AvatarSpirit.Net
Nov 20, 2019 09:41 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
ASN Mainsite: AvatarSpirit.net
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Poll
Question: Is Azula capable of redemption and if so, will it happen?
Yes, but won't change - 64 (25.3%)
Yes and will do something good - 106 (41.9%)
No - 83 (32.8%)
Total Voters: 253

Pages: « previous page next page »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Azula and Evil... Redemption?  (Read 374334 times)
Scar in your meadow
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 95


« Reply #50 on: Oct 21, 2007 05:46 pm »

Yeah, but this is TV. People change very easily. So, who knows? Still got 15 more episodes to go.

Anyway, I'm real glad that they showed a different side to this girl. It was actually exactly what I predicted she would be (awkward, unable to relate to others), but I enjoyed it nonetheless. Damn, this show rocks.
Logged
Redthorn
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1102

"Dracarys! Freedom! DRACARYS!"


« Reply #51 on: Oct 21, 2007 05:52 pm »

Quote
She can plan well ahead in detail, and doesn't give in to frustration (she comes up with a clever plan instead). This is completely contrary to the definitions of antisocial personality disorder.

And my source is my psych professor.

I'd like to know how your Psych Prof explains John Wayne Gacy then. He planned ahead in detail, didn't give in to frustration, and he was most definitely, absolutely, a sociopath.  About a dozen of his victims still haven't been identified.

Logged

avatar4ever
Banned Member
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 387


« Reply #52 on: Oct 21, 2007 06:33 pm »

I would suggest you look up Dr. Helen Morrison, the one who examined John Wayne Gacy. She said that Gacy did not fit into any psychological profile associated with other serial killers and that the psychological reasons for his crimes most likely will never be known.
Logged
Redthorn
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1102

"Dracarys! Freedom! DRACARYS!"


« Reply #53 on: Oct 21, 2007 06:41 pm »

I would suggest you look up all the other people who said he's a sociopath. One dissenting "expert" opinion does not a fact make. (Look at the "experts" they've got out there saying global warming is a myth.)

Logged

avatar4ever
Banned Member
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 387


« Reply #54 on: Oct 21, 2007 06:52 pm »

You mean a psychiatrist who has been renowned for her studies and spent years researching Gacy and interviewing him personally wouldn't know what she was talking about compared to the outside observers. Sure she doesn't know what a sociopath is.
Logged
HVulpes
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 122


« Reply #55 on: Oct 21, 2007 06:53 pm »

 In our world, Azula would likely remain evil and dangerous. However, we are talking about a show were people shoot fire from their mouths... there is wiggle room for a redeemption. Yet given her personality it would likely need a remarkable plot device for that kind of redeemption. Like a near-death experience or something like realignment of her soul.

 One of my thought would be a non-elemental power of the Avatar to heal damaged souls through use of their power. He has demonstated the ability to see visions of the past and present, see spirits, and astral project him as well. So it might not be impossible. Of course it might change the Azula character we know.

 If she makes it to the end, Aang needs to carefully manage her... which given thousands of lifetimes with his preincarnation memories might be possible.

 Just some of my random thoughts.
Logged
primeprotects
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 2575


I am a Sukiteer. (OLAF!) [Purple!] {BSG}


« Reply #56 on: Oct 21, 2007 06:55 pm »

In regards to the poll, I think Azula has the capability of change, but I have no doubts that she won't. She seems too ingrained in her ways to transform. Even though "The Beach" showed her more as a teenager than the crazy evil princess we've known her to be, all the compliments she gave, and the way she went about playing volleyball, says to me that at her core she is something of a sociopath. And without any sort of treatment I don't think she can 180 on us anytime soon.

Plus, too many characters redeeming themselves by the end of the series would be a bit much.
Logged

"Well, I'm back." - Samwise Gamgee The Return of the King
Avatar Yuffie
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 3491


thank god


« Reply #57 on: Oct 21, 2007 07:05 pm »

I love Azula as an evil witch. And I'm happy with her characterization in The Beach. The term "Fish Out Of Water" really applied to her when she tried to interact with normal people.

And I like the fact that in some levels she does show a hint of caring to Mai, Ty Lee, and even Zuko. Hey, there must be a reason Zuko still remembers when he and Azula play as children back in the day, after all.

Unfortunately, her grill for perfection as a soldier and as a fighter and her cruel streak is most likely her core character, and no campfire is ever going to fix that. I know, and fear, that she'll fall in the end.
Logged

Be one with Mother Russia? Y/Y/tomatoes


iKeep: Love Amongst the Dragons; Zuko's obsession with Aang; Zuko's inner fire
Kookyz
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 38


« Reply #58 on: Oct 21, 2007 07:48 pm »

I love her and her evilself. She doesn't need to change. Cheesy
Logged

Gabrobot
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 19



« Reply #59 on: Oct 21, 2007 07:58 pm »

I'd like to know how your Psych Prof explains John Wayne Gacy then. He planned ahead in detail, didn't give in to frustration, and he was most definitely, absolutely, a sociopath.  About a dozen of his victims still haven't been identified.

How could he be defined as a sociopath? Given those points, he doesn't fit either the DSM-IV for antisocial personality disorder or the ICD-10 for dissocial personality disorder.

It is important to note that psychology is extremely complex and people don't always fall into easily diagnosed categories. (Certainly John Wayne Gacy is a complete mess of different factors) Many abnormal psychological conditions are simply normal behaviors taken to an extreme.
Logged
Redthorn
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1102

"Dracarys! Freedom! DRACARYS!"


« Reply #60 on: Oct 21, 2007 08:03 pm »

Quote
he doesn't fit either the DSM-IV for antisocial personality disorder or the ICD-10 for dissocial personality disorder.

Not every sociopath needs to have -- or even usually has -- ALL of the symptoms. It's not like diabetes.  In the DSM-IV, you only need three of the nine listed criteria for a diagnosis.  John Wayne Gacy still fits.

Similarly, Azula fits seven of nine criteria from the DSM-IV. That's plenty. Nine out of nine isn't required or typical.

Logged

Khol
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 68


« Reply #61 on: Oct 21, 2007 08:16 pm »

Seeing as this is a TV show, it's possible that she could change her ways, though it probably wouldn't be because she doesn't want to do the "wrong" thing anymore. My bets are on that if she DOES end up on the path to redemption, she'll only have ended up there because she was forced -- for example, if Ozai turned on her (with thoughts that she might assassinate him or something along those lines) and she had no choice but to run from him.

That's probably just wishful thinking, though... Smiley
Logged

" Azutara is like the new Zutara. ...but Tyzula is still better. "
" Hm... 'Zutarian' sounds like an alien race. 'Tyzula' sounds like a giant monster that has it out for Tokyo."
" Exactly. Everyone loves giant, Tokyo-destroying monsters more than aliens. "
Redthorn
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1102

"Dracarys! Freedom! DRACARYS!"


« Reply #62 on: Oct 21, 2007 08:31 pm »

I think redemption is unlikely for Azula, mostly because I think Iroh's supposed to be a pretty good judge of character, and even he thinks "She's crazy and needs to go down."   

But I also think it's unlikely she'll be directly killed by anyone, not even Aang or Zuko.

Possibilities:

1) She tries the "redirect the lightning" trick after seeing Iroh or Zuko pull it off, but doesn't know about the "Stay away from the heart" issue and accidentally electrocutes herself. This has the advantage of being a nice "clean" death for a kids' show. Iroh was very emphatic about the dangers of this technique and what happens if you screw it up, so I wouldn't be surprised if it resurfaced. (Wouldn't be surprised if it didn't, either, though.)

2) She's not killed, but is imprisoned/exiled permanently.
Logged

fireywaters
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 5043


Peace on Avatar, before peace in real life


« Reply #63 on: Oct 21, 2007 08:41 pm »

I think redemption is unlikely for Azula, mostly because I think Iroh's supposed to be a pretty good judge of character, and even he thinks "She's crazy and needs to go down."  

But I also think it's unlikely she'll be directly killed by anyone, not even Aang or Zuko.

Possibilities:

1) She tries the "redirect the lightning" trick after seeing Iroh or Zuko pull it off, but doesn't know about the "Stay away from the heart" issue and accidentally electrocutes herself. This has the advantage of being a nice "clean" death for a kids' show. Iroh was very emphatic about the dangers of this technique and what happens if you screw it up, so I wouldn't be surprised if it resurfaced. (Wouldn't be surprised if it didn't, either, though.)

2) She's not killed, but is imprisoned/exiled permanently.

A way a Azula might go, is for her craziness to cause her to kill herself. Like the way the original Terra died in the Teen Titans comics at the conclusion of the Judas Contract storyline. She couldn't take defeat, even when her boss Deathstroke The Terminator surrendered, she tried to kill everybody, instead ending up killing herself.  Maybe something like that could happen to Azula.

Ozai surrenders or killed, the Fire Nation surrenders. Everyone accepts that the Avatar defeated the Fire Nation except for Azula, who is just too crazy to stop fighting, and will only accept victory or death.
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2007 08:53 pm by fireywaters » Logged

Peace between the Fire Nation and the other nations, before peace in our world
Dusk Bender
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 455

All I require is the moon...


« Reply #64 on: Oct 21, 2007 09:04 pm »

I've thought she's a sociopath (or something very close to one) ever since her first few appearances:
She controls her troops and even 'friends' (well Ty Lee anyway) with fear (made easier by her powerful bending) and or emotional manipulation. She doesn't really care about anyone around her, except if she can use them, just herself.
"The Beach" had a moment where frankly I think she was out of character: when the girls are trying to get Zuko to open up she seems to care and want to help... That's not really like Azula. The whole snap at Ty Lee and then apology had a self centred reason: she knew if she acted the right way Ty would explain to her how to chat up boys. Through most of the confession thing she was very dismissive of Mai and Ty Lee's reasons for leaving home and not showing any emotion.

It'll take quite a few more moments like when she seemed to want to help Zuko open up to convince me she's not a sociopath (or something similar).
Logged

You burn like the sun, but all I require is the moon.
fireywaters
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 5043


Peace on Avatar, before peace in real life


« Reply #65 on: Oct 21, 2007 09:08 pm »

Azula defentely considers caring about others, and having human emotions other than superioty to everyone a weakness.

In the last episode, she reminds a lot of Mandy in the Grim Adventures Of Billy And Mandy episode Crushed, Mandy had a crush on a kid, and did anything not have those feelings anymore, including have Grim rip out her heart.
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2007 09:33 pm by fireywaters » Logged

Peace between the Fire Nation and the other nations, before peace in our world
avatar4ever
Banned Member
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 387


« Reply #66 on: Oct 21, 2007 09:29 pm »

Off-topic about Mandy. She was going to have Grim rip her heart out, but then he thought of another way to get rid of her boy trouble, by having the boy end up being interested in her.

I find it funny that many of Grey DeLisle's characters are alike, but vastly different. Mandy and Azula are the most alike, but Mandy probably could beat Azula. When truly angry Mandy possesses supernatural powers that can frighten Grim, meaning she has complete power over death itself.
Logged
fireywaters
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 5043


Peace on Avatar, before peace in real life


« Reply #67 on: Oct 21, 2007 09:37 pm »

Off-topic about Mandy. She was going to have Grim rip her heart out, but then he thought of another way to get rid of her boy trouble, by having the boy end up being interested in her.

I find it funny that many of Grey DeLisle's characters are alike, but vastly different. Mandy and Azula are the most alike, but Mandy probably could beat Azula. When truly angry Mandy possesses supernatural powers that can frighten Grim, meaning she has complete power over death itself.

Off topic, I know that, I saw the episode.

Mandy did show real emotion in "Big Boogie Adventues" when it looked like Billy was gone forever, she almost cried. I guarantee you, you will never see Azula show that type of emotion, at the very least, show that emotion and actully mean it.

You know what might have a good minor character to add, a kid that has a crush on Azula, who she constantly rejects. In other words, Azula's own Irwing. Though I wouln't make him a nerd, just a big egoed Fire Nation teen, like Agni's boyfriend.
Logged

Peace between the Fire Nation and the other nations, before peace in our world
avatar4ever
Banned Member
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 387


« Reply #68 on: Oct 21, 2007 09:39 pm »

Mandy has emotions, but don't let that fool you, she is much more dangerous than Azula. I'd take fire and lightning over a cynical girl who can control death anyday. She doesn't even have to show she has power in order to intimidate someone or exert complete control over them.
Logged
fireywaters
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 5043


Peace on Avatar, before peace in real life


« Reply #69 on: Oct 21, 2007 09:45 pm »

Mandy has emotions, but don't let that fool you, she is much more dangerous than Azula. I'd take fire and lightning over a cynical girl who can control death anyday. She doesn't even have to show she has power in order to intimidate someone or exert complete control over them.

I am not trying to argue with you on who is more powerful, just pointing out a difference.
Logged

Peace between the Fire Nation and the other nations, before peace in our world
avatar4ever
Banned Member
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 387


« Reply #70 on: Oct 21, 2007 09:55 pm »

I'm not arguing, just stating that in my opinion Mandy is more powerful than Azula.
Logged
fireywaters
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 5043


Peace on Avatar, before peace in real life


« Reply #71 on: Oct 21, 2007 10:01 pm »

Mandy is more powerful that Azula. But I do honestly think, Azula is more evil than Mandy. Mandy won't admit it, but she cares about other people, mainly Billy. And she has never tried to use her power to rule the world yet. If Azula had that power, she would have wasted no time taking over the world.

Another character they could have had at the party in The Beach is the town snobby popular girl, who looks down on Azula (not knowing who she is of course), maybe even be voiced by Rachel MacFarline.
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2007 10:05 pm by fireywaters » Logged

Peace between the Fire Nation and the other nations, before peace in our world
Gabrobot
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 19



« Reply #72 on: Oct 22, 2007 04:12 am »

Not every sociopath needs to have -- or even usually has -- ALL of the symptoms. It's not like diabetes.  In the DSM-IV, you only need three of the nine listed criteria for a diagnosis.  John Wayne Gacy still fits.

Similarly, Azula fits seven of nine criteria from the DSM-IV. That's plenty. Nine out of nine isn't required or typical.

Like I said before, psychological issues are complex and don't neatly fall into different categories. Zuko fits at least 3 criteria for antisocial personality disorder as well, but I don't think many would agree that he's actually a sociopath. Wink
Logged
JuDee
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 707


^Credit to INTJf


« Reply #73 on: Oct 23, 2007 04:33 pm »

I voted for yes, she will somehow redeemed herself. I have only glanced trough all of the opinions here, for I have nothing about sociopath or any other psychological issues. I just think from the very beginning if Azula and Zuko were raised normal, they would be a normal teenager too.

And The Beach gave me hints about that opinion. Sure they don't have a very normal past back then. So I believe she'll redeem herself, but they should show it only in a soft way, making her remorsing 180 in front of our eye is just... unrespectable to her evil character. ;P
Logged

Keeps : Female Air Nomad's robe, Aang's Fire Nation school outfit, Joo Dee's official tour guide robe and The Day of Black Sun.
fireywaters
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 5043


Peace on Avatar, before peace in real life


« Reply #74 on: Oct 23, 2007 04:36 pm »

The Beach was not the first time, we saw a valenable human side of Azula, not by a long shot. We saw a valenable side in The Avatar State, so it is rare. We see more of her evil side.

Not everone can turn good in the end. This is not a chrismas special.
Logged

Peace between the Fire Nation and the other nations, before peace in our world
Pages: « previous page next page »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines LLC
MySQL | PHP | XHTML | CSS