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Author Topic: [101 & 102] The Boy In The Iceberg & The Avatar Returns  (Read 25706 times)
Psylum
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« Reply #25 on: Apr 02, 2007 04:02 am »

The look on Katara's face when Aang comes out of the iceberg can only be interpreted one way. "Oh a cute boy! I wonder if Gran-Gran will let me keep him!" Cheesy

I can only imagine how much faster their relationship would have developed if they'd had more time together at the South Pole.
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« Reply #26 on: Apr 05, 2007 02:39 pm »

Zuko was a total jerk in this episode. He was so rude to pretty much everybody that it made me cringe. And then he was a lot better in the next episode. I guess they had to have a clear villain in the first episode so people would watch, but it's kind of weird going back and watching it after seeing the rest of the series.
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« Reply #27 on: Apr 06, 2007 10:02 am »

Zuko was a total jerk in this episode. He was so rude to pretty much everybody that it made me cringe. And then he was a lot better in the next episode. I guess they had to have a clear villain in the first episode so people would watch, but it's kind of weird going back and watching it after seeing the rest of the series.

That's Season 1 Zuko for you.
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« Reply #28 on: Jun 02, 2007 01:39 pm »

I can scarcely believe it, but today was the first time I saw "The Boy in the Iceberg".  Obviously I was already aware of all the salient plot points.  But a couple of things struck me. 

Why is the FN ship booby trapped?  It seems a little counterproductive to have pitfalls and tripwires all over an active military vessel.  So did the FN come back after the battle and install the traps?  It's hard to believe that they would waste time and manpower to return to a beached vessel merely in order to render it inhospitable to WT interlopers.  (And leave all the weapons inside it behind.)  Why wouldn't they just dismantle it and reuse the scrap?   Huh

The second thing is more humorous.  Why do Katara's hair loopies just happen to be blown about by random breezes every time Aang looks at her?  Is it just a coincidence?  Or is Aang unconsciously generating air currents of love?   Kiss
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« Reply #29 on: Jun 02, 2007 11:52 pm »

I can scarcely believe it, but today was the first time I saw "The Boy in the Iceberg".
BLASPHEMY!! Tongue


Quote
Why is the FN ship booby trapped?  It seems a little counterproductive to have pitfalls and tripwires all over an active military vessel.  So did the FN come back after the battle and install the traps?  It's hard to believe that they would waste time and manpower to return to a beached vessel merely in order to render it inhospitable to WT interlopers.  (And leave all the weapons inside it behind.)  Why wouldn't they just dismantle it and reuse the scrap?   Huh
Hmmm... I don't think I've ever thought about that... Maybe there were booby traps to prevent any prisoners from getting out? The sailors on the ship would know where they were so that they don't fall for them, but prisoners wouldn't know. And the weapons were still there because all the sailors drowned or froze to death and no one came to aid them...


Quote
The second thing is more humorous.  Why do Katara's hair loopies just happen to be blown about by random breezes every time Aang looks at her?  Is it just a coincidence?  Or is Aang unconsciously generating air currents of love?   Kiss
Don't Gran Gran's hair loopies also do that flow-in-the-breeze thing too? ... Graang Graang FTW! Tongue
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« Reply #30 on: Jun 03, 2007 12:06 am »

The second thing is more humorous.  Why do Katara's hair loopies just happen to be blown about by random breezes every time Aang looks at her?  Is it just a coincidence?  Or is Aang unconsciously generating air currents of love?   Kiss
It has to be the currents of love. The same thing happened in CotL when he was gazing at her with glistening eyes. Cheesy It can't all be a coincidence.

Don't Gran Gran's hair loopies also do that flow-in-the-breeze thing too? ... Graang Graang FTW! Tongue
LMFAO! Sweet. XD
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« Reply #31 on: Jun 03, 2007 01:16 pm »

Hmmm... I don't think I've ever thought about that... Maybe there were booby traps to prevent any prisoners from getting out? The sailors on the ship would know where they were so that they don't fall for them, but prisoners wouldn't know. And the weapons were still there because all the sailors drowned or froze to death and no one came to aid them...

Interesting.  But why were they keeping prisoners and weapons in the same room?   Tongue

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Don't Gran Gran's hair loopies also do that flow-in-the-breeze thing too?

Yeah, they do; and Katara's loops often waft in the wind when Aang is not looking at her, or when she makes a sudden motion with her head.  But my point was that her loops are always on the go when Aang looks at her all puppy-dog-eyes, regardless of whether her head's moving or there's wind blowing...as Shizuma points out.   Wink   I just thought it was funny.   Smiley

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... Graang Graang FTW! Tongue

You....are a veritable monster of crack.   Cheesy
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« Reply #32 on: Jun 03, 2007 02:06 pm »

Interesting.  But why were they keeping prisoners and weapons in the same room?   Tongue

I believe there were booby traps in the weapons room because that is the first place an escaped prisoner would go. I mean you're at sea and aren't going to jump into the ocean. You'll want to try and overthrow the ship, therefore you'll need weapons.
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« Reply #33 on: Jun 03, 2007 02:23 pm »

^Hm, maybe.  But how would a prisoner know where the weapons room was?  The only way he would know is if he were a FN sailor.  But in that case...he'd know about the booby traps!   Cheesy
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« Reply #34 on: Jun 03, 2007 02:26 pm »

The ship was sent to attack the Water Tribe Village, but the warriors there defended and left the ship stranded in the middle of an ice field.  A storm was coming in and the crew had nowhere to go, so they passed the time by making booby traps. Tongue
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« Reply #35 on: Jun 03, 2007 02:36 pm »

^Hm, maybe.  But how would a prisoner know where the weapons room was?  The only way he would know is if he were a FN sailor.  But in that case...he'd know about the booby traps!   Cheesy

You're killin' me man! Cheesy Maybe on the way down to the prison hold the door to the weapons room was open and the prisoner saw it, or he saw the soldiers depositing their weapons after a battle while he was being brought down. Perhaps he just opened up all the doors until he found the one he was looking for.

So in that case the booby traps are just an added security feature in the worst case senario.
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« Reply #36 on: Jun 03, 2007 02:43 pm »

The ship was sent to attack the Water Tribe Village, but the warriors there defended and left the ship stranded in the middle of an ice field.  A storm was coming in and the crew had nowhere to go, so they passed the time by making booby traps. Tongue

Hey hey...I like that theory!   Very ingenious Kaiser... Cheesy   They knew they would probably die, and the ship would be appropriated by WTs, so they decided to make the acquisition as costly as possible.  

You're killin' me man!

I am persistent.   Cheesy

Quote
Maybe on the way down to the prison hold the door to the weapons room was open and the prisoner saw it, or he saw the soldiers depositing their weapons after a battle while he was being brought down.

But then, why wouldn't the FN anticipate that, and just do weapons deposition at a different time than prisoner storage?  A lot more convenient than having to step over wires everywhere you go... Tongue

Quote
Perhaps he just opened up all the doors until he found the one he was looking for.

That's a lot of doors to open!  Wouldn't he get caught by that time?   Cheesy

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« Reply #37 on: Jun 03, 2007 02:48 pm »

Quote
Maybe on the way down to the prison hold the door to the weapons room was open and the prisoner saw it, or he saw the soldiers depositing their weapons after a battle while he was being brought down.

But then, why wouldn't the FN anticipate that, and just do weapons deposition at a different time than prisoner storage?  A lot more convenient than having to step over wires everywhere you go... Tongue

Well from what we've seen of the Fire Nation soldiers sometimes they aren't the brightest bulbs in the bunch. i.e. The first episode of Season Two when the captain let out the secret that Zuko and Iroh were prisoners. Or perhaps when the soldiers were fooled by pentapox. I could see some of them getting very tired from battle and just being quick to deposit their weapons and armor.

Quote
Perhaps he just opened up all the doors until he found the one he was looking for.

That's a lot of doors to open!  Wouldn't he get caught by that time?   Cheesy
[/quote]

Yes probably, unless it was music night and the whole crew was on the deck. Grin
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dragonofthewest
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« Reply #38 on: Jun 03, 2007 03:15 pm »

Quote
But then, why wouldn't the FN anticipate that, and just do weapons deposition at a different time than prisoner storage?  A lot more convenient than having to step over wires everywhere you go... Tongue

Well from what we've seen of the Fire Nation soldiers sometimes they aren't the brightest bulbs in the bunch. i.e. The first episode of Season Two when the captain let out the secret that Zuko and Iroh were prisoners. Or perhaps when the soldiers were fooled by pentapox. I could see some of them getting very tired from battle and just being quick to deposit their weapons and armor.

Oh yeah, the rank and file have a tendency to be dunces.  But I don't think the people who designed and built the ship, or who plan FN military tactics, are that stupid.  Comets and metallurgy and sheer out-of-control ambition are useful, sure, but at some point you have to have a certain degree of intelligence to conquer the world.   Wink

Quote
Quote
That's a lot of doors to open!  Wouldn't he get caught by that time?
Yes probably, unless it was music night and the whole crew was on the deck. Grin

To the extreme misfortune of the rest of the Fire Navy, I'm pretty sure that was an Irohnian innovation.   Cheesy
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« Reply #39 on: Jun 03, 2007 03:31 pm »

^ Yes, that is a misfortune for the rest of the Fire Nation.

And I have one last word to say on the booby traps. It was a creative way for the writers to show Zuko Aang's location. Looking back to other fire nation ships, (really just Zuko's) there is no evidence of any booby traps so I believe that it was just a one-time occurence. Maybe something they had on the older ships for whatever reason that was phased out with the newer models.
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« Reply #40 on: Jun 03, 2007 03:41 pm »

^Oh yeah, I totally realize its effectiveness as a plot device.  I'm just questioning how well it fits in with the backstory.   Tongue  I have a hobby of niggling little details like that.
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Karalora
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« Reply #41 on: Jun 04, 2007 09:54 am »

From what I can tell, the only effect of Aang's tripping the trap was to release the flare. That suggests to me a burglar alarm--if the ship had to be left unmanned in port, anyone (such as pirates) sneaking aboard to loot the weapons would trip the wire and alert the nearby crew.
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« Reply #42 on: Jun 04, 2007 03:08 pm »

^ That would make sense, but do you mean that the booby traps would be up the whole time, or only when the crew would go out.

The latter seems more probable because it would just be a hassel to leave the booby traps up when the soldiers are just walking around the ship. I'm sure they would be set off by accident at least once a week.

Alright after a small discussion with my friends about this we came to this conclusion: In World War two or Korea, or any other war whenever they would leave a bunker, or a village or building or something the people abandoning the place would booby trap the whole area. The idea of this is to defeat the enemy in any way possible. This is exactly what the Fire Nation did. When they were forced to abandon their ships and flee from defeat they booby trapped their ships so that they could still take down as many water tribe members as they could.

Notice how the cage came down over Katara and Aang. The flare wasn't the only effect. Normal members of the water tribe would have a very difficult time getting out of that cage. It wasn't meant for Airbenders which explains why Aang was able to escape so easily.

The reason the flare was sent out could be for various reasons. Two might be for alerting Fire Nation ships in the area, and to alert other members of the water tribe. This would either entice the Water Tribe members to come onto the ship and set off more booby traps, or to enstill fear into their hearts. To show them that even when the fire nation is not there, there prescence is still felt.
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« Reply #43 on: Jun 08, 2007 04:10 pm »

I like your idea Karalora.  As jman points out, the flare was not the only observed outcome of tripping the wire; but the only other one (the automated lockdown) actually confirms your theory.  Obviously if a gang of thieving dock rats saw a flare go off, they would immediately try and jump ship.  The cage would prevent them from doing so.

But - I still have a problem.  (I know, it's hard to believe.   Tongue)  As I pointed out in an earlier post, mincing your steps to avoid trip wires everywhere you go would be a tad, uh, incommodious; especially on a military vessel.  As jman says, they might only activate the traps when they were out.  But the thing is, why would a crew ever leave a warship totally unmanned?  I mean, what eventuality would necessitate such a thing?  *sigh*  I suppose I'm making a mountain out of a badgermolehill - but I enjoy myself.   Grin
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Karalora
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« Reply #44 on: Jun 08, 2007 05:18 pm »

But the thing is, why would a crew ever leave a warship totally unmanned?

That's something we could speculate about all day and night and part of the next day (at which point we'd pass out from lack of sleep), but do we really need to come up with a specific scenario for leaving the ship deserted to make the "burglar alarm" theory plausible? Maybe the Fire Nation simply decided to plan for every conceivable contingency.

Or maybe the tripwires aren't there for thieving dock rats per se, but for the poor grunts left behind to guard the ship while everyone else gets some shore leave. Keep the babysitter out of the wall safe, style of thing.
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« Reply #45 on: Jun 08, 2007 05:48 pm »

do we really need to come up with a specific scenario for leaving the ship deserted to make the "burglar alarm" theory plausible?

Well, yes, I think we do.  If something is vastly unlikely ever to happen, then it doesn't function very well as an explanatory device.   Tongue

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Maybe the Fire Nation simply decided to plan for every conceivable contingency.

Well, what's your margin for "conceivable"?  I suppose they could have planned for the contingency of unagi attacking the ship by installing giant spikes all around the hull in order to ward them off.  And so on.  But at some point, don't we approach the absurd?  It seems to me that the easiest way for the Fire Nation to plan for the contingency of a deserted ship is just to rotate the crew so that the ship is never deserted.

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Or maybe the tripwires aren't there for thieving dock rats per se, but for the poor grunts left behind to guard the ship while everyone else gets some shore leave. Keep the babysitter out of the wall safe, style of thing.

Now you're on to something.  Fire Sailors, methinks, would be particularly prone to mutiny and other, less intense forms of sabotage (slave-driven, put-upon drudges that I'm certain they are).  But there's a problem with this theory too!  The Fire Sailors would likely know about the tripwires.  Even if they didn't - one mutiny attempt, and they would know.  It would only be a matter of time until resentment boiled over again...

In my perennially disatisfied mind, at least, there is still no utility for the booby traps that outweighs their ginormous inconvenience.
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« Reply #46 on: Jun 08, 2007 06:52 pm »

Well, yes, I think we do.  If something is vastly unlikely ever to happen, then it doesn't function very well as an explanatory device.   Tongue

What I meant was that even though we don't find it likely that a ship would ever be left unmanned, maybe the Fire Nation did. Especially given the great age of the ship in question. Maybe the traps' original purpose is now obsolete.

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It seems to me that the easiest way for the Fire Nation to plan for the contingency of a deserted ship is just to rotate the crew so that the ship is never deserted.

Would that always be feasible or worthwhile in itself, though? The ships must require comprehensive maintenance from time to time, and I don't imagine that the sailors would hang around 24/7 while the hunk of metal was drydocked. During work hours (read: daylight), the repair crew would be able to keep an eye on things, but what about the rest of the time? Booby traps are slightly more reliable than harbor guards: they can't be bribed or fall asleep.

Quote
But there's a problem with this theory too!  The Fire Sailors would likely know about the tripwires.  Even if they didn't - one mutiny attempt, and they would know.  It would only be a matter of time until resentment boiled over again...

Maybe it's a security clearance thing. Only the officers and quartermaster are allowed in the weapons room. Everyone else...well, they know there are booby traps, but not exactly a) what they are, b) where they are, or c) how to disable them. And do you really think a crew that has attempted mutiny once is going to be kept around to try it again with all the aforementioned knowledge gained?

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In my perennially disatisfied mind, at least, there is still no utility for the booby traps that outweighs their ginormous inconvenience.

Probably, we are all thinking about this much too hard, like the rabid geeks we are. I'm still casting my vote for some kind of burglar alarm.
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« Reply #47 on: Jun 09, 2007 01:32 pm »

What I meant was that even though we don't find it likely that a ship would ever be left unmanned, maybe the Fire Nation did. Especially given the great age of the ship in question. Maybe the traps' original purpose is now obsolete.

Point taken.  The world of Avatar being a fictional, and hence incomplete and intermittent, world, the question verges on the imponderable.  M&B could very likely dream up some ad hoc scenario that explains the existence of the booby traps.  Failing that...we'll just have to wait for some enterprising fanfic writer...*hint hint to anybody out there*   Grin   

Although I'm still partial to Kaiser Avatar's conjecture (which see his Reply #34 above).

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Would that always be feasible or worthwhile in itself, though? The ships must require comprehensive maintenance from time to time, and I don't imagine that the sailors would hang around 24/7 while the hunk of metal was drydocked. During work hours (read: daylight), the repair crew would be able to keep an eye on things

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  (Latin tags do impress people, right?   Tongue)  What's to prevent the maintenance crew from making off with the booty?  If the Fire Nation wanted to protect their storage rooms, wouldn't it be more efficient to just install really kick-butt locks on the doors?  Not to mention more accident-free...

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Booby traps are slightly more reliable than harbor guards: they can't be bribed or fall asleep.

But they can be disabled.  Especially by the mechanically inclined grease jockeys one would be likely to find on a repair crew.   Wink

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And do you really think a crew that has attempted mutiny once is going to be kept around to try it again with all the aforementioned knowledge gained?

Of course not.  But if just a few get away...knowledge is contagious.

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Probably, we are all thinking about this much too hard, like the rabid geeks we are.

Probably?!?   Grin Grin
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« Reply #48 on: Jun 10, 2007 01:26 am »

Who else here thinks that the abandoned FN ship would be an excellent way for the gaang to infiltrate the FN (if they could disable the booby traps and make it suitible to sail again)?
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« Reply #49 on: Jun 10, 2007 08:09 am »

^ I don't think so considering that Fire Nation ship was from one of their first attacks and is very old fashioned. If you look at the S1 Season Finale you can see that the uniforms and ships have changed substantially since the first attacks one hundred years ago. The Fire Nation would easily be able to spot that ship as being outdated and therefore suspicious.
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