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Author Topic: New LOK Comic - Ruins of the Empire  (Read 1735 times)
longman83
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 05, 2018 10:54 am »

The whole family issue was a weak way to try to garner sympathy. Her feeling that she failed at Zaofu would have been far more relevant. She was the captain of the guard for the Metal Clan. It was under her watch that the Red Lotus broke in and it was under her watch they escaped and managed to murder the Earth Queen as well as cripple the Avatar. So if they made it that she felt responsible for the chaos running rampant I felt that would have given her more credence as opposed to some abandonment issues.

More importantly, giving Kuvira credence would  require that at some point, this issue is addressed: what did Kuvira encounter when she stepped out to pacify the EK? What were her experiences? What difficult situations was she embroiled in, and what tough choices was she perhaps forced to make, choices that might have led her to the epiphany that authoritarianism was the only way forward, and she had to be the one at the helm? Oh and btw, Show, don't Tell. Show Kuvira modernizing ancient cultures and what that process was like, don't just Tell. Granted, this might be too much for a limited medium like a comic series and entails the kind of storytelling that Books 3 and 4 really should have included beforehand. But even a worthy attempt in this direction is better than red herring Freudian excuses (which, if you look at that Kuvira-Suyin chat, is pretty much what that subplot is.)
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 05, 2018 11:30 am »

I also want someone from the Earth Empire to call out the idea of independent states as being another way for a monarch to shirk his responsibility to the Earth Kingdom. For all intents and purposes the states WERE independent and look how they turned out for the most part. I would love to see how Ba Sing Se changed under Kuvira’s reign. However I think they are going to go with the whole “Freudian excuse”, Kuvira was completely wrong and independent democratic states are the way to go.
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Prince Ire
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« Reply #27 on: Oct 06, 2018 02:02 am »

I still think the whole abolition of the Earth Kindom's monarchy in the show was rather silly, so I don't exactly have high hoped for this.
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« Reply #28 on: Oct 07, 2018 03:52 pm »

Kuvira should add something like this to her opening (or closing) statement:

"Under whose authority does this "Special Tribunal" presume to judge me? By order of Zhu Li, one of my former aides? She helped build the spirit weapons with Varrick, another aide and the brainchild of the project. They are seated here today. Who's going to try them? How about former President Raiko, under whose mandate I allegedly waged wars of aggression for three years? Will you try him too?

This court is a complete and utter sham. It's authority is derived from a ruling class that was complicit in my so called crimes by omission or commission. Many of them are seated here today. They should also be standing with me on trial, not sitting in hypocritical judgement. They have no moral credibility to judge me. I do not accept their judgement, and I do not accept the judgement of this Court. The only one fit to pass judgement may be the one my accusers cowardly ran to in order to save their skin, the one I surrendered to in this city. The Avatar. "

She'd be more than half correct.

This post is Loopy Approved TM.

I hope we end up with Raiko going to jail for war crimes. And also Kuvira being executed for war crimes.


I don’t think the size of the Earth Kingdom makes it impossible for there to be a central governing body. The problem is that the leaders of the past would basically stay in their palaces and never venture out into their kingdom or play a major role in dictating what was going on. Kuvira had changed all of that when she implemented high speed maglev trains to criss cross the vast continent. Now people could connect far quicker than they did in the past and it also allowed for the central governing party to make their presence known in a timely manner. Information was also able to be spread far more quickly with them having access to sending messages electronically. I think that carving up the Earth Kingdom is not in the best interest of the citizens because then they go back to what they have been and it’s about time that issue is addressed.

The EK's size isn't necessarily an obstacle to unification, but it is big enough that over the last several hundred years of absentee government (I'm assuming the fact the Chin was able to conquer everything but Ba Sing Se means the isolation of the capital has some long-running precedent) it has developed effectively autonomous cultures. Just because a train can get you from one side of the country to another in a day (random assumption, since Appa can cross half the globe in two days) doesn't mean that a previously isolated culture is going to be eager to bow to some new government.

The new level of technology can be a start to homogenization, but I think it's going to have to be a long-term project, if Korra (in her role as Avatar) doesn't decide that the EK's varied make-up is worth preserving.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #29 on: Oct 07, 2018 05:48 pm »

I hope we end up with Raiko going to jail for war crimes.

But that means hard times for Tenzin too. I mean, Kuvira was a group effort.
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« Reply #30 on: Oct 08, 2018 04:00 am »

OT, but angry spirits-like corners of this forum has Pavlov'ed me into misreading this tread's title into Korra ruining something everytime i see it 0.o"


I hope we end up with Raiko going to jail for war crimes. And also Kuvira being executed for war crimes.

somehow i have trouble imagining any AtlA or LOK-verse court to be anything other than the Kangaroo-type. i'd love a serious and competent court to counter this, but then who'd be seated in it? kinda hard to find neutral and respected parties in this mess
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ahintoflime
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« Reply #31 on: Oct 08, 2018 09:39 am »

OT, but angry spirits-like corners of this forum has Pavlov'ed me into misreading this tread's title into Korra ruining something everytime i see it 0.o"
You're not alone. I too read it as Korra: Ruins the Empire. I had a sensible chuckle.

I hope we end up with Raiko going to jail for war crimes.

But that means hard times for Tenzin too. I mean, Kuvira was a group effort.
Tenzin wasn't setting up advisors like Raiko was to "assist" Wu in governing though. And Tenzin is a main character so the most they get is a slap on the wrist or their past lives purged or not-mercury poisoned.
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Tamerlan Pahlavi
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« Reply #32 on: Oct 08, 2018 02:12 pm »

Maybe the creators thought that using the Freudian excuse worked perfectly for Zuko and really well for Azula so why not try it on Kuvira? Though, Zuko could have been made sympathetic without focusing on his family life at all other than his relationship with Iroh as it played out in the present. He was shown as honorable and moral in season 1 when he spared Zhao and when he refrained from chasing the avatar to save Iroh.

Anyway, Kuvira. What did she do that really harmed the average citizen? Even without the repressive measures she had massive public support. Those who supported her clearly benefited from herrule. Her government didn't collapse internally due to resistance and mismanagement but due to overwhelming outside force, just like a country from our world whose leadership became synonymous with pure evil. Experience has taught me that the glorious leader of then would have been regarded as the greatest of that country to ever live if the populace wasn't thought from earliest age to view him as a monster for the past 70+ years.

Loopy: Azula is responsible for a plan of genocide. Though, Kuvira doesn't have the excuse of being underage. Still, she surrendered due to a change of heart. Like she said in the excerpt, she gave up everything. She still wont give up her pride and dignity though, and that's I think the crux of the story.
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« Reply #33 on: Oct 08, 2018 05:43 pm »

I hope we end up with Raiko going to jail for war crimes.

But that means hard times for Tenzin too. I mean, Kuvira was a group effort.

Did Tenzin give her money and a medal? Tongue


Loopy: Azula is responsible for a plan of genocide. Though, Kuvira doesn't have the excuse of being underage. Still, she surrendered due to a change of heart. Like she said in the excerpt, she gave up everything. She still wont give up her pride and dignity though, and that's I think the crux of the story.

Eh, by the time we were properly introduced to Kuvira, she was strong-arming starving villages into literally handing over full control of their lands and resources to her. She was willing to let children starve if the villages didn't bow down to her unquestioned, unchecked rule. I'm probably one of the few people who think her ethnic-cleansing camps are the next logical step of her weird need to dominate and control everything. She was combative with everyone who ever criticized her, and turned all her friends and personal acquaintances into her fanatical enemies.

Meanwhile, we have only one flashback scene in which she claims she was so sympathetic to the lawless Earth Kingdom. More likely, I think, that she was covering up a sick need to dominate with a more altruistic motive, perhaps even to herself. Her 'change of heart' after her complete defeat was probably just a depressive episode.
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luvavatar
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« Reply #34 on: Oct 08, 2018 06:33 pm »

I still see nothing wrong with her refusing to give aid without getting anything in return. She wasn’t running a humanitarian mission, but one to unite a broken nation. If they want to remain “free” and independent then that is on them to face the consequences. A restaurant won’t give you food just because you’re hungry, you have to pay. Also what she was taking from them were resources that they themselves weren’t using or cultivating, basically allowing them to live as they always had, but this time have a government that actually gave them something in return. Under the previous monarchs they just paid taxes, but where was the infrastructure such as providing food and medicine? Where was the mass transit, where were the soldiers to protect them in the event of foreign or civil wars? I feel like season four just amped up to vilify her so that they wouldn’t have to deal with the fact that her actions were somewhat reasonable.
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Helldars
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« Reply #35 on: Oct 08, 2018 10:24 pm »

I still see nothing wrong with her refusing to give aid without getting anything in return. She wasn’t running a humanitarian mission, but one to unite a broken nation.
The problem is more that we were never given the details of her mandate. But personally, I doubt it included removing all civil liberties, reshaping the "liberated" states into mere cogs of a military-industrial complex, where dissent was even more vigorously suppressed than it probably was under the queen. The governor of Yi already knew what was in store for his state if he agreed to join Kuvira's soon-to-be empire and he relented only when faced with an impending famine. I think that says a lot about how Kuvira's rule was felt in the Earth Kingdom.

[...] her actions were somewhat reasonable.
Her actions were to be perceived as reasonable by the people of the EK, and secondarily by her foreign backers. And I am certain propaganda did a lot to help her cause, remember those Kuvira fans in Republic City? They were not just showing their admiration for her success, they were willing participants (probably even acting on orders) in a PR mission to pave the way for her eventual takeover of a sovereign nation.

Also, among the main attributes of totalitarian states are the emphasis on the revitalization of the country by removing corruption, enforcing law & order as well as the construction of great works of architecture. All of which would sound pretty reasonable to anybody, especially for someone living in a shattered country or to the leaders of foreign powers eager to prevent the chaos from spreading to their shores.

These great works in particular, by improving infrastructure, communications, energy or water distribution, and employing the jobless serve to symbolize and justify the new order's rule over the nation as much as they are meant to benefit it. Some of these achievements also have an obvious military application in mind and help strenghten control over the nation by easing the transportation of troops and other... "undesirables". They are very visible demonstrations of the power and efficiency of the regime to their nation, and to the world. But their true worth was often inflated by propaganda, like the Reichsautobahn or the White Sea-Baltic canal were. Both never reached their intended goal, and both are testaments to the brutality of the dictatorships that oversaw their construction, as they both used forced labour during their construction.

Now, apply that to the example of Kuvira's train. It's likely it was at first funded by her technologically-advanced and industrially-developped sponsors, the United Republic and the Fire Nation. But once Kuvira refused to hand over the Earth Kingdom and declared herself dictator of the Earth Empire, how was she able to continue funding and building a state-of-the-art railway system, not to mention all the other projects? I think forced labour both for citizens and inmates of the reeducation camps were already happening for a while. And as for funding, confiscation of property and assets owned by foreigners and immigrants were a likely possibility. It's happened in our world, that's how the Third Reich managed to keep its economy afloat, and looting occupied countries also helped.

I know, I know... I'm speculating based on what little information the show's given us. But Kuvira's "regency" and the subsequent Earth Empire were fascists states in all but name. And like all dictatorial states in history, they can boast achievements for the improvement of their nation, but it always goes hand in hand with their controlling, ruthless nature.
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Loopy
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« Reply #36 on: Oct 09, 2018 07:13 pm »

Kuvira: So, have you had time to rethink my generous offer? 

Governor: Generous? You want to take everything. How is that generous?

We don't know the full legalese of the 'generous' offer, but I think the Governor is pretty clear here that Kuvira is not asking for taxes or membership in a reasonable government. She wants everything. She wants the resources and the land and the homes and the people. And she'll let people die to achieve that.

I think Helldars's comparison with the ruthless dictatorships of our world is quite apt.

Maybe it helps that I think Kuvira's "excuse" of being an orphan is both ridiculous and completely unsympathetic, at least when it applies to world domination.
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« Reply #37 on: Oct 09, 2018 07:55 pm »

I think under the Earth Kingdom banner they were beholden to the whole lives and land belong to the King or Queen. Bumi brought up the fact that Queen Hou-Ting did reserve the right to conscript her citizens. The difference is that under Kuvira she doesn’t ignore areas the way previous monarchs did, who basically just ruled in name only. Unfortunately the series doesn’t do a good enough job to demonstrate why the rule under Kuvira is so horrible and that she stole her position. I feel like she was made to be a nationalist and tyrant in order to negate any of the positives of uniting the Earth Kingdom.

I totally found the idea of making her an orphan to put her in a sympathetic light as ridiculous. I still feel my idea of her blaming herself as being a better one. She was meant to protect her city and couldn’t even see the traitor lying in their midst. Then she failed to stop the Red Lotus when they were in her vicinity and went on to kill the queen and grievously injure the avatar, which led to the Earth Kingdom falling into chaos. So her wanting to make up for her “mistake” she becomes the tyrant she never intended to be. That scene of her leaving Zaofu was just wrong. It should have shown Suyin bidding her farewell and hoping that she remains true to herself, someone who wants to help and do the right thing. Instead it was just disdainful condemnation. 
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Loopy
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« Reply #38 on: Oct 09, 2018 08:41 pm »

I think under the Earth Kingdom banner they were beholden to the whole lives and land belong to the King or Queen. Bumi brought up the fact that Queen Hou-Ting did reserve the right to conscript her citizens. The difference is that under Kuvira she doesn’t ignore areas the way previous monarchs did, who basically just ruled in name only.

We're using Queen Hou-Ting and Ba Sing Se as an example of good nation-ruling, now? Cheesy She wanted to rule in more than name only, but no one else was on board.


I totally found the idea of making her an orphan to put her in a sympathetic light as ridiculous. I still feel my idea of her blaming herself as being a better one. She was meant to protect her city and couldn’t even see the traitor lying in their midst. Then she failed to stop the Red Lotus when they were in her vicinity and went on to kill the queen and grievously injure the avatar, which led to the Earth Kingdom falling into chaos. So her wanting to make up for her “mistake” she becomes the tyrant she never intended to be. That scene of her leaving Zaofu was just wrong. It should have shown Suyin bidding her farewell and hoping that she remains true to herself, someone who wants to help and do the right thing. Instead it was just disdainful condemnation. 

Yeah, that would have been better. Suyin should have been the self-glorifying tyrant.
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« Reply #39 on: Oct 09, 2018 09:33 pm »

The previous way the Earth Kingdom monarchs ruled was wrong. They just hid within their palaces and lived off the people to maintain their lavish and extravagant lifestyles. Kuvira’s methods were heavy handed, but citizens received things in return such as security, food and medicine. The old way the royals ruled was basically “Give me your resources and manpower for I am a GOD to you peasants” and they might get something in return for doing so. Kuvira was also different from the other leaders in the past, she never asks for more from her soldiers than she is willing to do herself. That is probably what got many people to be so enamored by her, especially when looking at who the alternative was.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #40 on: Oct 10, 2018 05:39 am »

I hope we end up with Raiko going to jail for war crimes.

But that means hard times for Tenzin too. I mean, Kuvira was a group effort.

Did Tenzin give her money and a medal? Tongue

Raiko did not either. Kuvira's campaign was apparently self-funded because Suyin specifically pointed out that some of the richest people of Zaofu joined Kuvira when she left:
Quote
Su: Kuvira and Baatar left that day with Varrick, my security force, and a few of Zaofu's wealthiest citizens.
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« Reply #41 on: Oct 10, 2018 06:03 pm »

The previous way the Earth Kingdom monarchs ruled was wrong. They just hid within their palaces and lived off the people to maintain their lavish and extravagant lifestyles. Kuvira’s methods were heavy handed, but citizens received things in return such as security, food and medicine. The old way the royals ruled was basically “Give me your resources and manpower for I am a GOD to you peasants” and they might get something in return for doing so. Kuvira was also different from the other leaders in the past, she never asks for more from her soldiers than she is willing to do herself. That is probably what got many people to be so enamored by her, especially when looking at who the alternative was.

From an in-universe perspective, sure, the previous government was bad and anyone who enjoys being a jackbooted thug would be totally into giving up freedom for security.

From an out-of-universe perspective, I don't think Kuvira was any better and I hope she's convicted as a war criminal.


Raiko did not either. Kuvira's campaign was apparently self-funded because Suyin specifically pointed out that some of the richest people of Zaofu joined Kuvira when she left:

Well, fair point about the money, but Raiko totally gave her a medal.

(And before anyone tries to get nitpicky again, Raiko gave his city as host for the award ceremony, and in the preparations when other people were like, "Oh, hey, we're worried that maybe Kuvira isn't going to just be a trained monkey about this," Raiko was doing everything he could to cover for her. Tongue)
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« Reply #42 on: Oct 19, 2018 10:13 am »

We have seen what happens when they are ignored and/or free. They can’t blurt out that Kuvira was wrong for instituting a dictatorship when pretty much most of the world is run by monarchs. Despite Su’s protests of her not being put in her position by the people, there is no way the majority of them were threatened or coerced into joining her, especially in such a short period of time. I feel like she was vilified as a way to go “democracy good, dictatorship bad”. I believe democracy is a better form of government, but it takes time to set up. Just declaring “You’re free now” after centuries of one form of government isn’t going to suddenly alleviate the issues they are facing. Why not have one true leader in charge of the nation, but the states have their own rulers as well that are elected by the people?
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« Reply #43 on: Oct 19, 2018 06:22 pm »

Was it that Kuvira instituted a dictatorship, or that she was a military dictator who enslaved people and stole land/resources from people who did not want her rule? I mean, why did she need an army and all that military technology if the majority of people actually wanted her in charge? Just for bandits and rioters? Lightning-shooting robots?!

Kuvira was not vilified. She was a villain. And also a megalomaniac.
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Uzuko
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« Reply #44 on: Oct 19, 2018 09:21 pm »

This comic is probably going to be as unbalanced as season 4.
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« Reply #45 on: Oct 19, 2018 10:04 pm »

Was it that Kuvira instituted a dictatorship, or that she was a military dictator who enslaved people and stole land/resources from people who did not want her rule? I mean, why did she need an army and all that military technology if the majority of people actually wanted her in charge? Just for bandits and rioters? Lightning-shooting robots?!

Kuvira was not vilified. She was a villain. And also a megalomaniac.
Her army didn’t just congeal itself from the primordial ooze, it had to attract enough people until it became a formidable entity that then went on to rival that of any of the other nations. The other nations are allowed to bolster up their armaments, why not the Earth Kingdom? Leading up to Kuvira taking over there have already been a few battles with brand new technology. The CEO of a private company managed to build planes that easily took down what was supposed to be one of the most advanced naval fleets in the world. It’s not out of the question to create weapons to counteract a potential future threat. While the laser cannon was definitely their version of a nuclear deterrent and clearly overboard, I can’t really fault them on developing tanks and mech suits.

I know she was a villain, but I feel like they just went overboard into trying to portray her as one so that they could easily throw out any merit her work did have. The Earth Kingdom was a war torn nation that had a few pockets of light, but for the most part was a nation that was filled with poverty and hardship. Even the decimated Southern Water Tribe quickly rebuilt and the average citizen there doesn’t seem to face many issues that their Earth Kingdom counterparts would. I just don’t understand why all of a sudden it is a good idea to make the states all be independent with no central authority.
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« Reply #46 on: Oct 24, 2018 05:48 pm »

Two points:

1. An enthusiastic army of jack-booted thugs != widespread civilian support

2. Kuvira being a fascist control-freak with no redeeming qualities != an Earth Republic being a good idea
2a. An Earth Republic being a bad idea != Kuvira Was Right

('!=' means 'not equal'/'does not imply')
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« Reply #47 on: Oct 25, 2018 10:46 am »

Given the large size of Kuvira's army and how sparsely populated many areas of the Earth Kingdom are from what we've seen, it stands to reason that a good number of people DID in fact support Kuvira enough to join up with her. Heck look at the remaining population of Zaofu when she conquered them. There were like a few dozen people left at most, so either Zaofu was always this large city with an extremely small population or the majority of its denizens had joined up with Kuvira.

Given what the series proper has done with major issues, I feel like the Earth Republic will be shown as an overwhelmingly good idea. The Equalists and Red Lotus were pretty much just forgotten about, even though there should have been more of a follow up with them. How exactly were non-benders being unfairly treated? It wasn't until after the terrorist attacks that the council went after all non-benders. The only ones really being unfair to them beforehand were the criminals, who ALWAYS exploit those who are too weak to stand up for themselves. Yet one line from Gommu and the election of Raiko made all of the grievances non-benders supposedly faced non-existent. That is kind of what I see what they will do with this comic, state that splitting up the Earth Kingdom is a good idea while ignoring that all of the states being independent has been shown to be a bad idea in both series.
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« Reply #48 on: Oct 26, 2018 05:46 pm »

Oh, I have no doubt that most of Zaofu was on Kuvira's side. A bunch of elitist isolationists sitting on their own 'utopia' of high-technology? Of course they have Sozin-style mindsets.

But "stands to reason" really has no place in these kinds of discussions. That kind of thing is called "my headcanons" in other discussions, and no one takes it too seriously.
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Tamerlan Pahlavi
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« Reply #49 on: Nov 01, 2018 04:38 pm »

Two points:

1. An enthusiastic army of jack-booted thugs != widespread civilian support

2. Kuvira being a fascist control-freak with no redeeming qualities != an Earth Republic being a good idea
2a. An Earth Republic being a bad idea != Kuvira Was Right

('!=' means 'not equal'/'does not imply')

Civilians have the habit of supporting whatever they feel will save their skin at a given moment. The Fire Nation civilian population enthusiastically supported their dictators until Zuko overthrew them, then they enthusiastically supported him.

Second line, the Earth Kingdom now reminds me of Russia where nothing in its long history could ever settle except for anarchy or dictatorship. Sometimes there just aren't any good solutions, only painful trade offs.

Also, Azula doesn't have any redeeming qualities either except for her abusive upbringing and her deeply flawed and sad humanity. Guess they tried pulling some heartstrings for Kuvira too but couldn't replicate the same success.

Though on a personal level I really understand the craving for power and the need to feel strong and in control.

Oh, I have no doubt that most of Zaofu was on Kuvira's side. A bunch of elitist isolationists sitting on their own 'utopia' of high-technology? Of course they have Sozin-style mindsets.

Now that makes for a sensible backstory doesn't it? Kuvira picking up her deplorable attitudes from her environment and then cranking them up to eleven. What is Suyin's attitude to the world anyway, we are better than you but we don't need to teach you our ways, we are better off alone?
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