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Author Topic: Is Iroh more powerful than Ozai?  (Read 30090 times)
Red Hawk
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« Reply #450 on: Apr 30, 2014 02:06 am »

I'm only assuming they were novices because those soldiers in the Capital were beaten by a bunch of children and a few adults. If they were prepared ala Azula's warning, we'd see a different battle that should have wiped Aang from relevance to the War. Sure they were more of a diversion, but still. A diversion like that assumes the soldiers there could handle something of that caliber, but if these relatively inexperienced peasants  [save for Hakoda's men]  were able to easily take them down a peg or two, what would it say about the prison that holds Iroh.

You're not making any sense. "A bunch of children" included the Avatar and some of the most elite fighters in the world.  "A few adults" meant a small army including more elite fighters and cutting edge combat vehicles ala the Mechanist.   They were equipped as full Water Tribe warriors and Earth Kingdom soldiers, not as "relatively inexperienced peasants".  Seriously, where are you even getting that idea?

Even if the Invasion force was as green and incompetent as you're suggesting it was, the Fire Nation let the invasion force progress further into the Capital.  It was a trap.  They let the invasion force push in so they wouldn't have time to get back to their subs once the airship fleet was revealed.

And even if for some reason the Fire Nation garrison was a small garrison of novice soldiers (which it wasn't, in the flashback to the pre-invasion war room meeting in "Sozin's Comet" we see that the Fire Nation had allocated troops from the Earth Kingdom to the capital in preparation for the attack), that proves nothing about the guards at Iroh's cell.  There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume that Ozai had worthless novice soldiers standing guard over the single greatest threat to his rule short of the Avatar.

Quote
How I imagine it is like Kenshiro versus a bunch of nobody poseur thugs who get wiped to the floor because they rely on parlor tricks rather than on applicable skills to use in hand-to-hand combat. If we were to give them more power, Iroh would be breaking some sweat by then. Basically, the entire premise of Iroh breaking out of prison lies on the luck of prison guards who are barely trained in any discipline [despite going against the Dragon] while going with a huge lapse of judgment due to underestimation. Maybe the training issue could come up, but he probably surmised the prisoner times and breaks enough to work on his cardio and strength in secret.


No, it doesn't.  There's not even the slightest suggestion of this in the actual show.

Quote
We can probably throw Iroh's escape to Ozai's general arrogance and lack of planning as if he were to have been as much of a  cruel strategist as his brother or father, Iroh would have been in a metal box akin to Hama in a colder environment to repress his firebending. Then for the sake of the story  (and for my admiration [or love?] of the character)  it wouldn't be possible to keep him contained. Essentially the prison was pretty much a paper tiger much like Ozai and his regime. He is only aggressive until things go the fan, as to which he collapses to defeat. 

It's funny you should attribute Ozai with "lack of planning", because he planned pretty well in preparation for the Day of Black Sun invasion.  He transferred more troops to the capital, had the airship fleet lying in wait, and took refuge in a secret underground bunker.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #451 on: Apr 30, 2014 06:41 am »

Quote
How I imagine it is like Kenshiro versus a bunch of nobody poseur thugs who get wiped to the floor because they rely on parlor tricks rather than on applicable skills to use in hand-to-hand combat. If we were to give them more power, Iroh would be breaking some sweat by then. Basically, the entire premise of Iroh breaking out of prison lies on the luck of prison guards who are barely trained in any discipline [despite going against the Dragon] while going with a huge lapse of judgment due to underestimation. Maybe the training issue could come up, but he probably surmised the prisoner times and breaks enough to work on his cardio and strength in secret.


No, it doesn't.  There's not even the slightest suggestion of this in the actual show.

Word of God is that the prison guards (including the Boiling Rock crew) in the Fire Nation were all drafted civilians with little to no training and rather lackluster morale.
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #452 on: Apr 30, 2014 06:43 am »

"My brother Iroh is probably the second most powerful warrior of the Fire Nation after me (everyone is second to me anyway), I shall therefore put untrained, morale lacking guards to watch him."
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #453 on: Apr 30, 2014 07:04 am »

"My brother Iroh is probably the second most powerful warrior of the Fire Nation after me (everyone is second to me anyway), I shall therefore put untrained, morale lacking guards to watch him."

No-one dared to accuse Ozai with being smart  Smiley.
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #454 on: Apr 30, 2014 07:09 am »

They would congratulate him even if he proposed to attack Ba Sing Se with spoons as a weapon.
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AvatarReiko
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« Reply #455 on: Apr 30, 2014 10:53 am »

Ozai strikes me as someone who would train constantly and intensive and fight until he was at death's door. Sort of like Vegeta in a way. I think Iroh was better than Ozai before Lu ten died and got rusty. In Iroh's absence Ozai honed his skills and trained. Ozai has more power but Iroh is more diverse and creative with his bending. However, we don't know if Iroh could perform the jet propulsion. The problem is that if the two fought during thee comet, Iroh would have won due his lighting redirection.

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Solid Sun
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« Reply #456 on: Apr 30, 2014 11:17 am »

Ozai probably know about Lighting Redirection.
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Ms.WW
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« Reply #457 on: Apr 30, 2014 12:19 pm »

Yeah probably, considering it was used against him twice, he knows about it now, but that was a technique Iroh came up with. There's nothing suggesting Ozai would come up with it on his own around the same time. He was busy leading a war. I think it's a long stretch.

Between the two, I believe Iroh would dominate in defense, strategy, and technique. He would probably last longer in a fight because he usually conserves energy only using what's necessary moment to moment. While Ozai isn't weak in his strategy and technique, he's brute and does not reserve his energy. He starts the fight at full power, and I imagine hasn't experienced longer fights due to that. Also, his defense technique seems crude to me. If I remember correctly, it's primarily running away from his opponent. Again, I imagine he hasn't needed to implement it in most of his fights. He probably overwhelms his opponent in offense.

I believe Iroh would win in a fight. I bet he knows his brother's fighting well enough to evade Ozai in just a way that encourages Ozai to continue to expend all his energy early in the fight. Then when he's tiring out, Iroh would make the winning move.
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #458 on: Apr 30, 2014 01:36 pm »

To be honest on Ozai's crude defense (but I don't think it's very good), any defense would likely be destroyed by the attacks of the Avatar State.
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« Reply #459 on: Jun 27, 2014 11:37 pm »

He's got the power of friendship. Iroh be mackin' on Earth kingdom girls; Ozai be jelly. Tongue
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Arzon
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« Reply #460 on: Jul 28, 2014 01:20 pm »

I doubt. Most likely they are nearly on par.
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Weege the Airbender
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« Reply #461 on: Aug 06, 2014 10:15 am »

Ozai's biggest advantages are his younger age and greater endurance, as well as his ruthlessness. Iroh would be able to redirect Ozai's lightning but would probably be too hesitant to kill him with it.
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« Reply #462 on: Aug 06, 2014 12:07 pm »

^I don't think Iroh wouldn't kill Ozai. He doesn't strike me as the strictly no-kill guy like Aang. After all, he was leading the attack on EK. Sure, he changed sine then but I still doubt he would avoid killing Ozai when given the chance considering how much damage he's done.
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Weege the Airbender
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« Reply #463 on: Aug 06, 2014 01:20 pm »

^I don't think Iroh wouldn't kill Ozai. He doesn't strike me as the strictly no-kill guy like Aang. After all, he was leading the attack on EK. Sure, he changed sine then but I still doubt he would avoid killing Ozai when given the chance considering how much damage he's done.

But Iroh even said in S3E19 "The Old Masters" that he wouldn't kill Ozai.
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Arzon
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« Reply #464 on: Aug 06, 2014 01:30 pm »

He said he didnt know whether he could defeat him, IIRC
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ByStorm
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« Reply #465 on: Aug 06, 2014 02:14 pm »

^He also said that he wouldn't if he could because of the Avatar's symbolic and sacred role in mediating and ending global conflict.

If Iroh were to just kill Ozai himself , unless it was covered up, it would be merely a coup d'etat unless Aang was  helping with it. 
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Arzon
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« Reply #466 on: Aug 06, 2014 02:36 pm »

So we agree that it would be both arguably possible from soldier PoV and impossible from politician PoV
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ByStorm
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« Reply #467 on: Aug 06, 2014 09:51 pm »

So we agree that it would be both arguably possible from soldier PoV and impossible from politician PoV

It would definitely be possible from a soldier POV to take down Ozai. The only deal is that it either needs to appear that Aang defeated him, or it will just look like some typical coup. And it's not like the Earth King would take lightly to the man that wanted to take down his walls being on the other side of discussing about the colonies. He'd just waste them as if he didn't care, and the colonies would either become their own country [not the URN] right away or be permanently a part of the Fire Nation.

In that theoretical scenario, I doubt Iroh would tolerate Earth natives to be second-class citizens, so he would make them all citizens regardless of their birth equally. Then, he'd probably just weed out the racism from the upper echelons in a mass wave of trials and death in a war. And why would anyone go against him? He killed a dragon and knows a whole ton of fire bending. In general, the Fire Nation would be more liberal, and provbably work to develop its poorer parts to be more educated and whatever else, while contending with the colonies.

Maybe since he believes that there are no real differences and are all equal , that it would extend to not recognizing the FN as FN or EK territory. Iroh would probably die in 20 years and Zuko would take the throne. If everything happened like The Promise and Search, by the time he's the Lord, he'll have an uneventful rule with much of the accomplishments being under Iroh. If Iroh fixed the EK situation, I doubt there would be issue, but if not, then he'll be another war Fire Lord that will contend with EK encroachment on the URN/FN Colonies. But with the war as it is, both Water Tribes will oppose the EK and a more reasonable FN and the Avatar would put it down.

This is merely speculation.
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Red Hawk
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« Reply #468 on: Aug 07, 2014 01:16 am »

I think Iroh knew he would have to kill Ozai if they fought.  He wasn't necessarily morally opposed to it, but he judged that it was the wrong thing for the world.  So he avoided the fight entirely.
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Arzon
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« Reply #469 on: Aug 07, 2014 01:45 am »

"Definitely"? I dont get why are you so sure that Iroh is more powerful...
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #470 on: Aug 07, 2014 05:20 pm »

Iroh wouldn't be able to kill Ozai.
But, he could probably put up a terrific fight and push Ozai to his extreme limits.
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Frelord Chris
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« Reply #471 on: Aug 07, 2014 10:33 pm »

I say Ozai has him beat due to his younger age...he could keep up with Aang an airbender and I'm new by the way Smiley


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Arzon
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« Reply #472 on: Aug 08, 2014 03:48 am »

Well, logically, Ozai perfomance under Comet was definitely impressive. hardly less impressive than Iroh giant fireball. And since COmet enhances all benders by the same amount...
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Onu-Bender
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« Reply #473 on: Aug 11, 2014 10:25 pm »

Iroh wouldn't be able to kill Ozai.
But, he could probably put up a terrific fight and push Ozai to his extreme limits.

It is hard to say. I don't think I ever saw Iroh fly under propulsion and he definitely has more mass not to mention the fact that he is bigger so he likely has a higher co-efficient of friction and air drag.... it may be a quick battle (and less explosive) than you think. As I recall he was the "Chicken King" for a reason.
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Frelord Chris
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« Reply #474 on: Aug 25, 2014 06:53 pm »

Well, logically, Ozai perfomance under Comet was definitely impressive. hardly less impressive than Iroh giant fireball. And since COmet enhances all benders by the same amount...
Yeah but it only enhances the fire,not their agility,techniques,etc.
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