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Author Topic: Do Mai and ty lee even like Azula?  (Read 15378 times)
Dementedhamster6
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« on: Nov 28, 2006 06:07 pm »

Well this new season has usherd in some new villans. Azula has requested her best friends help her to capture the avatar. But do they even liker her at all? Or is just her possision that allows her to maintain these friends. I personally think there doing it because of the frinedship they share. Azula cares about both of them or she wouldv brought someone just as skilled to help her.
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dragonofthewest
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« Reply #1 on: Nov 28, 2006 06:10 pm »

Course they don't like her.  And she doesn't really "like" them.  Ty Lee is motivated solely by fear, and Mai has the extra inducement of boredom.  I think Azula likes the illusion of having friends but as for genuine care and commitment - nah.
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« Reply #2 on: Nov 28, 2006 06:14 pm »

I really don't know. It's possible either way. Ty Lee i know is motivated on fear, but is it the only thing. She was happy to see Azula in "Return to Omashu." Mai is harder to tell. She looked happy (or as close she gets to it) to see Ty Lee and Azula. But I don't doubt she's there just for some excitement.
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 28, 2006 06:34 pm »

I'ld say so.  Ty Lee and Mai were both very happy to see Azula.
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dragonofthewest
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« Reply #4 on: Nov 28, 2006 06:36 pm »

Would they dare to look unhappy?
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Dementedhamster6
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 28, 2006 06:36 pm »

Well did mai in the drill care what azulas orders was she didnt want to get all gooy. Mai and them are friends theyv known each other since early childhood and htey went to school together.
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dragonofthewest
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 28, 2006 06:41 pm »

Well did mai in the drill care what azulas orders was she didnt want to get all gooy. Mai and them are friends theyv known each other since early childhood and htey went to school together.

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if Mai and Ty Lee are genuine friends.  "Opposites attract" is true sometimes.  But the question is whether either of them are genuine friends with Azula.  We saw how Azula treated her "best buds" even in their childhood.  Bullying Ty Lee because she was a better acrobat and manipulating Mai for her own amusement.  True friendship does not grow from such antecedents.
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Dementedhamster6
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« Reply #7 on: Nov 28, 2006 06:45 pm »

The only reason they didnt bully her back was because shes a princess and there just nobles. I will say they dont seem genuine friends but whats a genuine friend in a fire nation where essentially every ones cold to each other. Regardless they would never turn there backs on her be it friendship or not unless they wanted to be braded as traitors but there style doesnt seem one to betray a friend or there country.
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 28, 2006 06:59 pm »

The only reason they didnt bully her back was because shes a princess and there just nobles. I will say they dont seem genuine friends but whats a genuine friend in a fire nation where essentially every ones cold to each other. Regardless they would never turn there backs on her be it friendship or not unless they wanted to be braded as traitors but there style doesnt seem one to betray a friend or there country.

Right hamster, that's my point.  If Azula wasn't who she is...if she was just a minor nobleman's daughter like they seem to be...they wouldn't give her the time of day if she treated them like she does.  Also, what a genuine friend is doesn't change just because you live in a cold-hearted society (which is perhaps a bad expression - if FN people's hearts are anything, it's not cold!); it simply means that no one is anyone's genuine friend.
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 28, 2006 07:04 pm »

((answering the question))

No I don't Think Mia and Ty-Lee like Azula. Azula was always a little mean to Mai (making Zuko jump on Mai and then laugh). Ty-Lee went with Azula because she was scared that Azula will keep on making her do all these crazy things at her circus. I think Azula chose them to be in her group because they each have a special skill

Mai --Shuriken
Ty-Lee--Can hit your pressure points and block your chi
Azula-- Master Firebender who can bend lightning
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dragonofthewest
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« Reply #10 on: Nov 28, 2006 07:08 pm »

Hee hee...I think Azula chose them so they could mirror Charlie's Angels and someone could come up with the name "Ozai's Angels".... Grin
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« Reply #11 on: Nov 28, 2006 07:15 pm »

It's not uncommon for friends to "fight" or "bully" each other, but it's in good fun. A playful scuff now and again during their childhood (ex. Azula tripping Ty Lee, and both Azula and Ty Lee playing a joke on Mai and Zuko) doesn't mean anything.

Besides, both Ty Lee and Mai (and with Mai that's saying something) were very happy to see Azula, and Azula also seemed genuinely happy to see them. Granted, Azula's method of...recruiting Ty Lee wasn't exactly "friendly," but I doubt she'd have done that if she thought Ty Lee actually could/would fall.
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Karalora
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« Reply #12 on: Nov 28, 2006 07:45 pm »

The exact nature of the relationship between those three is hard to pin down. On the one hand, Azula is almost certainly a sociopath who doesn't actually care about anyone but herself. Her cordial behavior upon greeting each of them in "Return to Omashu" should not be mistaken for warm feelings. She does, however, value their unique skills and has a higher opinion of them than of most people. Mai and Ty Lee, on the other hand, are probably normal non-sociopaths who genuinely like each other.

The real question, then, is as the OP says: how do Mai and Ty Lee feel about Azula? Probably the best way to describe it is cautious admiration. They are impressed by her, and conscious of the socioeconomic benefits of being the cronies of a princess, and they definitely prefer to stay on her good side. Additionally, they know she values their unique skills, and that gives them the confidence that as long as they do their job, everything will be hunky-dory. So they at least feel relaxed around her. They're not afraid of her, because they know how to avoid her wrath. And there's probably some sentimentality about the old school days there. It all adds up to a kind of casual fondness that they probably think of as "friendship."

Azula, for her part, wants them to be relaxed and to follow her willingly. Why? Because they will be more effective agents that way. I don't think she would actually have forced Ty Lee to come with her, simply because being hauled along under duress would adversely affect Ty Lee's competence and it would be a waste. Azula's threatening Ty Lee during the circus performance was her way of letting Ty Lee know that she meant business. It was a calculated move that depended on Ty Lee caving right away.

So basically what we have here between Azula on one side and Mai and Ty Lee on the other, is a dynamic that, while not truly friendship in the meaningful sense of the word, provides as many of the benefits of friendship as all the parties involved want. It even looks a little like friendship to outsiders.
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Dementedhamster6
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« Reply #13 on: Nov 28, 2006 07:46 pm »

It's not uncommon for friends to "fight" or "bully" each other, but it's in good fun. A playful scuff now and again during their childhood (ex. Azula tripping Ty Lee, and both Azula and Ty Lee playing a joke on Mai and Zuko) doesn't mean anything.

Besides, both Ty Lee and Mai (and with Mai that's saying something) were very happy to see Azula, and Azula also seemed genuinely happy to see them. Granted, Azula's method of...recruiting Ty Lee wasn't exactly "friendly," but I doubt she'd have done that if she thought Ty Lee actually could/would fall.
Thats true my friends and me do that to each other and were still friends. Even Aangs group does stuff like that to each other. Azula was smiling both times when she saw them to recruit them.
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Dementedhamster6
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 28, 2006 07:49 pm »

The exact nature of the relationship between those three is hard to pin down. On the one hand, Azula is almost certainly a sociopath who doesn't actually care about anyone but herself. Her cordial behavior upon greeting each of them in "Return to Omashu" should not be mistaken for warm feelings. She does, however, value their unique skills and has a higher opinion of them than of most people. Mai and Ty Lee, on the other hand, are probably normal non-sociopaths who genuinely like each other.

The real question, then, is as the OP says: how do Mai and Ty Lee feel about Azula? Probably the best way to describe it is cautious admiration. They are impressed by her, and conscious of the socioeconomic benefits of being the cronies of a princess, and they definitely prefer to stay on her good side. Additionally, they know she values their unique skills, and that gives them the confidence that as long as they do their job, everything will be hunky-dory. So they at least feel relaxed around her. They're not afraid of her, because they know how to avoid her wrath. And there's probably some sentimentality about the old school days there. It all adds up to a kind of casual fondness that they probably think of as "friendship."

Azula, for her part, wants them to be relaxed and to follow her willingly. Why? Because they will be more effective agents that way. I don't think she would actually have forced Ty Lee to come with her, simply because being hauled along under duress would adversely affect Ty Lee's competence and it would be a waste. Azula's threatening Ty Lee during the circus performance was her way of letting Ty Lee know that she meant business. It was a calculated move that depended on Ty Lee caving right away.

So basically what we have here between Azula on one side and Mai and Ty Lee on the other, is a dynamic that, while not truly friendship in the meaningful sense of the word, provides as many of the benefits of friendship as all the parties involved want. It even looks a little like friendship to outsiders.
Wow thats on the dot what i was thinking.
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dragonofthewest
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« Reply #15 on: Nov 28, 2006 07:56 pm »

Karalora, how do you know that T and M feel relaxed around Azula?  I get the opposite impression, in fact.  There is not actually much conversational give-and-take between them to go by (a telling sign in itself) but think of T's reaction to Azula's bad joke in "Appa's Lost Days": a nervous giggle, "oh, good one Azula!"  That smacks of toadying to me.  A real friend, unmotivated by fear, would simply groan at the bad pun.  All other interactions between them consist primarily of Azula simply ordering the girls to do this or that: "Follow the bison's trail!" "Take the earthbenders out!" 

And, you really think Ty Lee isn't under duress just because she caved to Azula's threat quickly?  She certainly isn't there as a free agent!

Hamster, do you and your friends really push one another to the ground if one of you excels at something another isn't so good at?  Roughhousing is one thing and bullying is another.
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Dementedhamster6
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« Reply #16 on: Nov 28, 2006 07:59 pm »

Karalora, how do you know that T and M feel relaxed around Azula?  I get the opposite impression, in fact.  There is not actually much conversational give-and-take between them to go by (a telling sign in itself) but think of T's reaction to Azula's bad joke in "Appa's Lost Days": a nervous giggle, "oh, good one Azula!"  That smacks of toadying to me.  A real friend, unmotivated by fear, would simply groan at the bad pun.  All other interactions between them consist primarily of Azula simply ordering the girls to do this or that: "Follow the bison's trail!" "Take the earthbenders out!" 

And, you really think Ty Lee isn't under duress just because she caved to Azula's threat quickly?  She certainly isn't there as a free agent!

Hamster, do you and your friends really push one another to the ground if one of you excels at something another isn't so good at?  Roughhousing is one thing and bullying is another.
I got the impression T was just an idiot....Like when she said your not prettier than we are. And we dont push each other to the ground but we make jokes at each other.
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« Reply #17 on: Nov 28, 2006 08:02 pm »

I got the impression T was just an idiot....Like when she said your not prettier than we are. And we dont push each other to the ground but we make jokes at each other.

Right.  But Azula does push T to the ground.  For no other reason than being better at acrobatics than she is.  And T doesn't react too happily.
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« Reply #18 on: Nov 28, 2006 08:04 pm »

And I assume you've never gotten a little miffed at your friends for random, meaningless things either...
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« Reply #19 on: Nov 28, 2006 08:08 pm »

A pretty basic flaw in any friendship is that,and pushing a friend to the ground and scaring another friend is not breaking new ground for anyone.
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« Reply #20 on: Nov 28, 2006 08:10 pm »

Holy crap.  No offense or anything, but I don't wanna be friends with you guys if that's your idea of a normal friendship.

Xgamerkf, of course I've gotten angry with my friends over trifles.  But I don't push them around over it.  I don't think my friends would remain my friends very long if I did act like that.  Unless I was FN royalty, of course.
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Darmani
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« Reply #21 on: Nov 28, 2006 10:21 pm »

Azula learned love from an abuser, she has abusive relationships.  this doesn't qualify as news.

Ultimately I think they are friends but they are flawed people Azula much more so that it's easier to say she's perfectly sculpted to the specifications of a sculptor with an alien aesthetic... if their psyches were statues.

Ty Lee's a lot less innoecent than you'd suspect but she's not as evil as that phrase would imply.  I suppose the best comparison is Harleen Quinzel.  A slightly more *mature* Harleen Quinzel.  Left to her own devices I think Harleen would crawl back to the joker and his ways (actually she has)  Ty Lee more or less decided to go in an op... well a different direction than the controlling abusive figure in her life.  Too bad hers came back with a mission and the inability to take no as an answer.

Mai...okay Rawles convinced me there might be more going upstairs with her than I initially gave her credit for but she's self-centered in a messed up way.  A teenage way she will at the very least grow out of given time but I just can't say being bored teen makes her flaws any less horrid.  She values nothing so much as her ... amusement/pleasure.  Azula can offer her more of what she wants but she has no respec I think for Azula.  It does surprise me Azula dare put up with her attitude in The Drill.  A regular military person I think might have chewed her out a new arsehole let alone Ms "Still Mulling It Over."  Perhaps there is a deeper and human relationship underneath the cruelty and drive to perfection.  But I think Mai's a girl who's playing with fire and thinks because she's been burned it can't hurt her.  Ty Lee isn't suffering under that delusion at least.

You have these functional but messed up people tied to each other not just out of direct contractual pressure but general social stuff.  When I first saw Azula's scene in RtO I equated it with yakuza tactics.  That is taking advantage of the collective everything is fine and sometimes nonconfrontational social contract to slowly pressure and squeeze and mold a person's will.  A fencing instead of a prodding or whipping to get the point across.  If Ty Lee requires, to vastly exagerate and simplify, the stick Mai just the carrot, or perhaps the number of that cute boy I once knew and am visiting today would you like to come.

A relationship born out of people using each other can work, in sense especially if there is love.  The presence of one doesn't exactly proof against the other.  But the thing is Azula is sociopath, their reactions say they know this.  How they are coping with this is telling me they won't or can't or aren't going to face the elephant in the room.  It's large but they won't cross it or acknowledge it.

Maybe they *want* to like her.  They like things about her.  And she's a former playmate but she's a dangerous and twisted individual who they know, given this or that, they can 'trust' her.  But I seriously worry they may have bitten off more they can chew and I think on some level they know *that*.   It's like being stuck just with the front tires over the crest of the hill and you're sputtering.  The accelerator isn't enough and the brakes might be safe but then you lose and could fail and defining the situation is the dread you'll fall back uncontrolled.

I don't make much sense huh?
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« Reply #22 on: Nov 28, 2006 10:33 pm »

Azula learned love from an abuser, she has abusive relationships.  this doesn't qualify as news.

Ultimately I think they are friends but they are flawed people Azula much more so that it's easier to say she's perfectly sculpted to the specifications of a sculptor with an alien aesthetic... if their psyches were statues.

Ty Lee's a lot less innoecent than you'd suspect but she's not as evil as that phrase would imply.  I suppose the best comparison is Harleen Quinzel.  A slightly more *mature* Harleen Quinzel.  Left to her own devices I think Harleen would crawl back to the joker and his ways (actually she has)  Ty Lee more or less decided to go in an op... well a different direction than the controlling abusive figure in her life.  Too bad hers came back with a mission and the inability to take no as an answer.

Mai...okay Rawles convinced me there might be more going upstairs with her than I initially gave her credit for but she's self-centered in a messed up way.  A teenage way she will at the very least grow out of given time but I just can't say being bored teen makes her flaws any less horrid.  She values nothing so much as her ... amusement/pleasure.  Azula can offer her more of what she wants but she has no respec I think for Azula.  It does surprise me Azula dare put up with her attitude in The Drill.  A regular military person I think might have chewed her out a new arsehole let alone Ms "Still Mulling It Over."  Perhaps there is a deeper and human relationship underneath the cruelty and drive to perfection.  But I think Mai's a girl who's playing with fire and thinks because she's been burned it can't hurt her.  Ty Lee isn't suffering under that delusion at least.

You have these functional but messed up people tied to each other not just out of direct contractual pressure but general social stuff.  When I first saw Azula's scene in RtO I equated it with yakuza tactics.  That is taking advantage of the collective everything is fine and sometimes nonconfrontational social contract to slowly pressure and squeeze and mold a person's will.  A fencing instead of a prodding or whipping to get the point across.  If Ty Lee requires, to vastly exagerate and simplify, the stick Mai just the carrot, or perhaps the number of that cute boy I once knew and am visiting today would you like to come.

A relationship born out of people using each other can work, in sense especially if there is love.  The presence of one doesn't exactly proof against the other.  But the thing is Azula is sociopath, their reactions say they know this.  How they are coping with this is telling me they won't or can't or aren't going to face the elephant in the room.  It's large but they won't cross it or acknowledge it.

Maybe they *want* to like her.  They like things about her.  And she's a former playmate but she's a dangerous and twisted individual who they know, given this or that, they can 'trust' her.  But I seriously worry they may have bitten off more they can chew and I think on some level they know *that*.   It's like being stuck just with the front tires over the crest of the hill and you're sputtering.  The accelerator isn't enough and the brakes might be safe but then you lose and could fail and defining the situation is the dread you'll fall back uncontrolled.

I don't make much sense huh?
I understand what your trying to say and of course they trust each other to back them up. i dont think Azula would just watch as her nemesis defeats her friends let alone let her nemesis do that in the first place. But they do get special treatement especially after that display of tearing appart her ships commander for not getting on shore 2 hours before its actually possibal. There friendship exsits but its diffrent from the others.
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« Reply #23 on: Nov 28, 2006 11:28 pm »

Azula is a friend to no one but herself.  I seriously doubt either Mai or Ty Lee like her, although I believe they do like each other.  Both are probably aware that Azula would be willing to hurt or sacrifice them to reach her goal, although they may be in some level of denial about it.  I suspect they will defect from her in time.  It will take something big, though, because although Mai might be willing to disobey Azula given some motivation, Ty Lee will need more motivation than Mai to make that jump--I still believe she'll leave, though.  They have a status quo, but it's based on a relationship dominated by a sociopath.  Something has to give, it's just a matter of how long it's going to take.
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« Reply #24 on: Nov 28, 2006 11:59 pm »

Hmm... the way I see it is that Mai and Ty Lee are basically Azula's keepers.  According to their initial reaction to meeting Azula again, I'd say that they are genuinely friends.  They knew each other since they were little kids and they're on a first name basis.  Have you ever heard anyone outside the royal family besides Mai and Ty Lee call Azula by her first name?  Even Mai's father had to call Azula by her title: Princess.

Perhaps Mai and Ty Lee know that there's something terribly wrong with their friend, but can't do anything about it.  They can't make Azula snap out of it without risking themselves due to the difference in status.  Instead, they put up with Azula's sociopathy because she is their friend.  It's kind of like having that one friend who somehow end up constantly making irresponsible choices.  In the modern world, Mai and Ty Lee probably would've prepared an intervention by now.  >_>

Meh... that's my take on it, anyways.  :p
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