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Author Topic: Were the Fire Nation really the bad guys?  (Read 848 times)
skybison
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« Reply #25 on: Aug 30, 2017 04:24 pm »

Second, people talk about those things all the time.

I dunno, but I'm not hearing a lot about them. Hell, I've met people (Americans, obviously) who didn't even know that Tokyo was bombed at all during WW2.

Well different reference pools I guess.  They may not be as well known as the Holocaust but plenty of people do.  At any rate what the heck does that have to do with my original point?  Whether people know about Bomber Harris has nothing to do with if the Holocaust would have happened in a Nazi's win timeline.

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They had the Avatar, an asset that could have ran Sozin's plans right into the ground. It is at least questionable how else Sozin could have realistically handled that.

By not Murdering Everyone?  The Air Nomads had no military (as far as we know) and he killed tons of people who couldn't possibly have been the Avatar since they were either too old or too young.  If he just investigated the issue he would have learned that Aang disappeared and killing everyone was pointless.

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Also, as a side note, I don't say that slavery was good or even needed, or that the Sepoy Mutiny was a walk in the park, but I wouldn't use them as examples against colonialism. Unless you actually want to condemn capitalism and private corporations with a "colonialism is also bad" sidenote. The Opium Wars or the American Indian Wars would be better to mention here. Or the Boer Wars. Like, if you really want to show how evil colonialism could be, then look no further than the Second Broer War - there was stuff there not even the Nazis dared to implement.


I don't think capitalism is bad.  I think killing and enslaving people is bad.  You are saying they are good because the industrial revolution couldn't have happened otherwise.  I'm citing examples that this is an oversimplification and that it isn't necessarily true that the industrial revolution couldn't have happened without them (although it would have been slower).
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #26 on: Aug 30, 2017 05:07 pm »

Whether people know about Bomber Harris has nothing to do with if the Holocaust would have happened in a Nazi's win timeline.

Okay then, let me rephrase it. If the Nazis had won, the Holocaust would have been a "long standing political controversy". Or even less. We wouldn't even call it Holocaust, in any case. But we would have huge "Remember Drezden" events for the 500k+ victims of the Drezden bombings while arguing whether killing ~20k Jews was morally justified (and agree that it did help to end the war sooner).


By not Murdering Everyone?  The Air Nomads had no military (as far as we know) and he killed tons of people who couldn't possibly have been the Avatar since they were either too old or too young.  If he just investigated the issue he would have learned that Aang disappeared and killing everyone was pointless.

If Gyatso's death is any measure then the Air Nomads did put up quite a resistance. Tho, the genocide is kinda iffy in a way that it is unclear how Azulon could kill all the Air Nomads by destroying the four temples.

I think killing and enslaving people is bad.  You are saying they are good because the industrial revolution couldn't have happened otherwise.

We are in a misunderstanding. I'm saying that the industrial revolution couldn't have happened without aggressive colonialism. And that includes lots of killing and doing nasty things. Counter example for this is the Chinese: at one point, they were even bigger with exploration than the Europeans (and their tech level was also comparable), but they decided to play it cool and trade/do diplomacy rather than conquer and exploit. The rest is history I guess.
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skybison
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« Reply #27 on: Aug 30, 2017 10:06 pm »

Okay then, let me rephrase it. If the Nazis had won, the Holocaust would have been a "long standing political controversy". Or even less. We wouldn't even call it Holocaust, in any case. But we would have huge "Remember Drezden" events for the 500k+ victims of the Drezden bombings while arguing whether killing ~20k Jews was morally justified (and agree that it did help to end the war sooner).

... I don't even know where to start here.  First are you implying the holocausts death toll has been wildly exaggerated for propaganda purposes with this remark: "we would have huge "Remember Drezden" events for the 500k+ victims of the Drezden bombings"?  Because if so, no you're wrong.  Massive levels of research by wide varieties of scientists and historians have arrived at the roughly six million figure.  We know how many people did in the holocaust.

Are you seriously saying people only care about the Holocaust because the Nazi's lost?  because that's ridiculous.  People care about the holocaust because everyone's read Night and The Diary of Anne Frank and saw Schindler's List and getting a glimpse of what it's like turned their stomachs.  I'll grant you that if the Nazi's won they might have prevented these books from being published, at least in territory they controlled.  But I doubt they could have completely succeed since the Soviets weren't able to prevent the publication of The Gulag Archipelago. 

Considering that unlike at least some of the air bombings no legitimate argument can be made the gassing the Jews to death help end the war and lacked any self defense aspect since the Nazi's started it, I do not believe the holocaust would have been in the same territory as the air bombings.  A better comparison would be Stalin's genocides: less well known but everyone who knows of them agrees they were evil save for a few hardcore tankies and Russian nationalists and even they are more likely to deny they happened then justify them.

They overwhelming majority of modern Americans agree that the genocide of Native Americans and Slavery were evil.  A loud minority try to downplay them or weasel out of responsibility, but the number that actively think they were good is a tiny minority.  That by itself is strong evidence that people likely would still strongly oppose the holocaust if the Nazi's won.

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If Gyatso's death is any measure then the Air Nomads did put up quite a resistance. Tho, the genocide is kinda iffy in a way that it is unclear how Azulon could kill all the Air Nomads by destroying the four temples.

Gyatso personally did but we have nothing to support the idea that the Air Nomads were any kind of threat.  They refused to let Sozin kill a child, and couldn't have because they child wasn't there, so he killed every single one of them.  Regardless of plausibility this is a central plot point.  And none of what you've said could possibly justify that.

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We are in a misunderstanding. I'm saying that the industrial revolution couldn't have happened without aggressive colonialism. And that includes lots of killing and doing nasty things. Counter example for this is the Chinese: at one point, they were even bigger with exploration than the Europeans (and their tech level was also comparable), but they decided to play it cool and trade/do diplomacy rather than conquer and exploit. The rest is history I guess.

Again it's a complex topic but I have seen plenty of arguments disputing this.  ie Europe industrialized faster because China's leaders discouraged technological progress that disrupted the social order and were able to do that because they were a united empire with no serious threats.  Europe however was broken up between numerous small states that couldn't risk falling behind their neighbors lest they be invaded and this competition was what really fueled industrialization.  Another factor is that Chinese Calligraphy was harder to adapt to early priniting presses then the Roman alphabet, which limited China's ability to use them to build up education and scientific knowledge.

It's a more complex issue then you treating it.

EDIT: We should probably take the history stuff to PM if you wish to discuss it further, since it's probably gone too far away from Atla then we're allowed and I don't want Icy to have to lock the thread.
« Last Edit: Aug 30, 2017 11:56 pm by skybison » Logged


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AtoMaki
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« Reply #28 on: Aug 31, 2017 04:42 am »

EDIT: We should probably take the history stuff to PM if you wish to discuss it further, since it's probably gone too far away from Atla then we're allowed and I don't want Icy to have to lock the thread.

I'm ok with this, but I think there isn't much to discuss. The difference between us is more about being on the opposite ends of the Scaling Slide of Idealism vs Cynicism rather than history. As I said earlier, this is typical YMMW stuff I expected to come up in my first post.
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« Reply #29 on: Aug 31, 2017 06:04 pm »

In universe, at least, the Air Nomad genocide was well known despite the Fire Nation having dominated the globe for a century. And the lines of communication to the Southern Water Tribe were, from what we saw, all but non-existent.

So the Fire Nation would have had that stain on it for all of history, probably, even if their textbooks attempted to justify military action.
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Clowngoon
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« Reply #30 on: Aug 31, 2017 08:33 pm »

While I'm not saying that the genocide wasn't evil, a genocide on the Air Nomads seemed inevitable considering their lack of any real organized military strength. It would make them an easy target. If the Fire Nation didn't do it, someone else would have. Sure they believed in living with nonaggression, but did they really think the rest of the world would as well?
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longman83
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« Reply #31 on: Sep 01, 2017 10:24 am »

I think the Air Nomads' remote living areas and power of flight makes  them a very complicated target. That's why Aang didn't believe Katara and Sokka about the genocide at first. Plus the Fire Nation showed no interest in the much easier task of eliminating the SWT besides removing all its benders.  So the question is, what reasons would others have for removing the Air Nomads? 
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Yougo
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« Reply #32 on: Sep 01, 2017 12:56 pm »

Spite? The inability of backing down from carrying out your threat of killing air nomads until the avatar is either produced, comes out of hiding, or is killed anonymously in the process? Being so cooked up with comet juice you can't think straight? All of the above?
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Spartan Kobe
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« Reply #33 on: Sep 01, 2017 02:24 pm »

I think the Air Nomads' remote living areas and power of flight makes  them a very complicated target. That's why Aang didn't believe Katara and Sokka about the genocide at first. Plus the Fire Nation showed no interest in the much easier task of eliminating the SWT besides removing all its benders.  So the question is, what reasons would others have for removing the Air Nomads? 
Every Air Nomad was an Airbender back then, so they had to remove every Airbender by removing every Air Nomad. So basically, in this scenario, every rectangle was a square? Cheesy
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longman83
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« Reply #34 on: Sep 01, 2017 03:52 pm »

Spite? The inability of backing down from carrying out your threat of killing air nomads until the avatar is either produced, comes out of hiding, or is killed anonymously in the process? Being so cooked up with comet juice you can't think straight? All of the above?

Every Air Nomad was an Airbender back then, so they had to remove every Airbender by removing every Air Nomad. So basically, in this scenario, every rectangle was a square? Cheesy
I didn't make this clear, but I was asking about 'other' nations than the Fire Nation, in response to Clowngoon's claim that the Air Nomad's passivity meant that 'someone' would have killed them off eventually. The Air Nomads are unlikely to have been a nuisance like nomadic tribes IRL especially when you consider their 'worldly detachment' values, and they're not exactly sitting on prime real estate.
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Clowngoon
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« Reply #35 on: Sep 01, 2017 04:22 pm »

I think the Air Nomads' remote living areas and power of flight makes  them a very complicated target. That's why Aang didn't believe Katara and Sokka about the genocide at first. Plus the Fire Nation showed no interest in the much easier task of eliminating the SWT besides removing all its benders.  So the question is, what reasons would others have for removing the Air Nomads? 
As long as technology remained primitive, yes. However, once flying vehicles become a thing is when things would change big time.
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skybison
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« Reply #36 on: Sep 02, 2017 12:42 am »

^ So why hasn't anyone genocided the Jains or Quakers or other religious minorities that practice pacifism?

Humans aren't intrinsically evil or murderous.  Most people aren't committing genocide most of the time, and when they do it generally doesn't just spring up out of nowhere.  Usually it's because two groups are at war and the winner tries to whip out the loser for revenge and to make sure they don't come back later or because a minority is scapegoated by ideological fanatics for a countries problems.  Neither is inevitably going to happen just because someone can and the Air Nomads isolated lifestyle makes then unlikely targets for either.

Besides the Air Nomads weren't total pacifists, Gyatso took several FN soldiers down with him.  The Air Nomads capable of putting up a fight if attacked.
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dogzee
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« Reply #37 on: Sep 02, 2017 06:39 pm »

Okay is this thread just a troll job?  I mean

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The Fire Nation was honorable, if you stood down you weren't to be killed.

That obviously false, there are numerous examples of the fire nation killing people who stood down.  Katara and Sokka's mother for example wasn't resisting or doing anything to threaten them.

Even if Sozin started with good intentions, is there any evidence of the fire nations tech actually going to anyone in the earth kingdom or water tribe?  I don't remember any, Earth Kingdom peasants in FN controlled areas seem to have the same tech level as they did before the war.  Heck large parts of the fire nation itself were shown as impoverished in The Painted Lady.  If Sozin meant well, he clearly failed and his successors didn't help matters.  By Ozai's time the Fire Nation's ideology is pure Master race, no mention of helping anyone else in the Greater Fire Nation co-prosperity sphere.
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As for protesting, I don't see a point in those, and they aren't effective and just look at how countries like China handle them.

Off topic but that is not true.  Non-violent resistance movements against dictatorships have a 53% success rate. http://www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/files/IS3301_pp007-044_Stephan_Chenoweth.pdf

However, the Fire Nation itself had quite a few redeeming factors, from actually accomplishing something that benefitted the world (industrial progression, technological advancements) and the "evil" in their ranks seemed to be confined and not taken as granted unless it found convenient support from another evil. An example of this is Zhao who almost got busted by that random general if not for his well-timed promotion. Similarly, Ozai's scorched earth op was not taken very seriously and was most likely greenlit because nobody could bother with talking him out of it. Though we are treading on YMMW grounds now, as some might consider imperialistic goals as "evil" from the get go (I don't).

Doesn't the very fact that nobody could be bothered to talk him out of it make them evil?  There's a reason Sloth is one of the seven deadly sins, failing to even try to stop someone from committing mass murder because you just couldn't be asked is pretty evil stuff.

The Fire Nation started the war when they were under no threat whatsoever.  They attempted full scale genocide on three separate occasions (Air Nomads, SWT and Earth Kingdom).  They perform brutal disproportionate massacres at the slightest hint of resistance.  They imprison without trial any bender just for being benders.  Yeah most people in the fire nation were just regular people going along with a bad system, but that doesn't mean they aren't the bad guys.  By that logic the Nazi's were bad guys either.

"That obviously false, there are numerous examples of the fire nation killing people who stood down.  Katara and Sokka's mother for example wasn't resisting or doing anything to threaten them.

Even if Sozin started with good intentions, is there any evidence of the fire nations tech actually going to anyone in the earth kingdom or water tribe?  I don't remember any, Earth Kingdom peasants in FN controlled areas seem to have the same tech level as they did before the war.  Heck large parts of the fire nation itself were shown as impoverished in The Painted Lady.  If Sozin meant well, he clearly failed and his successors didn't help matters.  By Ozai's time the Fire Nation's ideology is pure Master race, no mention of helping anyone else in the Greater Fire Nation co-prosperity sphere."

There is literally only like 1 example and you said it. One soldier's action at that. The Fire Nation obviously didn't kill all rhose who were involved with the invasion during the Solar Eclipse or any Earth Kingdom citizens that obeyed.

Exactly, you would never see a peasant with technology like that. No parts of the Fire Nation were poor lol. That was a fishing village that prospered until pollution destroyed them temporarily.

Fire Nation still isn't evil. Just necessary acts to secure victory and send a message. Think Hiroshima and Nagasaki, can't label America evil for that.
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Red Hawk
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« Reply #38 on: Sep 03, 2017 12:56 am »

Killing the soldiers of the opposing country attempting to crush you with boulders sounds justifiable to me. I won't pretend that some soldiers were corrupt like Yon Rha or the Rough Rhinos, but they worked on their on terms with no one to keep them in check, so long as they claimed new land for the Fire Nation. Only resistance was killed so it's not like citizens were being slaughtered, when Omashu was conquered King Bumi was imprisoned, Kyoshi Warriors imprisoned, invaders of the FN during the eclipse were also imprisoned... The Fire Nation was honorable, if you stood down you weren't to be killed.

Said soldiers of opposing country wouldn't be trying to crush Fire Nation soldiers if the Fire Nation soldiers weren't trying to incinerate them in the first place, so no, not really justifiable.

If no one fought back while the Fire Nation took control of their land and livelihood, you weren't to be killed? Oh, that makes them so much better! [/sarcasm] No, their aggression and violence towards people who didn't want to bend their knee to the Fire Lord was still wrong.  And we saw that waterbenders and earthbenders were either locked up ("Imprisoned", "The Puppetmaster") or outright killed ("The Southern Raiders") simply for existing.  Yeah, real honorable folk.

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As for protesting, I don't see a point in those, and they aren't effective and just look at how countries like China handle them. Now if you were living in the Fire Nation as an average joe without super bending would you dare protest? I for one just does not care what my country does to another, if it's not hurting me, good, if it's for the greater benefit, yay. I don't have any power, authority, or really any influence over my nation, I'm just a person living in it, the decisions of the leading party is theirs solely. The lives that will potentially be lost is tragic but as horrible as it may sound it wouldn't really be effecting me.

I don't necessarily mean get out in the street and march in a protest, I just mean I wouldn't support my country acting so aggressively and would be vocal about it.

Moral apathy to the point that you don't care if people die as long as you aren't effected is...I'm just going to say I think it's wrong, grossly wrong.

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There is no difference except blue eyes and waterbending. There are natural light skinned Water Tribe people and also darker skinned Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation people so complexion isn't unique to any of the four races. Ethnicity is regional traits and culture based differences, right? There isn't really any of that either you just listed dark skinned EK people but they are found everywhere, you are water, earth, fire, or air. No such thing as fire native american and fire hawaiian, just Fire Nation, they all look the same. They can't be divided into sub groups like caucasian people who will look different by geographical origins. People like the Sun Warriors still follow ancient jungle FN tradition but there is nothing unique about their genetic make up, they have red/amber eyes and firebending like their modern successors.

Race and ethnicity are not actually the same thing, and I was talking about race.  Multiple racial groups can exist within each nation.  And are you even reading what you're typing? You acknowledge that people with different skin colors exist in each nation, and then you assert they "all look the same".  Obviously not, by your own admission.

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Chin the Conqueror showed how divided the EK is and still was by the time of Sozin.

...how?

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They have multiple small scale and run down villages along with sucky leaders.

And can you prove the Fire Nation didn't have a bunch of small villages at the time of the start of the war?

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The Water Tribe and Earth Kingdom's only tech were wooden sail boats.

And prove this, while you're at it, if you're so certain.

And bottom line, since you seem intent on ignoring people mentioning it: The Fire Nation started the whole war by committing genocide.  The Fire Nation killed all the Air Nomads.  Murder on such a horrific scale is evil, period.  The Fire Nation leadership at the time was evil for supporting Sozin in the genocide, and later leadership never disavowed that atrocity and were in fact willing to go along with Fire Lord Ozai in a similar monstrous act a hundred years later to wipe out the Earth Kingdom, where thousands if not millions of innocents would have died.  Just based on those facts alone, the Fire Nation are. The. Bad. Guys.
« Last Edit: Sep 03, 2017 01:09 am by Red Hawk » Logged
dogzee
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« Reply #39 on: Sep 03, 2017 08:37 am »

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Said soldiers of opposing country wouldn't be trying to crush Fire Nation soldiers if the Fire Nation soldiers weren't trying to incinerate them in the first place, so no, not really justifiable.

If no one fought back while the Fire Nation took control of their land and livelihood, you weren't to be killed? Oh, that makes them so much better! [/sarcasm] No, their aggression and violence towards people who didn't want to bend their knee to the Fire Lord was still wrong.  And we saw that waterbenders and earthbenders were either locked up ("Imprisoned", "The Puppetmaster") or outright killed ("The Southern Raiders") simply for existing.  Yeah, real honorable folk.

The Earth Kingdom attacked first. Peaceful conquering by the Fire Nation was met with boulder crushing. The Fire Nation already had a colony loong before the war even started but the Earth Kingdom thought it their place to declare war for an event that didn't even affect them so the Fire Nation put them in their place.

Water and earthbenders received imprisonment because of their rebellious actions, the Fire Nation just took precautions. Yon Rha is a lone evil soldier, prove that the Fire Nation as a majority slaughtered other benders just because. You can't, the hundreds we've seen got thrown in prison.

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I don't necessarily mean get out in the street and march in a protest, I just mean I wouldn't support my country acting so aggressively and would be vocal about it.

Moral apathy to the point that you don't care if people die as long as you aren't effected is...I'm just going to say I think it's wrong, grossly wrong.

Well call me a grade A patriot because I won't be losing any sleep at night over some deaths on the other side of the world. Go Fire Nation  Roll Eyes

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Race and ethnicity are not actually the same thing, and I was talking about race.  Multiple racial groups can exist within each nation.  And are you even reading what you're typing? You acknowledge that people with different skin colors exist in each nation, and then you assert they "all look the same".  Obviously not, by your own admission.

Too bad multiple races don't exist, there are only 4 and that's all that has been said to be unless you can prove the entire Avatar mythos wrong with a baseless assumption. Last I checked skin color alone wasn't a race, you can find people of the same race with different complexion lol. If you go back and re read I was stating that dark skin tone wasn't exclusive to water tribe and some made up indians contrary to what you said. As for everyone looking the same it's the truth, like I said twice before, the only racial differences that exist is bending genes and eye color but to clarify for you, simply "all look the same" means that within Avatar, outside of eyes, no one group of people has a feature unique to them like say the real world how asian people have slanted eyes or black people have curly hair, none pf that exist here. You'll find that some Fire Nation people look exactly like a Water Tribe person because they lack distinguishing features that exist in the real world that lets us tell a hispanic from a white. Hama lived in the Fire Nation for years and no one suspected or found out she was not Fire Nation and that's because her eyes weren't blue, in another instance Katara recognized Azula pretending to be Suki by looking at her firey eyes glisten, thus proving my point that everyone looks the same.



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...how?

Because a small scale conqueror just popped up and expanded his reign in a matter of weeks, the conquering seeminly unheard of by the King at the time and was unopposed by the official Earth Kingdom army and even the Avatar who was a citizen didn't even care about the state of her country just her hometown. If it was united then Chin should have never gotten as far as he did. The EK has and always will be torn, just filled with bandits and warlords, the FN was the best thing to happen to it.

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And can you prove the Fire Nation didn't have a bunch of small villages at the time of the start of the war?

I don't need to, the Fire Nation is literally filled with small villages, I'm not denying that, but none of them are raggedy like the Earth Kingdom ones lol. Sozin did say that the FN was in peak prosperity approximately 50 years before the war so you be the judge of that.

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And prove this, while you're at it, if you're so certain.

And bottom line, since you seem intent on ignoring people mentioning it: The Fire Nation started the whole war by committing genocide.  The Fire Nation killed all the Air Nomads.  Murder on such a horrific scale is evil, period.  The Fire Nation leadership at the time was evil for supporting Sozin in the genocide, and later leadership never disavowed that atrocity and were in fact willing to go along with Fire Lord Ozai in a similar monstrous act a hundred years later to wipe out the Earth Kingdom, where thousands if not millions of innocents would have died.  Just based on those facts alone, the Fire Nation are. The. Bad. Guys.

Prove me wrong. I sure can't remember the Earth Kingdom having oil rigs or any factories but you seem confident enough to rebuke my statements. *Waits on proof*

Okay but you're wrong at Ozai. Never was it mentioned or shown that he had absurb plans to commit genocide against a country 10x larger than his. I'm guessing you are referring to Sozin's Comet... Common misconception by like 90% of the Avatar fandom but Ozai was going to burn down random land on his way to Ba Sing Se to incinerate the rest of the resistance. You're confused, I find it funny how people actually think Ozai was going to stupidly try and kill millions of people while destroying 100 years of hard work, all in one night lol. Azula didn't even suggest that and that's clearly not what he proposed to do at the meeting, his Phoenix speech was purely metaphorical and by the world being reborn in fire he was referring to Fire Nation rule. But anyways still not evil, just extreme actions to stop the evil Avatar from ruining everything.





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Red Hawk
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« Reply #40 on: Sep 04, 2017 12:20 am »

It's getting pretty hard to continue this discussion, because if you are sincere about it, your morals are just so askew from mine that we can't really have a discussion of whether the Fire Nation are the bad guys if we can't agree on what constitutes a "bad guy", on what evil actually is (hint: I think a lot of the stuff you're ok with and support is evil). But then, you so blatantly misrepresent details from the show and pull claims out of thin air (or rather, your posterior), that I'm still not convinced you aren't just trolling.  Good job on that, I guess.

The Earth Kingdom attacked first. Peaceful conquering by the Fire Nation was met with boulder crushing. The Fire Nation already had a colony loong before the war even started but the Earth Kingdom thought it their place to declare war for an event that didn't even affect them so the Fire Nation put them in their place.

Dude, part of the very premise of the show is

Everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked.

And as per Roku in "The Winter Solstice Part 2: Avatar Roku":

"Fire Lord Sozin used that comet to begin the War. He and his firebending army harnessed its incredible power, and dealt a deadly first strike against the other nations."

The first strike was against all the other nations, not just the Air Nomads, contrary to what you've been arguing in a bizarre effort to make the Fire Nation look like they weren't the aggressors.  There was nothing "peaceful" about the Fire Nation trying to conquer the Earth Kingdom.  The fact that you would even utter the phrase "peaceful conquering", and act like it was wrong of the Earth Kingdom to retaliate against it, is just so divorced from reality and basic morality that I really think it's more likely you are trolling here rather than you actually believe your own baloney.

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Water and earthbenders received imprisonment because of their rebellious actions, the Fire Nation just took precautions. Yon Rha is a lone evil soldier, prove that the Fire Nation as a majority slaughtered other benders just because. You can't, the hundreds we've seen got thrown in prison.

Nope! Haru did nothing rebellious.  Heck, he saved a guy's life.  But just for the fact that he was an earthbender, he was taken and locked up.  Seems like the standard operating procedure.  And the point is that whether they're murdered or imprisoned, the treatment of benders was still wrong.  And whether Yon Rha was acting on his own volition, he never faced any consequences for his actions.  So the Fire Nation at least allowed for murder of innocents as a means to achieving their goals.  Again, real honorable folk.

Going to drop the race line of argument because it's largely tangential to this topic.

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Because a small scale conqueror just popped up and expanded his reign in a matter of weeks, the conquering seeminly unheard of by the King at the time and was unopposed by the official Earth Kingdom army and even the Avatar who was a citizen didn't even care about the state of her country just her hometown. If it was united then Chin should have never gotten as far as he did. The EK has and always will be torn, just filled with bandits and warlords, the FN was the best thing to happen to it.

A matter of weeks? Where are you getting that time frame from? And how does this prove anything about the Earth Kingdom at the time of Sozin's reign?

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I don't need to, the Fire Nation is literally filled with small villages, I'm not denying that, but none of them are raggedy like the Earth Kingdom ones lol. Sozin did say that the FN was in peak prosperity approximately 50 years before the war so you be the judge of that.

Not questioning the Fire Nation's prosperity in a broad sense, but you've done nothing to quantify that prosperity, using sources from the show, and compare it to the contemporary state of the other nations.

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Prove me wrong. I sure can't remember the Earth Kingdom having oil rigs or any factories but you seem confident enough to rebuke my statements. *Waits on proof*

I sure can't remember the Fire Nation at the time of Sozin's reign being shown to have any oil rigs or factories, either.  The burden of proof is on you to prove your claims about the disparity in the first place.

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Okay but you're wrong at Ozai. Never was it mentioned or shown that he had absurb plans to commit genocide against a country 10x larger than his. I'm guessing you are referring to Sozin's Comet... Common misconception by like 90% of the Avatar fandom but Ozai was going to burn down random land on his way to Ba Sing Se to incinerate the rest of the resistance. You're confused, I find it funny how people actually think Ozai was going to stupidly try and kill millions of people while destroying 100 years of hard work, all in one night lol. Azula didn't even suggest that and that's clearly not what he proposed to do at the meeting, his Phoenix speech was purely metaphorical and by the world being reborn in fire he was referring to Fire Nation rule. But anyways still not evil, just extreme actions to stop the evil Avatar from ruining everything.

Baloney. This is the part where it really starts to show that you're either trolling, or you can't even remember the show clearly.  This is the full conversation about what they were going to do on the day of the comet:

Ozai: Welcome, Prince Zuko. We waited for you.  General Shinu, your report.
Shinu: Thank you, sir. Ba Sing Se is still under our control. However, earthbender rebellions have prevented us from achieving total victory in the Earth Kingdom.
Ozai: What is your recommendation?
Shinu: Our army is spread too thin, but once the eclipse is over and the invasion defeated, we should transfer more domestic forces into the Earth Kingdom.
Ozai: Hmm. Prince Zuko, you've been among the Earth Kingdom commoners. Do you think that adding more troops will stop these rebellions?
Zuko: The people of the Earth Kingdom are proud and strong. They can endure anything, as long as they have hope.
Ozai: Yes, you're right. We need to destroy their hope.
Zuko: Well, that's not exactly what I-
Azula: I think you should take their precious hope and the rest of their land and burn it all to the ground.
Ozai: Yes ... [Cuts to Azula looking pleased.] Yes you're right, Azula. Sozin's Comet is almost upon us, and on that day, it will endow us with the strength and power of a hundred suns. No bender will stand a chance against us.
Shinu: What are you suggesting, sir?
Ozai: When the comet last came, my grandfather, Fire Lord Sozin, used it to wipe out the Air Nomads. Now, I will use its power to end the Earth Kingdom ... permanently.  From our airships, we will rain fire over their lands, a fire that will destroy everything; and out of the ashes, a new world will be born, a world in which all the lands are Fire Nation and I am the supreme ruler of everything!

Ba Sing Se is mentioned at the start, as still being under Fire Nation control.  But then Shinu moves on to say that rebellions were preventing victory in the Earth Kingdom, not specifying the rebellions having anything to do with Ba Sing Se. Shinu's recommendation was to transfer more forces to the Earth Kingdom.  Ozai asks Zuko about Earth Kingdom commoners in general, and Zuko replies in kind.  Azula suggests burning "the rest of their land" "all to the ground" -- not saying anything about Ba Sing Se.  Ozai's response is to say he will end the Earth Kingdom and that they will rain fire over their lands (plural), a fire that would destroy everything.

There is no indication that any part of this would be limited to or specifically directed at Ba Sing Se or the path to it.  "The rest of", "all", "lands", "everything".  The clear plan established in this conversation is to use the Comet to in fact destroy the entire Earth Kingdom.  Yes it's absurd -- it's absurd because it's evil and monstrous!  Ozai doesn't seem to give two farts about destroying 100 years of work as long as he is the "supreme ruler of everything" when all is said and done.

Amusing poster, though.  I can see that being a piece of war propaganda for the Fire Nation, just like I can see you being the Legend of Korra-era equivalent of someone who argues that Hitler, the Nazis, and the Third Reich weren't all that bad.  Or someone who gets on the future Avatar-verse equivalent of the Internet and pretends to support the Sozin, Azulon, and Ozai regimes just for kicks and giggles.
« Last Edit: Sep 04, 2017 01:13 am by Red Hawk » Logged
skybison
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« Reply #41 on: Sep 04, 2017 01:21 am »

I'm not a mugger, I was just peacefully borrowing that guys money and was met by him hitting my fist with his face.  He attacked first.
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« Reply #42 on: Sep 04, 2017 05:11 am »

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I keep Zuko's dagger & EK coat, Iroh's wisdom, Lu Ten's grave offerings | Mako's scarf, Naga, General Iroh's army outfit, Korra's new formal outfit
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