if it were true.  I don't know if I totally buy it, but I have not read any of the comics.  It could very well be true.  The Woobification of Azula!  Wink
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"The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light."
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« Reply #6030 on: Apr 05, 2016 06:11 pm »

I can't help but think, though, that if Azula really wanted to help, she wouldn't be working so hard to change Zuko, she'd be trying to supplement his efforts with her own more fear-based strategies. She's in denial and either wants to have the simpler world view validated for her own sake or- and I just came up with this other theory today- she wants to be positively proven wrong once and for all.

The way the latter works is that I figure Azula still has a messed up worldview thanks to Ozai, so even if she really thinks deep down that Love is better and has transferred her full loyalty to Zuko, she still doesn't trust that Love can be given without being earned, and she's worried that she'll eventually do something to lose Zuko's love. So she's forcing him to make a grand proof of Love's superiority to Fear by making him pledge to Love her forever no matter what she does.

I think that's kind of a stretch, though.
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shorewall
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« Reply #6031 on: Apr 05, 2016 06:29 pm »

Denial sounds good to me.  Wink

But it could be that she is doing an experiment to see how love can handle a situation like this.  Azula has always been able to handle herself, and if she is going to allow herself to love, she needs to know that it can get things done.
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"The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light."
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« Reply #6032 on: Apr 05, 2016 06:42 pm »

Well, I'd say that the denial is the only thing standing in the way of an unbiased experiment. Mai already proved to Azula that Love trumps Fear.

I was trying to figure out if Azula could be a conscious proponent of Fear (even if she's subconsciously hoping for Love) while still valuing Zuko's treatment of her over Ozai's.
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Gundleer
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« Reply #6033 on: Apr 05, 2016 06:51 pm »

Some people have gone with the theory that she's using reverse psychology on him and her actions are forcing him to face that part of him that is the same as Azula and Ozai and through this Zuko will find a balance between the good and evil sides of himself, becoming who he needs to be. I'm still not sure about this , I like it but it does not ring quite true.

I think she geinuinly thinks she's protecting him but she sees his kindness as a weakness others will exploit and she thinks he needs to toughen up.

« Last Edit: Apr 06, 2016 03:15 pm by Gundleer » Logged

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shorewall
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« Reply #6034 on: Apr 05, 2016 07:18 pm »

Twisted Azula is so attractive.  Like, her weird mind.  As she reforms (if she does), it only gets safer.  Chan, you didn't deserve her!
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"The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light."
Atren
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« Reply #6035 on: Apr 06, 2016 07:09 am »

I can buy Azula being in denial. In fact I wondered if that speech was meant more to convince herself than convert Zuko.
« Last Edit: Apr 06, 2016 09:25 am by Atren » Logged
Loopy
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« Reply #6036 on: Apr 06, 2016 06:42 pm »

Some people have gone with the theory that she's using reverse psychology on him and her actions are forcing him to face that part of him that is the same as Azula and Ozai and through this Zuko will find a balance between the good and evil sides of himself, becoming who he needs to be. I'm still not sure about this , I like it but it does not ring quite true.

I think she geinuinly thinks she's protecting him but she sees his kindness as a weakness others will exploit and she thinks he needs to toughen up.

I can't think of anything to contradict this, but it seems fundamental enough that there would have been an explicit hint if it was meant to be the case.
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Gundleer
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« Reply #6037 on: Apr 07, 2016 12:53 am »

The only possible hint is that she seems pleased when Zuko is giving his apology speak to the public. It could be because she has something else going on plan wise and Zuko's sorrow is what she needed but I dont think its that.

Gene and bryke have left to much to be answered in another book to work it out.
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TheBeachandAzula
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« Reply #6038 on: May 06, 2016 06:24 am »

Reminds me of what she kept saying in The Search to Zuko "Even when you're strong, you're weak".
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« Reply #6039 on: May 09, 2016 09:04 pm »


http://cleverboi.deviantart.com/art/Azula-606654493
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Avatar Symbolism Fan
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« Reply #6040 on: Aug 29, 2016 04:30 am »

I like the way the comics have given Azula an "Hazy Feel Turn" instead of just a normal "Heel-Face Turn" redemption.
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« Reply #6041 on: Sep 13, 2016 07:30 pm »

Even after the comics end. I say yes but what about you?

Azula's redemption is so unclear I think the writers should never make her actions clear. Leave it to the fans to decide if her actions in Smoke and Shadow were stealth mentoring Zuko or not.

Maybe Smoke and Shadow should be her finale appearance in the franchise and North and South be the final Avatar comic. 99% sure that's not going to happen but I can dream.

So, should Azula's finale appearance in these comics make it clear of how her story ends? Should redemption for Azula remain ambiguous or should she get a clear redemption/no redemption?

This will be my last Azula thread for awhile so I would like lots of comments and opinions.
« Last Edit: Sep 13, 2016 08:17 pm by Avatar Symbolism Fan » Logged
Navyninja87
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« Reply #6042 on: Sep 13, 2016 08:03 pm »

I always thought she was crazy. Team Avatar was lucky she didn't become FireLord. Zuko was a healthier option for the Fire Nation once he figured out his past but I think that redemption is possible if she wants it. Mind you, I don't think it possible but it's an option that ff writers can still take.
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« Reply #6043 on: Sep 13, 2016 08:06 pm »

So it would be bad decision in your opinion if the writers make it canon because it would be out of character for Azula to want redemption?
« Last Edit: Sep 13, 2016 08:25 pm by Avatar Symbolism Fan » Logged
Navyninja87
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« Reply #6044 on: Sep 13, 2016 08:41 pm »

No, what I meant by not possible was that the writers are probably never going that route. I'd be all for it if it were canon. She is Avatar Roku's great-granddaughter, after all. Hm. you've given me an idea.
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doratchi
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« Reply #6045 on: Sep 14, 2016 03:26 am »

How can you be so sure that North and South is not the last comics?

And I don't think it's an option for her, but maybe it should stay this way. But as I erote before, I think we are going to see more fire nation in North and South (because if Aang is not at the south pole, why would he be on the cover?)
But today we are finally getting answer for my theory
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« Reply #6046 on: Sep 14, 2016 04:32 am »

It's not that I'm sure because I'm not at all, it's just I hope NaS is the last comics because I want Azula's actions to remain ambiguous. I hope she's not in NaS because I'm afraid it will confirm the truth of her actions (which ever they may be, good or bad). I want NaS to 99% focus on Katara and Sokka and barely on the others so they won't likely confront Azula.

I'm probably going to have a head canon that NaS is the finale comic if it's perfect or near perfect in my eyes. If we get more fire nation most likely we'll get more Azula. I don't want the ambiguity to be destroyed.

After NaS they can do what they want with Azula. I got what I wanted out of the four comics so far: the mystery of Ursa is revealed, Toph and her dad begin to patch things up, scenes that connect with the Korra timeline, and finally, in my opinion, the ambiguous redemption or semi-redemption of Azula. I hope this fifth comic is mostly about the conflict at the Southern Water Tribe or if there is sub plot/plots they don't involve anything around Azula.

Also, if this book will be the last one I get then then I pray it will not have a sequel hook. Let the conflict(s?) for NaS to be completed by the end of the book.

So, yeah I'm really excited for NaS but I want it to be the last comic and if it isn't then maybe it can be an head canon finale. I really don't know what story they can make after NaS that will not make me nervous about Azula's fate.
« Last Edit: Sep 14, 2016 05:15 am by Avatar Symbolism Fan » Logged
doratchi
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« Reply #6047 on: Sep 14, 2016 04:54 am »

It's not that I'm sure because I'm not at all, it's just I hope NaS is the last comics because I want Azula's actions to remain ambiguous. I hope she's not in NaS because I'm afraid it will confirm the truth of her actions (which ever they may be, good or bad). I want NaS to 99% focus on Katara and Sokka and barely on the others so they won't likely confront Azula.

I'm probably going to have a head canon that NaS is the finale comic if it's perfect or near perfect in my eyes. If we get more fire nation most likely we'll get more Azula. I don't want the ambiguity to be destroyed.

After NaS they can do what they want with Azula. I got what I wanted out of the four comics so far and I hope this fifth comic is simply about the conflict at the Southern Water Tribe or if there is sub plot/plots they don't involve anything around Azula. Also if this book will be the last one I get then then I hope that it will not have a sequel hook. Just let this particular conflict end for NaS.

So, yeah I'm really excited for NaS but I want it to be the last comic and if it isn't then maybe it can be it as an head canon. I really don't know what story they can make after NaS that will not make me nervous about Azula's fate.

Same here
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Avatar Symbolism Fan
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« Reply #6048 on: Sep 14, 2016 05:33 am »

Wait a minute, Toph is clearly at the Southern Tribe because she wearing a coat to keep warm and she will most likely arrive in part 2, what if Aang also arrives in part 2?

And if Aang is at the South tribe in part 2 and/or 3 then Azula will most likely never appear. Zuko is known to arrive at tribe in part 3 so him fighting Azula seems unlikely at best. Aang is shown fighting someone on the cover of part 2 but Zuko appears to not be with him (Aang's role is seemingly about helping Zuko with something).

The cover of part 3 appears to have Aang and Toph running with Katara and Soka. We know Zuko is going to show up at the tribe.

If the whole gaang are at the tribe by the story's conclusion then it would make perfect since and pretty heartwarming to end the comics at North and South because that's where the show began at! Classic Book Ends trope.

It would only work if they all show up but they might.
« Last Edit: Sep 14, 2016 05:54 am by Avatar Symbolism Fan » Logged
Icy_Ashford
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« Reply #6049 on: Sep 14, 2016 06:25 am »

We already have a redemption thread for Azula in the ATLA board. "Should Azula's Possible Redemption Just Remain Ambiguous?" moved to the ATLA board and merged with "Azula and Evil... Redemption?"

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