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Author Topic: The Legend of Korra : One Year Out  (Read 36683 times)
Avatar Epsilon
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« Reply #75 on: Jan 08, 2016 05:03 pm »

but I just have a hard time seeing her as sitting back and doing nothing if she was in the area.

But we did see her doing something. She was healing the soldiers. We don't need to see anymore then that because it's not important.

Quote
I get that you want to NOT have the old characters appear, but since they didn't kill them off it just felt weird that they didn't appear in certain situations that they could have or most likely would've been present for. The overall plot didn't really suffer, but it just felt awkward at certain points.

I feel like this just kinda helps my argument for why they should have been killed off pre-series. Like you said, in the current role, they didn't make the plot suffer. That is a good thing. That means they did the role that was necessary of them.

The awkwardness thing is entirely subjective so I can't really debate that part (I didn't find it awkward), but again, that just kinda proves my point. If the characters weren't around and alive, you wouldn't have that awkwardness. You could just watch Book 2 for what it was instead of worrying about Katara's current activities.

The only other way to remove that awkwardness aside from removing the old characters entirely is to do what you say and include them more. LoK is already loaded with enough characters and subplots as it is though to the point where it was detrimental to the series. And now you are telling me that you want to add even MORE characters for the series to focus on? That would just make LoK's current problems even worse! Then you'd have more characters fighting for screentime. Even more subplots everywhere as now we would also be having Katara, Toph and Zuko thrown into the mix. So between those two options, just removing the old characters entirely would have been whats best for the series. It wouldn't be as detrimental. It would remove that awkwardness you feel. The only downside is that we wouldn't get our fanservice. And if the story and characters were good enough, that lack of fanservice wouldn't matter (whether the story was good enough can be an entirely different debate).

The thing is if they were going to put her in the vicinity of all the action, then it would've made sense for her to appear.

No, it wouldn't have. She is a very minor character in LoK. Her being in the healing hutts have nothing to do with what Korra was doing (or any of the other main characters) therefore, it would make no sense to see her.

Besides, we actually did see her in 212 when they brought Jinora to her...you know...when seeing her was actually relevant to the plot.  

How was that relevant?


Many reasons.

Most importantly, them having an excuse to take Jinora to Katara made it possible for us to see the fallout of Tonraqs failed offensive in the previous episode. We got to see all the injured soldiers and therefore, we had a reason for why the group had to attack the portal base alone. Also, the plot already made it so that Kya was having to constantly heal Jinora to keep her alive but Kya needed to go do other plot stuff for the finale. Therefore, Katara was the only logical person to turn to.

As for why they couldn't have just given Jinora to some faceless healing instead of Katara? The answer to that is just basic storytelling. You're supposed to avoid having random characters appear for plot convenience. If you have a character that can do a job (in this case Katara) then they should be the ones to do it...not some faceless character we haven't seen before. By having a known character perform the action, you make the audience automatically care more then if a nobody character did it.

It's the same reason why we had Senna explaining the situation to Korra instead of some random soldier.

Katara's appearance here wasn't the most important thing ever, but it made sense. She could do something no other character could do at the time and since they had to take Jinora somewhere anyway, it didn't sidetrack the plot...unlike having her counseling Korra in 204 would have.



« Last Edit: Jan 08, 2016 05:05 pm by Avatar Epsilon » Logged

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luvavatar
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« Reply #76 on: Jan 08, 2016 07:00 pm »

But by killing them off entirely it would've made the Legend of Korra feel a bit cut off from the first series and not exactly feel like a part of the Avatar world. I think that they could've cut down on adding several new characters that ultimately went nowhere and maybe have the few characters from the original series have somewhat bigger roles or at the very least be present in situations where it makes sense. Heck Katara probably wouldn't have needed to be shown speaking, but at the very least have her be in the courtroom sitting beside or behind Korra, let her at be in the crowd during her granddaughter's tattoo ceremony. Little scenes like that, wouldn't have been too hard in my opinion.

Moving on from the original series characters appearing, how about Team Avatar 2.0? I felt that there was too much drama just for the sake of drama, that love triangle was probably the worst decision to have been put in the show and it made everyone look all the worse for it. Asami is definitely a representation of wasted potential. After season 1 she pretty much lost any reason to be in the series. Everything that could've been interesting about her went to everyone else. Mako was the one who found out about Varrick taking over her company through underhanded means. She doesn't get to be a strategist of the group and the technological genius role was taken over by Varrick and later it was her father that helped them make that previously useless hummingbird suit be useful. Seriously what the heck were they planning to use those things for if all they could do was fly and have no sort of weapons, drills or cutting equipment? Sure she takes out mooks now and again, but that's not much either.

The problem I have with the show even now is how much I look back and think what could've been done to make it better. Its been over ten years since A:TLA came out and I can keep watching the entire series over and over again. I have yet to have any desire to do a marathon run of LOK. I think that the mini seasons definitely hurt in the long run, because they had to keep moving on to the next villain. I think that the issues of season 3 should've continued more prominently within season 4. The Red Lotus and a new empire emerging would have been more interesting to see, rather than dwelling on Korra's mental health issues. We should've gotten to see Team Avatar working on how to stop two issues, but having trouble with what is more important to focus on. Such as the Red Lotus having a point about tyranny, but Kuvira's empire also dealing with bringing stability and security to a nation that for the most part was comprised of a bunch of isolationist fiefdoms.
« Last Edit: Jan 10, 2016 11:35 pm by luvavatar » Logged
Avatar Epsilon
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« Reply #77 on: Jan 08, 2016 07:36 pm »

But by killing them off entirely it would've made the Legend of Korra feel a bit cut off from the first series and not exactly feel like a part of the Avatar world.

I disagree with this. Tenzin, Kya, Bumi, Lin, and Su would still be decedents of the old gaang. We would still have Aang as a presence in Book 1 as a past life (the flashback stuff from Book 1 is the only old character thing I wouldn't remove). We'd still have the Aang statue and the old characters would still be mentioned. It would still very much feel like it takes place in the same world.

How do you think the Star Trek Franchise has worked all these years?

Quote
I think that they could've cut down on adding several new characters that ultimately went nowhere

Oh, don't get me wrong, LoK has some pointless characters (Asami being the biggest culprit) but since LoK is it's own series and not ATLA 2, I would still rather the show try to make new characters that ultimately go nowhere then give us old characters that go nowhere. Seriously, if I want to see the old characters, I can just go watch ATLA. I don't need them in LoK.

Quote
Moving on from the original series characters appearing, how about Team Avatar 2.0?

Team Avatar 2.0 was unnecessary. It only happened because ATLA had a Team Avatar. And aside from Korra, they are not even great characters. Asami is the single worst character in the franchise for a number of reasons (some of which you listed). I'm not even going to go into detail why. I've posted enough about her problems. I'm sure most people around here know why I think that by now.

Mako and Bolin aren't bad...but they're not great either. Really they only get by because there is nothing really aggravating about them. They serve a purpose on the show at least. They aren't pointless like Asami or downright annoying like Meelo. Aside from those two characters though, Mako and Bolin are probably the weakest major characters in the series (some minor characters though like Eska are worse imo). Bolin seemed like he was going to be great in Book 4 but once he got back to RC he fell back onto his own shenanigans. Bolin is basically a worse Sokka and Mako a worse Zuko without the interesting backstory. They do the bare minimum for the requirements for successful characters. Basically they are the epitome of mediocrity.

I've always said Team Avatar was one of the weakest things in LoK. And yes, they were bogged down in WAY to much drama. We are agreed on that.

Quote
The problem I have with the show even now is how much I look back and think what could've been done to make it better.
It's been over ten years since A:TLA came out and I can keep watching the entire series over and over again. I have yet to have any desire to do a marathon run of LOK.[/quote]

I feel the same. I said something similar in my initial post in this thread I think. Though I did watch LoK all the way through once soon after it ended.

Quote
The Red Lotus and a new empire emerging would have been more interesting to see,
[/quote]

I think I made a lengthy post someone a few weeks ago on why the RL should have been back in Book 4 but in short, I agree with you on this to.

Honestly, I would have preferred Kuvira in an Anti-hero role (ultimately on Korra's side but her extreme measures create some verbal conflict between the two) with the RL being the main villains of Book 4.

Really, I think the heart of the issue with LoK as a whole is that Bryke just kinda through in stuff they thought would be cool without thinking much about how it is relevant to the actual story. The ending of Book 2 with Kaiju Korra is the biggest example since even Bryke admitted it doesn't make much sense but there are other examples as well. The Colossus (though I didn't have much of a problem with it personally), Asami, the movers, the sand shark in 310, the love triange, Korrasami, and many others are all things that were put in the series because Bryke just wanted to even if they didn't have an idea of what to do with those ideas or how to set up for them.

So really, I think LoK's biggest problem is a lack of restraint. No one was there to tell Bryke "no, this doesn't work".
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longman83
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« Reply #78 on: Jan 08, 2016 10:17 pm »

The thing is if they were going to put her in the vicinity of all the action, then it would've made sense for her to appear.

No, it wouldn't have. She is a very minor character in LoK. Her being in the healing hutts have nothing to do with what Korra was doing (or any of the other main characters) therefore, it would make no sense to see her.

Besides, we actually did see her in 212 when they brought Jinora to her...you know...when seeing her was actually relevant to the plot. 

How was that relevant?


Many reasons.

Most importantly, them having an excuse to take Jinora to Katara made it possible for us to see the fallout of Tonraqs failed offensive in the previous episode. We got to see all the injured soldiers and therefore, we had a reason for why the group had to attack the portal base alone. Also, the plot already made it so that Kya was having to constantly heal Jinora to keep her alive but Kya needed to go do other plot stuff for the finale. Therefore, Katara was the only logical person to turn to.

As for why they couldn't have just given Jinora to some faceless healing instead of Katara? The answer to that is just basic storytelling. You're supposed to avoid having random characters appear for plot convenience. If you have a character that can do a job (in this case Katara) then they should be the ones to do it...not some faceless character we haven't seen before. By having a known character perform the action, you make the audience automatically care more then if a nobody character did it.

It's the same reason why we had Senna explaining the situation to Korra instead of some random soldier.

Katara's appearance here wasn't the most important thing ever, but it made sense. She could do something no other character could do at the time and since they had to take Jinora somewhere anyway, it didn't sidetrack the plot...unlike having her counseling Korra in 204 would have.

Do we really need Katara and Senna as an excuse to reinforce what is by now a rather moot point (Tonraq's failed offensive), when the previous episode already showed us that, and the next one has the Krew initially informed via telegraph? Perhaps visuals would help us to care more, but at this point its too late. Until now the civil war conflict had been offscreen for half the season, carried by two insipid characters . Judging by your second paragraph, that's where Katara could arguably have been used more effectively: in helping set up the conflict earlier on, not showing us the aftermath when it doesn't matter and nobody cares.

That speaks to one of LoK's problems (and Book 2's in particular) which you have subsequently touched on with the Krew: telling a story through the wrong characters.
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« Reply #79 on: Jan 08, 2016 10:21 pm »

It worked in Star Wars because the fan-service had a point to it. Luke was important to the plot (he was the plot) and Han had connections to certain other major characters so that his inclusion was necessary for that character's development (I'm being vague to avoid heavy spoilers). It wasn't like Zuko showing up in Book 3 to do absolutely nothing. Han did something. The movie would have been very different without him. That's why it worked in Star Wars. It had a purpose. What you are talking about with LoK is just excuses for the old characters to get screentime.

This reminded me of a quote I recently read from Michael Ardnt, one of the screenwriters for Force Awakens:

“Early on I tried to write versions of the story where [Rey] is at home, her home is destroyed, and then she goes on the road and meets Luke. And then she goes and kicks the bad guy’s ass,” Arndt said. “It just never worked and I struggled with this. This was back in 2012.”

The trouble was a simple case of upstaging. “It just felt like every time Luke came in and entered the movie, he just took it over,” Arndt said. “Suddenly you didn’t care about your main character anymore because, ‘Oh f–k, Luke Skywalker’s here. I want to see what he’s going to do.’”
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« Reply #80 on: Jan 15, 2016 11:33 am »

It worked in Star Wars because the fan-service had a point to it. Luke was important to the plot (he was the plot) and Han had connections to certain other major characters so that his inclusion was necessary for that character's development (I'm being vague to avoid heavy spoilers). It wasn't like Zuko showing up in Book 3 to do absolutely nothing. Han did something. The movie would have been very different without him. That's why it worked in Star Wars. It had a purpose. What you are talking about with LoK is just excuses for the old characters to get screentime.

This reminded me of a quote I recently read from Michael Ardnt, one of the screenwriters for Force Awakens:

“Early on I tried to write versions of the story where [Rey] is at home, her home is destroyed, and then she goes on the road and meets Luke. And then she goes and kicks the bad guy’s ass,” Arndt said. “It just never worked and I struggled with this. This was back in 2012.”

The trouble was a simple case of upstaging. “It just felt like every time Luke came in and entered the movie, he just took it over,” Arndt said. “Suddenly you didn’t care about your main character anymore because, ‘Oh f–k, Luke Skywalker’s here. I want to see what he’s going to do.’”


I was kind of the opposite. I appreciated Katara passing the torch on initially. But when you have a fight come to her doorstep, her pupil and granddaughter go through stuff in Book 3, and no desire to go to Korra in Book 4 unless Korra went to her first (Aang should have sought out the Guru? Zuko should have asked Iroh to be banished with him? Come on! This is your husband's reincarnation with verifiable proof,) then it got sketchy.
They didn't do anything with Zuko so that was a waste and since they didn't I had no desire to see what he's going to do.
They did too much with Toph and given that it's Toph she was a sore thumb in Book 4 and would have made Korra more worthless than she already was both in her own mind and actuality.
Katara had things she should have done since she was included originally in their plans. That she didn't is a disservice to her character.

The Force Awakens had a lot of fan-service though.

a nation that for the most part was comprised of a bunch of isolationist fiefdoms.
And now is a bunch of individual democracies that couldn't support themselves in the first place.
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« Reply #81 on: Jan 15, 2016 06:51 pm »

Well, that's the point of Ardnt's quote. As long as Luke was in a position to steal the spotlight- whether or not he actually did- he was a distraction. So the next set of scriptwriters changed the nature of the story so that Luke was no longer in that position, and the audience could focus on the proper characters.

I agree that the passing of the torch from Katara was a worthwhile moment, but Katara should have been on her deathbed when it happened. Then at the end of Book Air, she wouldn't have needed to say, "I'm an utter incompetent who can't find the blocked Qi and/or the burst blood vessel that Amon created when he took your Bending." Then in Book Spirits, she wouldn't have needed to go hide in the healing huts. Then in Book Change, she wouldn't have needed to pretend to be old while Toph is walking around the world. Then in Book Balance, should wouldn't have stolen a role from a character with more meaning to the story to work with Korra during her rehabilitation.
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ahintoflime
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« Reply #82 on: Jan 23, 2016 11:58 pm »

Well, that's the point of Ardnt's quote. As long as Luke was in a position to steal the spotlight- whether or not he actually did- he was a distraction. So the next set of scriptwriters changed the nature of the story so that Luke was no longer in that position, and the audience could focus on the proper characters.

I agree that the passing of the torch from Katara was a worthwhile moment, but Katara should have been on her deathbed when it happened. Then at the end of Book Air, she wouldn't have needed to say, "I'm an utter incompetent who can't find the blocked Qi and/or the burst blood vessel that Amon created when he took your Bending." Then in Book Spirits, she wouldn't have needed to go hide in the healing huts. Then in Book Change, she wouldn't have needed to pretend to be old while Toph is walking around the world. Then in Book Balance, should wouldn't have stolen a role from a character with more meaning to the story to work with Korra during her rehabilitation.

Any particular character coming to mind that you would volunteer to have such a role for Book Balance? Especially considering that many people read sad Korra at the end of Book Change the wrong way apparently.

Star Wars the Force Awakens still had the audience zooming in on the old characters though. Would you say it worked for this movie and as a setup for future installments?
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« Reply #83 on: Jan 24, 2016 05:03 pm »

Any particular character coming to mind that you would volunteer to have such a role for Book Balance? Especially considering that many people read sad Korra at the end of Book Change the wrong way apparently.

Considering that we never got to see Korra's mother actually Waterbend at any point in the series, she'd be my first suggestion. However, a proper Korra fan could probably come up with something better.


Star Wars the Force Awakens still had the audience zooming in on the old characters though. Would you say it worked for this movie and as a setup for future installments?

Oh, definitely. I think the movie was a little too good at that, and could have used more focus on its own story.
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« Reply #84 on: Feb 11, 2016 09:48 pm »

What I do know is that I can't watch ATLA anymore. With korra, I just can't watch the other. I can't describe why. The I've come back to korra a few times since the finale and I am always shouting corrections to the plot and the script at the characters. I still don't feel like it is done and no amount of comics in the world is going to change that.

But you know what?

I still love it. And I think I love it because it had such tremendous potential. Holy cow, if they did this one right, it could have been better than ATLA.

But isnt Avatar is the main problem with LOK, though? I feel as if it weighed over the creators in a way that they felt like they had to please fans instead of giving the characters what the characters needed. I feel like that series was always in the back of their minds when they made decisions about LOK and I feel like that tainted it.

The whole series had bits and pieces of great things- tenzin's development in book 2 was excellent. But, it was against a backdrop of bad relationship writing and meandering side plots.

Korra's battle with unnavatu was legendary--but should it have been the second "boss" fight, or the last?

It's things like this that drag the entire story down. But I can't help loving what it could have been and what it represents in my mind. Maybe I'm Jay Gatsby and I'm building this up in my mind into something its not. Maybe it's the memories of being on the boards during Book 1 and how excited everyone was. Maybe it's korra herself and I have a crush on her and I don't even know it. I don't know. I'll probably just keep staring out across the bay at the green light in the darkness and dream of the Legend of Korra that could have been. 
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« Reply #85 on: Feb 11, 2016 11:19 pm »

I think you're right. "What could have been" - if four words perfectly summarize my feelings for Korra, they would be those. I recently re-watched the entire series, seeing if I, well... even wanted to continue writing(forum posts and otherwise) or thinking anything about it.

Given I'm posting this, the answer was obviously yes, especially after considering TLOK in a semi-vacuum and finding things and characters I never thought I'd see positively as funny, interesting, or decently to well written.

Speaking of expectations - if you go in expecting Bolin to be Sokka 2.0 comic relief, you'll be sorely disappointed by his comparative lack of intelligence, and likely find the character grating like I did for a long time. Wiping the want of Sokka away, and taking Bolin for who and what he is, he's fine. Probably the biggest reversal in opinion from the re-watch. It's in parallel with TLOK itself; take away the want of ATLA and it's decent to good overall.

It's not all good, though - other things struck me during the re-watch. I wrote down my impressions, but I'll probably never post them all. I will say this though, a point I have never heard before - I see certain aspects of TLOK's sound design and quality as lacking, from different voice acting instances to certain sound effects. Especially reverberations, and background noise such as the "hum-echo" of an empty room, or lack thereof, stood out. Before I watched DBZ Abridged (totally serious here), I never noticed it, but after, certain moments stuck out. Jinora with Kai inside The Hole during Season 3 had some auditory problems in this way(Why is Kai's voice not reverberating? Why only Jinora's?), as well as the lack of echo in Zaheer's jail cell, and compared to something like the semi-directional reverb of Lord Guru talking during parts of DBZ Abridged Season 2, it's just... odd. Saying "amazing musical score drowns out reverb" only explains so much of it, though. And some of the voice acting in what I linked sounds like the person is more "into it" than certain times in TLOK. Something minor, but noticed.
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« Reply #86 on: Feb 12, 2016 11:47 am »

After a year of being over, The Legend of Korra still stands as one of my all-time favorite tv shows. I am interested where the universe goes next, though it seems it is going to lie mostly dormant for many years. The A:TLA comics are ongoing and Korra comics are starting up, but I have a feeling they will not generate massive hype or great interest.
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« Reply #87 on: Feb 13, 2016 05:46 pm »


Quote
I think that they could've cut down on adding several new characters that ultimately went nowhere

Oh, don't get me wrong, LoK has some pointless characters (Asami being the biggest culprit) but since LoK is it's own series and not ATLA 2, I would still rather the show try to make new characters that ultimately go nowhere then give us old characters that go nowhere. Seriously, if I want to see the old characters, I can just go watch ATLA. I don't need them in LoK.

Quote
Moving on from the original series characters appearing, how about Team Avatar 2.0?

Team Avatar 2.0 was unnecessary. It only happened because ATLA had a Team Avatar. And aside from Korra, they are not even great characters. Asami is the single worst character in the franchise for a number of reasons (some of which you listed). I'm not even going to go into detail why. I've posted enough about her problems. I'm sure most people around here know why I think that by now.

Mako and Bolin aren't bad...but they're not great either. Really they only get by because there is nothing really aggravating about them. They serve a purpose on the show at least. They aren't pointless like Asami or downright annoying like Meelo. Aside from those two characters though, Mako and Bolin are probably the weakest major characters in the series (some minor characters though like Eska are worse imo). Bolin seemed like he was going to be great in Book 4 but once he got back to RC he fell back onto his own shenanigans. Bolin is basically a worse Sokka and Mako a worse Zuko without the interesting backstory. They do the bare minimum for the requirements for successful characters. Basically they are the epitome of mediocrity.

I've always said Team Avatar was one of the weakest things in LoK. And yes, they were bogged down in WAY to much drama. We are agreed on that.


I disagree that Team Avatar 2.0 was unnecessary. I think Korra needed Team Avatar. She needed friends. But, the writers never allowed them to be friends. They never gave them enough screen time to mold that friendship early on, which would have made them vastly more useful during the rest of the series. Book 3's interactions worked because of the time they spent together during Book 2, limited as it was, and a romance would have worked better in Book 3 than earlier. I'm still not sure why there had to be a romance at all, but whatever.

If memory serves, I know you hate Asami's guts, but that aside, I think it's a bit much calling her "useless". Really, no character is useless, just used improperly by the authors. This is the real problem. I don't feel as if the characters were allowed to have the arcs that would have improved their characters. There were rumors that Asami could have been an Equalist plant into Team Avatar and this would have added drama in a good way. But, she was turned useless by the writers, when they made her a random addition to the love triangle.

Asami herself is an excellent character. She just suffered from a bad case of "the writers shafted me." Speaking of which, Bolin suffered from that a lot. I don't think they could make up their mind, whether he should be the butt-monkey or actually have a character arc.

I blame Nick for a lot of this. If they had a proper writing team in place and 4 seasons at the very beginning, I think this would have been a completely different series. You can't expect the writers to keep the success going by having it renewed every season, for a new season. The story is just too long to tell. You can have multiple villains, but make it more reasonable. She battled the incarnation of evil in season 2. How do you top that?



 
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« Reply #88 on: Feb 13, 2016 07:03 pm »

I think it's a bit much calling her "useless". Really, no character is useless, just used improperly by the authors.

Asami herself is an excellent character. She just suffered from a bad case of "the writers shafted me."

I don't know why people keep using this argument. You could say that about anyone. Every character has potential to be great. Whether they are or not depends on what the writers to with them. So if a character is made useless by the writers (like Asami was), then the character is useless.

It doesn't matter what could have been or what potential a character had if that potential was never realized. Asami is not an excellent character. She had the POTENTIAL to be a good character but the writers turned her into a useless one....therefore, she is not a good character. The potential was not realized.

I mean, you basically said it yourself here:

Quote
But, she was turned useless by the writers, when they made her a random addition to the love triangle.

You just said she was useless. So I'm really not sure why you are disagreeing with me while also agreeing with me. We can point the finger of blame all we want but the end result is that we still have a useless character who merely had the potential to be good.
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« Reply #89 on: Feb 13, 2016 08:06 pm »

Asami is so far removed from the "Equalist plant femme fatale" notion that she pretty much counts as a completely different character. So it would be most accurate to say that a useless character was swapped in for one with the potential to be interesting or great. Whether the Equalist Plant Femme Fatale would have wound up interesting is something we'll never know, but I have my doubts given the rest of the series' failings. She might have wound up as a Zaheer, but could just as easily have been an Unalaq or Kuvira.
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« Reply #90 on: Feb 13, 2016 11:24 pm »

I think the difference between saying a useless character and a character that was failed by the writing is that fans draw art, and write fics, and have head canons that go beyond the show.  The act of creation goes on beyond what the Original creators intended or accomplished. 

Strictly based on canon, we could say Asami was useless.  (Although that is still subjective, based on what people are looking for.)  But very few fans at this point are content to stay strictly within canon.  We play the "what if" game, and Asami, maybe in part because of her failure, is an interesting vault of possibilities.
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ALTA_FAN
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« Reply #91 on: Feb 14, 2016 04:25 pm »

I think the difference between saying a useless character and a character that was failed by the writing is that fans draw art, and write fics, and have head canons that go beyond the show.  The act of creation goes on beyond what the Original creators intended or accomplished. 

Strictly based on canon, we could say Asami was useless.  (Although that is still subjective, based on what people are looking for.)  But very few fans at this point are content to stay strictly within canon.  We play the "what if" game, and Asami, maybe in part because of her failure, is an interesting vault of possibilities.

Dangnammit! Don't you go trying to make peace with the situation! This is what I mean.

However, what I am more concerned about: Mr. Epsilon, is that ALL you got out of my comments? I mean, sure, if you go looking for reasons to hate Asami, you'll find them, but I was trying to address the larger idea that Korra actually desperately needed Team Avatar. Korra the character needed friends. It was an important part of Aang's journey and development and pretending otherwise is unrealistic and absurd.

Working my way through season 2 has really made me understand how much people forget about the show after seeing it. Yes, unalaq is two-dimensional. But this book is far from being the steaming pile of polar bear dog excrement it is popularly referred to as.

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Avatar Epsilon
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« Reply #92 on: Feb 14, 2016 04:49 pm »

I think the difference between saying a useless character and a character that was failed by the writing is that fans draw art, and write fics, and have head canons that go beyond the show.  The act of creation goes on beyond what the Original creators intended or accomplished. 

Again, though, that doesn't really change whether a character is actually good or not. An author or artist making a bad character interesting is a testament to how good the author or artist is...not an indication of a good character. You could have a failed character like Asami and still have someone make something out of it if they tried hard. That doesn't suddenly make Asami a better character.

However, what I am more concerned about: Mr. Epsilon, is that ALL you got out of my commets?  I was trying to address the larger idea that Korra actually desperately needed Team Avatar.

I honestly just kinda forgot to address that point. My bad. But I will now.

And I'll also still maintain that she doesn't. You're right that friends were an important part to Aang's journey, but Korra's? I'm not seeing it.

More often then not Korra went off without the rest of the Team or they simply just caused drama for her. Take Book 2 for example. All of the spirit stuff, Korra did without Mako, Bolin or Asami (resulting in that pointless RC sideplot). At best, Mako and Bolin served as background sidekicks in episodes 202 and the finale. They never did anything noteworthy though when it came to Korra's plotline. You could take them out and the plot of Book 2 would have been the same, minus the RC stuff which wasn't needed anyway.

Book 4 was similar. Korra didn't even talk to any of them until episode 407 and then what happened? Drama happened. Asami gave her a hard time for leaving. Mako gave her a hard time for not talking to him over the years. And after that episode? Well apart from Mako playing a sidekick role in 409, Team Avatar wasn't doing anything thing that the other characters were doing. There was nothing they did that gave the impression of a Team Avatar. They were just part of the larger ensemble fighting the Colossus. Team Avatar as itself wasn't important in the slightest.

Book 3 is really the only Book were Team Avatar felt like a legitimate thing, but even then, it lacked importance to Korra as a character (I'll get to why that is important in a second).

I saved Book 1 for last because I think episode 108 is a perfect example of why we didn't need a Team Avatar to begin with. This is the episode where it first forms. Where the four declare themselves as a team. What happens next? Mako, Bolin, and Asami get captured 7 minutes later leaving Korra by herself again...which ultimately leads to Korra's development as she confronts Tarrlok on her own and connects with Aang. By doing this, the episode basically admits that Mako, Bolin, and Asami are unneeded. It shuffled them off faster then it possibly could so Korra could actually do stuff.

Mako, Bolin and Asami are side characters that were put into a Team Avatar by the writers for the sole reason because Aang had a Team Avatar.

Aang's Team Avatar was important because it lead to his growth as a character. With Korra though...her development is completely disconnected from Team Avatar (as I mention about Book 3), which is the main reason why I say Team Avatar in LoK is unneeded.

I mean, name a major development Korra had in the series that was connected to Team Avatar? Again, Korra ran off on her own in Book 2 and went on a spiritual journey and calmed down her aggressiveness as a result. Nothing to do with Team Avatar.

In Book 3 Korra learned self-sacrifice and took charge in her own quest...again, nothing to do with Team Avatar.

In Book 4, Korra had to get over her trauma...which again, had nothing to do with her connection to Team Avatar.

Basically, Team Avatar was just sort of a thing Korra came back to AFTER all the important character stuff for her happened. They weren't actually important to her though. Korra can have friends without there being a Team Avatar. The notion of a Team Avatar in LoK was just unnecessary though. Korra more often then not was fine without it.

I know I kinda rushed through the end there when talking about Korra's development in relation to the team but I have somewhere to be. If you want me to go into more detail later I can. Smiley

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« Reply #93 on: Feb 14, 2016 05:23 pm »

The real Team Avatar was Tenzin, Lin, Iroh I, and Zaheer.
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« Reply #94 on: Feb 14, 2016 05:42 pm »

Quote
I mean, name a major development Korra had in the series that was connected to Team Avatar? Again, Korra ran off on her own in Book 2 and went on a spiritual journey and calmed down her aggressiveness as a result. Nothing to do with Team Avatar.


They taught her that crying like a baby on a cliffside is pointless when you can beat people up as a team to relieve your stress about not being able to airbend. So yeah, lesson learned, you don't have to face all of your problems by yourself.(Mako said something along those lines and used Aang's team as an example)

Oh Mako taught her not to be such a whiney controlling freak when it comes to relationships when they were dating.

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longman83
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« Reply #95 on: Feb 14, 2016 09:40 pm »

Quote
I mean, name a major development Korra had in the series that was connected to Team Avatar? Again, Korra ran off on her own in Book 2 and went on a spiritual journey and calmed down her aggressiveness as a result. Nothing to do with Team Avatar.

http://hdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/korra/108/0415.jpg
They taught her that crying like a baby on a cliffside is pointless when you can beat people up as a team to relieve your stress about not being able to airbend. So yeah, lesson learned, you don't have to face all of your problems by yourself.(Mako said something along those lines and used Aang's team as an example)

If I may add to Avatar Epsilon's good observations, this scene here demonstrates how Team Avatar 2.0 got in the way of Korra's development. If memory serves me right, in the previous scene Tenzin suggested that Korra meditating on her visions of Aang may help breakthrough the airbending block. Next thing, she's sobbing on a cliff about not being able to airbend or solve the city's problems. Hello, what about Tenzin's idea? Then the Krew show up, and settle on driving around in a car busting crime, (Um, Korra, have you forgotten what happened with your first vigilante crime busting spree in RC?) This one doesn't fare much better; and eventually Korra gets kidnapped and runs out of options before going 'o yeah, Tenzin's idea!' and finally learns something...one episode later.

We could even go back to the first instance of the Aang visions, which was the conclusion of Voice in the Night. Pretty heavy conclusion and you'd think the next one would build on its revelations. Next episode - Spirit of Shipping feat. the Krew. Great...

Perhaps 'Team AntiAvatar' would be a better name for them.
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« Reply #96 on: Feb 15, 2016 06:31 pm »

Perhaps 'Team AntiAvatar' would be a better name for them.
The Red Lotus already took that Cheesy
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« Reply #97 on: Feb 19, 2016 06:56 pm »

I stand by my belief that the end of the Earth Kingdom's monarchy was very badly implemented. As a self-proclaimed constitutional monarchist, I would have preferred to see the Earth Kingdom stay, well, a kingdom, but I would have been fine with the monarchy ending if it was built up to better. As it is, Wu seems to just decide out of the blue to end the monarchy without any good reason in universe to do so. It just seemed to be done due to a sense of "Well, the Avatarverse is becoming more modern, in the real world republics have replaced monarchies over time, ergo the same thing should happen in the Avatarverse" without any real understanding of why those changes occurred.
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« Reply #98 on: Feb 19, 2016 07:19 pm »

I think Wu was ending the monarchy because he realized he had no business running anything, and the system of monarchy said he was the most qualified to rule the Earth Kingdom. Ergo, the entire system was completely wrong.

But I stand by your standing by the criticism of bad implementation. Wu's realizing that he's incompetent didn't stem from anything that happened in the finale.
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« Reply #99 on: Feb 19, 2016 09:07 pm »

I think Wu was ending the monarchy because he realized he had no business running anything, and the system of monarchy said he was the most qualified to rule the Earth Kingdom. Ergo, the entire system was completely wrong.

But I stand by your standing by the criticism of bad implementation. Wu's realizing that he's incompetent didn't stem from anything that happened in the finale.

He was redeemed by discovering the inherent goodness of DEMOCRACY!
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"The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light."
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