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Author Topic: [DH Comics #12] Smoke and Shadow, Part 3  (Read 7571 times)
Loopy
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« Reply #50 on: Mar 21, 2016 05:25 pm »

I'm undecided about whether that Grovel line was supposed to be funny, or it just wound up that way.
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« Reply #51 on: Mar 21, 2016 07:10 pm »

Wound up that way. I've always found Ozai, his hamminess, and nearly everything he says extremely funny. His voice actor killed it.
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« Reply #52 on: Mar 21, 2016 07:19 pm »

Agreed. Though the writing had much to do with it. I found the whole subplot involving him and Ursa kind of soap opera-ish.

in addition, I suppose the reason why I didn't like it was because it seems to imply that the Search really happened and Ursa is recovering from basically being kidnapped and forced to breed.
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« Reply #53 on: Mar 22, 2016 07:00 am »

Quote
in addition, I suppose the reason why I didn't like it was because it seems to imply that the Search really happened and Ursa is recovering from basically being kidnapped and forced to breed.
I don't think it's the kidnapping and breeding part she's recovering from, we've already seen that Ursa enjoys the Royal treatment. It's years of Ozai's abuse and threats she had to endure, what her children were also put through. Ozai specializes in inducing fear, everyone in the world from Aang to Zuko were afraid of him.


Just look at how he yanks her up and balls his fist, even the servants look worried for Ursa. This leads me to conclude that Ozai beat her.
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« Reply #54 on: Mar 22, 2016 10:04 am »

Or the servants could be alarmed that the prince is suddenly displaying aggressive and violent behaviour.

And I don't think Azulon would approve of beating the descendant of Avatar Roku who is also the mother of more potential "superior" offspring. You can't injure the precious "broodmare".
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« Reply #55 on: Mar 22, 2016 10:22 am »

I think reading the scene that way is acceptable. The problem is that I don't like Gene's vision of Ursa's past, which to me, goes against what we saw in the show. It lends itself to turning Ursa into some kind of "survivor." Which might be inspirational to some, but is something I don't care for in this context. Ursa should go back to being a noble who had an arranged marriage with Ozai that was basically not-terrible until one fateful night.
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« Reply #56 on: Mar 22, 2016 10:44 am »

Ursa should go back to being a noble who had an arranged marriage with Ozai that was basically not-terrible until one fateful night.
Yeah, I kind of wish Gene got that memo.

I'll still keep re-reading Karalora's Excerpts from the Diary of Princess Ursa. It's the perfect What If? Ursa was a noble story.
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« Reply #57 on: Mar 22, 2016 11:27 am »

Quote
Or the servants could be alarmed that the prince is suddenly displaying aggressive and violent behaviour.
But Ozai was always aggressive and intimidating so that shouldn't surprise them. They were expecting a pissed Ozai to wound Ursa.

Quote
And I don't think Azulon would approve of beating the descendant of Avatar Roku who is also the mother of more potential "superior" offspring. You can't injure the precious "broodmare".
Azulon isn't worried about Ozai's family manners. He didn't even care about Zuko and his failure bending, and ordered Ozai to kill him. Ursa was just there to make babies, Azulon shows no signs of caring about her just like he doesn't care about Ozai. Iroh was presummably the only person he cared about.
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« Reply #58 on: Mar 22, 2016 11:29 am »

Which made the whole taking Ursa for a eugenics project all the more confusing, especially when the son of his direct heir died which should've made Zuko and Azula far more important.
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« Reply #59 on: Mar 22, 2016 11:52 am »

Which made the whole taking Ursa for a eugenics project all the more confusing, especially when the son of his direct heir died which should've made Zuko and Azula far more important.
Ozai and Ursa are still capable of making babies. People in the Avatar verse have children at older ages, Sozin had Azulon while he was elderly.
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« Reply #60 on: Mar 22, 2016 01:32 pm »

These reviews are Loopy Approved TM.
Too kind! Your review was very entertaining, certainly hits home my frustrations with Smoke and Shadow have some potentially good concepts that were mismanaged horribly.

Which made the whole taking Ursa for a eugenics project all the more confusing, especially when the son of his direct heir died which should've made Zuko and Azula far more important.
I always used to read the scene where Azulon orders Zuko's death as a mixture of him being angry at Ozai, mournful over Lu Ten and quite possibly old, senile and mad with power. Thinking about it now, I think it's a perfectly reasonable assumption to say that Azulon might just have been playing kingmaker (firelordmaker?) and using Ozai's brazen demand as an excuse to justify putting Azula in line for the throne (presumably after Iroh and Ozai).
The eugenics thing seems to suggest that Azulon was a man who considered the future lineage of the Fire Nation Royalty to be of great importance. Lu Ten's death would have knocked him for six but you can guarantee that he would have considered Azula a much more preferable back up plan to Zuko.
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« Reply #61 on: Mar 22, 2016 02:56 pm »

Which made the whole taking Ursa for a eugenics project all the more confusing, especially when the son of his direct heir died which should've made Zuko and Azula far more important.
Ozai and Ursa are still capable of making babies. People in the Avatar verse have children at older ages, Sozin had Azulon while he was elderly.
I don't think that Azulon was pushing for that route, he seemed uninterested with Ozai and his family entirely.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #62 on: Mar 22, 2016 03:20 pm »

Which made the whole taking Ursa for a eugenics project all the more confusing, especially when the son of his direct heir died which should've made Zuko and Azula far more important.
Ozai and Ursa are still capable of making babies. People in the Avatar verse have children at older ages, Sozin had Azulon while he was elderly.
I don't think that Azulon was pushing for that route, he seemed uninterested with Ozai and his family entirely.

I guess Azulon didn't take this whole "eugenics project" that seriously. At the beginning, he was just happy that it apparently worked. Later, it became too expensive to simply dismantle, so Azulon let it go and focus only the single good thing that had come out of it (Azula). He might have thought that prompting Ozai to kill Zuko would clear up house (Ozai kills Zuko, angry Ursa kills Ozai, dying Ozai kills Ursa). 
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« Reply #63 on: Mar 22, 2016 03:34 pm »

Which made the whole taking Ursa for a eugenics project all the more confusing, especially when the son of his direct heir died which should've made Zuko and Azula far more important.
Ozai and Ursa are still capable of making babies. People in the Avatar verse have children at older ages, Sozin had Azulon while he was elderly.
I don't think that Azulon was pushing for that route, he seemed uninterested with Ozai and his family entirely.

I guess Azulon didn't take this whole "eugenics project" that seriously. At the beginning, he was just happy that it apparently worked. Later, it became too expensive to simply dismantle, so Azulon let it go and focus only the single good thing that had come out of it (Azula). He might have thought that prompting Ozai to kill Zuko would clear up house (Ozai kills Zuko, angry Ursa kills Ozai, dying Ozai kills Ursa). 

The eugenics project didn't really make any sense to begin with anyway. If your plan is to unite the lineages of Roku with that of the Fire Lord, it doesn't make sense to wed Roku's only available descendant to your second son and have his children be part of a cadet branch. Unless, of course, ol' Azulon's plan was to wed Azula and Lu Ten and that's getting into territory too weird for a Nickelodeon franchise.
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Loopy
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« Reply #64 on: Mar 22, 2016 05:10 pm »

I'll still keep re-reading Karalora's Excerpts from the Diary of Princess Ursa. It's the perfect What If? Ursa was a noble story.

Although as an engineer I have trouble with the word "perfect" being applied to anything in the real world, I agree that it's the best look at the character in the fandom. Whenever people ask me what I was expecting for Ursa's backstory, I drop a link and say, "Something like that."


Which made the whole taking Ursa for a eugenics project all the more confusing, especially when the son of his direct heir died which should've made Zuko and Azula far more important.
Ozai and Ursa are still capable of making babies. People in the Avatar verse have children at older ages, Sozin had Azulon while he was elderly.
I don't think that Azulon was pushing for that route, he seemed uninterested with Ozai and his family entirely.

I guess Azulon didn't take this whole "eugenics project" that seriously. At the beginning, he was just happy that it apparently worked. Later, it became too expensive to simply dismantle, so Azulon let it go and focus only the single good thing that had come out of it (Azula). He might have thought that prompting Ozai to kill Zuko would clear up house (Ozai kills Zuko, angry Ursa kills Ozai, dying Ozai kills Ursa). 

The eugenics project didn't really make any sense to begin with anyway. If your plan is to unite the lineages of Roku with that of the Fire Lord, it doesn't make sense to wed Roku's only available descendant to your second son and have his children be part of a cadet branch. Unless, of course, ol' Azulon's plan was to wed Azula and Lu Ten and that's getting into territory too weird for a Nickelodeon franchise.

Well, Azulon didn't necessarily want an UberChild to be Fire Lord. Perhaps he figured that they would simply serve as highly capable seconds to Lu Ten's line. And they could always wait a generation or two for a more palatable cousin or second-cousin marriage.

But I agree with AtoMaki that Azulon was probably just experimenting, and not worrying too much about the real fallout of either success or failure.
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« Reply #65 on: Mar 22, 2016 05:44 pm »

Ursa should go back to being a noble who had an arranged marriage with Ozai that was basically not-terrible until one fateful night.
Yeah, I kind of wish Gene got that memo.

I'll still keep re-reading Karalora's Excerpts from the Diary of Princess Ursa. It's the perfect What If? Ursa was a noble story.

I'm liking the story too, but some parts are really embaressing to read through. Anyway, I always assumed Ursa's life was something like that.
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« Reply #66 on: Mar 22, 2016 07:08 pm »

Quote
Well, Azulon didn't necessarily want an UberChild to be Fire Lord. Perhaps he figured that they would simply serve as highly capable seconds to Lu Ten's line. And they could always wait a generation or two for a more palatable cousin or second-cousin marriage.
Azulon wanted to mix more power into the Royal bloodline to ensure his families's rule for many more generations, plus they were already the powerful before Ursa got involved. Azulon didn't care because he was already a very cruel old man and frankly there was no reason why he should have, his favored son Iroh was still alive.

Quote
But I agree with AtoMaki that Azulon was probably just experimenting, and not worrying too much about the real fallout of either success or failure.
It's quite evident he never cared. He most certainly had no plans to put his failure son on the throne. Keep in mind that it's the males choice in arranged marriages, Ozai had a choice to marry Ursa.

Quote
The eugenics project didn't really make any sense to begin with anyway. If your plan is to unite the lineages of Roku with that of the Fire Lord, it doesn't make sense to wed Roku's only available descendant to your second son and have his children be part of a cadet branch.
How does it not make sense? He wanted to fuse two powerful bloodlines together to have stronger descendents ensuring his families rule for many more generations, Mission accomplished. Whether Ozai was first born or not, he and his kids are still apart of the family and are liable to take the throne. Ever consider that Ozai was the one eager to get with Ursa because he doesn't want weak children? I don't think Azulon forced him or anything, especially when he clearly didn't care.

Quote
I don't think that Azulon was pushing for that route, he seemed uninterested with Ozai and his family entirely.
He just wanted Ozai to feel the pain of losing a first born. Azulon can't stop him from having another child. As for being uninterested, that's not surprising, the guy only cared about power and domination.
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Icy_Ashford
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« Reply #67 on: Mar 22, 2016 07:26 pm »

Quote
Or the servants could be alarmed that the prince is suddenly displaying aggressive and violent behaviour.
But Ozai was always aggressive and intimidating so that shouldn't surprise them. They were expecting a pissed Ozai to wound Ursa.

Quote
And I don't think Azulon would approve of beating the descendant of Avatar Roku who is also the mother of more potential "superior" offspring. You can't injure the precious "broodmare".
Azulon isn't worried about Ozai's family manners. He didn't even care about Zuko and his failure bending, and ordered Ozai to kill him. Ursa was just there to make babies, Azulon shows no signs of caring about her just like he doesn't care about Ozai. Iroh was presummably the only person he cared about.
As I've told you countless times, my opinions and interpretations are valid and there is no need to insist that your interpretation is 100% correct and true.

We're all speculating, really. And that's what fan fiction and fan art are for.
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Red Lotus Grandmaster
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« Reply #68 on: Mar 31, 2016 06:50 am »

So the power rankings for firebending need to be reworked if Kiyi can just straight up melt metal. Even the Comet enhanced firebenders in AtLA couldn't do that feat.

I am glad I'm not the only person who noticed that. When she did that, I was like whaaaaat? Tbh, I don't think the author realised what he was doing when he wrote that scene. Her flames would need around 1300 degrees to acomplish that. Then again, she is from Roku's blood line
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« Reply #69 on: Mar 31, 2016 03:12 pm »

So the power rankings for firebending need to be reworked if Kiyi can just straight up melt metal. Even the Comet enhanced firebenders in AtLA couldn't do that feat.

I am glad I'm not the only person who noticed that. When she did that, I was like whaaaaat? Tbh, I don't think the author realised what he was doing when he wrote that scene. Her flames would need around 1300 degrees to acomplish that. Then again, she is from Roku's blood line
The door had to be thin and cheaply made, and Kiyi was practicing her breathing for a hotter blast. There was also an occasion where Zuko and Roku melted metal through metal chains instantly. But even if that wasn't the case, I don't even care, it just goes to show that firebending can rival temperatures of lavabending along with countering metalbending.
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« Reply #70 on: Mar 31, 2016 04:01 pm »

It wasn't that thin and also it was a poorly done part in the comics, again. It didn't make me think of how powerful firebending is now, it made me think that the writers don't care about throwing everything out the window.
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« Reply #71 on: Apr 01, 2016 05:40 am »

Still the door possibly could've been cheap. It would make sense because they wouldn't need strong and durable  prison cell metal to hold a bunch of toddlers. Whereas it took Mako a minute to burn through two bars while in prison.
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« Reply #72 on: Apr 01, 2016 07:51 am »

it took Mako a minute to burn through two bars while in prison.

Citation needed. Or actually, no. No it's not needed. I don't need to be reminded of LoK.

So the power rankings for firebending need to be reworked if Kiyi can just straight up melt metal. Even the Comet enhanced firebenders in AtLA couldn't do that feat.

I am glad I'm not the only person who noticed that. When she did that, I was like whaaaaat? Tbh, I don't think the author realised what he was doing when he wrote that scene. Her flames would need around 1300 degrees to acomplish that. Then again, she is from Roku's blood line

I guess Toph is related to Kyoshi and Katara to Kuruk and Aang to Yangchen (not in an Avatar to Avatar way) to explain their amazing feats. Can't it just be that Azula and Zuko worked to get to where they were and used their passions to drive their firebending rather than being on the right track, baby cause they were born this way?
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« Reply #73 on: Apr 01, 2016 11:08 am »

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Citation needed. Or actually, no. No it's not needed. I don't need to be reminded of LoK.


Take a good look.
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« Reply #74 on: Apr 12, 2016 09:12 am »

I think one of the greatest missed moments was also Iroh not speaking with Ozai as well.
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