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Author Topic: [DH Comics #11] Smoke and Shadow, Part 2  (Read 13560 times)
Ikkin
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« Reply #100 on: Jan 13, 2016 07:15 am »

And while headcanons are cool, I still consider the idea that two pre-lion turtle bending-capable civilizations somehow remained intact through the era of the lion turtles to be completely unbelievable.

Well, we already have the Wan statue surviving 10k years of Lion Turtle-free turmoil, including a fire-focused genocide that literally happened from an arm's length away from it (a very inconvenient event provided that the statue was made from wood), so I think civilizations continuing under the guidance of benevolent all-powerful creatures is far less a stretch than, say, a completely random disappearance of bending that assumes at least a dozen different circumstances to be even distantly possible (and even then, it is highly arguable that it even could be possible, and most of its assumptions are based on... further assumptions).

I mean, all this, "then bending and civilization went poof because of reasons" thing is way more ridiculous IMHO than the Lion Turtles being a bit more assertive with their protection. 

a) Wan's statue looked like a ten thousand year old statue and would have been under the protection of active airbenders for all but 100 years of the time it existed.  A ton of other wooden stuff survived the Sozin's Comet attack too (like the super fragile airbending gates), so it's not even a unique case.

b) The only circumstance required for a near-complete disappearance of bending is for people not to figure out how to activate bending without lion turtle help for a while.  That's it. 

But, most importantly -- and most related to the comic --

c) There doesn't even need to be a complete disappearance of bending for the events shown in the comic to work post-lion turtle.  You yourself admitted that the painting on the wall looks like the Fire Lord learning from the Sun Warriors.  Bryke's current position is that "learning bending" from the animal masters means learning a proper style rather than learning how to control the elements.  Ergo, the animal master story for firebending could just involve the people who had the powers already breaking off into their own society and learning the forms upon recognition of the dragons as masters, and the one for earthbending could involve terrifyingly-powerful earthbenders showing up in a society that had a few weak "earth throwers."

My only solid position here is this: the comic's attempt to claim that it may have happened before the Avatar came into the picture is absurd.  There are a number of different explanations for why the events shown could have easily taken place after the lion turtles left, almost all of which involve fewer figurative epicycles than a theory that requires two completely unrelated societies to a) survive the apocalypse, b) move wholesale to the lion turtles backs while maintaining immovable cultural artifacts, and c) move wholesale back to their prior location and restart society as if none of that had happened.  I don't particularly care which alternative is most ideal, though, so long as there's at least one that's less absurd than that.
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« Reply #101 on: Jan 13, 2016 08:28 am »

My only solid position here is this: the comic's attempt to claim that it may have happened before the Avatar came into the picture is absurd. 

I wouldn't call it absurd, only surprising. It is pretty much the first time the comics kick into the TLOK lore, so it naturally comes off as rather confusing.

There are a number of different explanations for why the events shown could have easily taken place after the lion turtles left, almost all of which involve fewer figurative epicycles than a theory that requires two completely unrelated societies to a) survive the apocalypse, b) move wholesale to the lion turtles backs while maintaining immovable cultural artifacts, and c) move wholesale back to their prior location and restart society as if none of that had happened

All three things are entirely possible if the Lion Turtles literally picked up those societies - those cities on their backs were probably not built out of thin air. By protecting humanity one would think that the Lion Turtles made at least a token effort to preserve existing social and cultural constructs, including historical records and such. It all makes sense if you think about it, and the only problem here is that the Lion Turtles seemed to be more passive (if not downright counter-active) with their protection.
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« Reply #102 on: Jan 13, 2016 07:10 pm »

My only solid position here is this: the comic's attempt to claim that it may have happened before the Avatar came into the picture is absurd.  There are a number of different explanations for why the events shown could have easily taken place after the lion turtles left, almost all of which involve fewer figurative epicycles than a theory that requires two completely unrelated societies to a) survive the apocalypse, b) move wholesale to the lion turtles backs while maintaining immovable cultural artifacts, and c) move wholesale back to their prior location and restart society as if none of that had happened.  I don't particularly care which alternative is most ideal, though, so long as there's at least one that's less absurd than that.

Wasn't that just character dialogue? I don't think any of the characters in Zuko's little Team DaVinci Code actually know the story of Wan or the Lionturtles. Aang didn't even know Yanchen's history until fairly recently, and as far as we know, he hasn't been floating in any magic spirit saunas.
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Ikkin
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« Reply #103 on: Jan 13, 2016 10:48 pm »

My only solid position here is this: the comic's attempt to claim that it may have happened before the Avatar came into the picture is absurd.


I wouldn't call it absurd, only surprising. It is pretty much the first time the comics kick into the TLOK lore, so it naturally comes off as rather confusing.

The idea that people would have had a city called Omashu before the lion turtles, stayed on the lion turtles long enough that no one seemed to remember anything else, made another city called Omashu in the exact same place, and somehow managed to forget about the move seems pretty absurd to me.  Same goes for the idea of people making the Dragonbone Catacombs to memorialize the story of the first Fire Lord, moving to the lion turtles, recreating their society in the same area, and somehow managing to forget about the move.  =P


Quote
There are a number of different explanations for why the events shown could have easily taken place after the lion turtles left, almost all of which involve fewer figurative epicycles than a theory that requires two completely unrelated societies to a) survive the apocalypse, b) move wholesale to the lion turtles backs while maintaining immovable cultural artifacts, and c) move wholesale back to their prior location and restart society as if none of that had happened

All three things are entirely possible if the Lion Turtles literally picked up those societies - those cities on their backs were probably not built out of thin air. By protecting humanity one would think that the Lion Turtles made at least a token effort to preserve existing social and cultural constructs, including historical records and such. It all makes sense if you think about it, and the only problem here is that the Lion Turtles seemed to be more passive (if not downright counter-active) with their protection.

I'm not sure how a lion turtle would go about picking up underground catacombs even if a different one somehow managed to move the city of Omashu onto its back without breaking the buildings into pieces.  

Presumably, the cities were built by the people who lived there with materials sourced from the greater world.  That's a much simpler solution than city-lifting lion turtles.


My only solid position here is this: the comic's attempt to claim that it may have happened before the Avatar came into the picture is absurd.  There are a number of different explanations for why the events shown could have easily taken place after the lion turtles left, almost all of which involve fewer figurative epicycles than a theory that requires two completely unrelated societies to a) survive the apocalypse, b) move wholesale to the lion turtles backs while maintaining immovable cultural artifacts, and c) move wholesale back to their prior location and restart society as if none of that had happened.  I don't particularly care which alternative is most ideal, though, so long as there's at least one that's less absurd than that.

Wasn't that just character dialogue? I don't think any of the characters in Zuko's little Team DaVinci Code actually know the story of Wan or the Lionturtles. Aang didn't even know Yanchen's history until fairly recently, and as far as we know, he hasn't been floating in any magic spirit saunas.

I'm not saying that the dialogue, as character dialogue from characters who don't know any better, is inconsistent with what we know.  But the comic seems to want the audience to believe that there's actual uncertainty there, and that's what I consider absurd.
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« Reply #104 on: Jan 14, 2016 05:42 am »

Presumably, the cities were built by the people who lived there with materials sourced from the greater world.

Now, this is what I call absurd. To build a city that is at least distantly similar to the one we saw, you would need a massive amount of infrastructure and extensive manufacturing capabilities. Not even mentioning resource extraction and transportation.
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« Reply #105 on: Jan 14, 2016 06:50 am »

Presumably, the cities were built by the people who lived there with materials sourced from the greater world.

Now, this is what I call absurd. To build a city that is at least distantly similar to the one we saw, you would need a massive amount of infrastructure and extensive manufacturing capabilities. Not even mentioning resource extraction and transportation.

The same goes for the metal weapons that we saw people walking around with and the giant wall around the entire city, and neither of those could possibly have been made before the lion turtles arrived (the former due to the fact that metal weapons don't last that long, the latter due to the fact that it's designed to match the shape of the lion turtle exactly).  However it happened, the people of the Fire Lion Turtle had access to significant external resources.

It makes a lot more sense for the houses to be yet another instance of surprising levels of resources than it does for a lion turtle to lift up a giant castle without it falling apart.
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« Reply #106 on: Jan 14, 2016 07:06 am »

the former due to the fact that metal weapons don't last that long

They do, actually. Properly maintained metal (especially alloys like steel) lasts for eternity.

However it happened, the people of the Fire Lion Turtle had access to significant external resources.

And how did they extract these resources? How did they process it? Steel doesn't grow on trees. To have steel, you need:
- An iron mine
- A smelter
- A coal mine
- A coal processing facility
- A smithy/forge
- The facilities (quarry, stonecutter, lumber mill, clay mine, brickmaker, etc.) to build and maintain all the above
- Roads to connect the mines with the processing facilities

It makes a lot more sense for the houses to be yet another instance of surprising levels of resources than it does for a lion turtle to lift up a giant castle without it falling apart.

I'm pretty sure that this is well within a Lion Turtle's capabilities. I mean, they already lifted cities without said cities falling apart.
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« Reply #107 on: Jan 15, 2016 07:16 am »

the former due to the fact that metal weapons don't last that long

They do, actually. Properly maintained metal (especially alloys like steel) lasts for eternity.

If you're maintaining it for display purposes, sure.  But actually using it as a weapon seems likely to cut down its expected lifespan considerably.


Quote
However it happened, the people of the Fire Lion Turtle had access to significant external resources.

And how did they extract these resources? How did they process it? Steel doesn't grow on trees. To have steel, you need:
- An iron mine
- A smelter
- A coal mine
- A coal processing facility
- A smithy/forge
- The facilities (quarry, stonecutter, lumber mill, clay mine, brickmaker, etc.) to build and maintain all the above
- Roads to connect the mines with the processing facilities

Everything but the mines and maybe the lumber could have been built on the lion turtle's back.  Maybe the lion turtle itself could provide transportation to the mining facilities.  But I really don't think we're meant to assume that all of the technology shown in Beginnings was pre-lion turtle technology.  =P


Quote
It makes a lot more sense for the houses to be yet another instance of surprising levels of resources than it does for a lion turtle to lift up a giant castle without it falling apart.

I'm pretty sure that this is well within a Lion Turtle's capabilities. I mean, they already lifted cities without said cities falling apart.

If you're talking about them being able to carry cities around on their back, the forces involved are very different.  It's possible to secure buildings against seismic motion.  It'd be pretty difficult to secure them against being held by giant clawed paws without opposable thumbs.

Anyway, I think we've gotten away from the comics again.  >_>;
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« Reply #108 on: Jan 15, 2016 08:28 am »

Maybe the lion turtle itself could provide transportation to the mining facilities.

You are now speaking against yourself. If you think that mining operations are possible, then you realistically can't have any objections against visiting the catacombs.

But I really don't think we're meant to assume that all of the technology shown in Beginnings was pre-lion turtle technology.  =P

It has to be. A single city can't sustain such an advanced civilization as Wan's. You see how much a steel ingot requires, and it is only about producing it - someone had to invent it too.

It's possible to secure buildings against seismic motion.

It is also possible to pick up whole houses and transport them from one point to another:

I don't say that the Lion Turtles used their paws - they most likely "skimmed" under the cities and then simply rose until their shells become the foundation. Actually, a "compressed" city like Omashu would be the perfect subject for this method.
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« Reply #109 on: Jan 15, 2016 11:49 am »

And how did they extract these resources? How did they process it? Steel doesn't grow on trees. To have steel, you need:

Didn't they get the steel from the same place everyone and their mother got the platinum from?

The Lion Turtles can burrow. So them carrying cities that already existed is probable and possible. Especially since people can live without running water (see Korra in Book 3.)
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Ikkin
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« Reply #110 on: Jan 16, 2016 12:22 am »

Maybe the lion turtle itself could provide transportation to the mining facilities.

You are now speaking against yourself. If you think that mining operations are possible, then you realistically can't have any objections against visiting the catacombs.

The catacombs are a single, irreplaceable location of spiritual significance that could easily be damaged beyond repair.  Mines are mines -- making a new one takes more work, but it still serves as an all-but-perfect replacement, and damage is far less likely to be irreparable anyway.  Reasonably speaking, a society would be far more comfortable leaving the latter in an area where they have limited control than the former.


Quote
But I really don't think we're meant to assume that all of the technology shown in Beginnings was pre-lion turtle technology.  =P

It has to be. A single city can't sustain such an advanced civilization as Wan's. You see how much a steel ingot requires, and it is only about producing it - someone had to invent it too.

Now who's speaking against themselves?  If it's not plausible for the city to sustain that sort of civilization, it sure as heck isn't going to maintain it for so long that no one can remember anything else.  Humanity might have been able to keep the remnants of a higher civilization going for a couple of generations, but it's heavily implied that humanity had been under the lion turtles' protection for much longer than that.

In any case, I never said that the creation of metal weapons didn't exist before the lion turtle.  I just said that it's impossible for weapons created before the lion turtle to be the only extant weapons in Wan's society.


Quote
It's possible to secure buildings against seismic motion.

It is also possible to pick up whole houses and transport them from one point to another:
http://dichvuchuyennha.pro/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/house-transport.jpg
I don't say that the Lion Turtles used their paws - they most likely "skimmed" under the cities and then simply rose until their shells become the foundation. Actually, a "compressed" city like Omashu would be the perfect subject for this method.

Houses specifically designed for it, perhaps.  (The one in the picture looks modular.)  And with technology crafted for that purpose rather than giant tunneling turtles with rounded shells.



The grade of the lion turtles' shells alone would have required housing to have been designed for the purpose of sitting on the back of a lion turtle.  And that's not even mentioning the massive seismic issues that would inevitably be caused by the tunneling.
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« Reply #111 on: Jan 16, 2016 12:48 am »

With the holidays over, I finally got around to reading Smoke and Shadow Part 2. And I thought it was okay, not the best, but not the worst either. It gets the "Not as Bad a Story as it Could've Been" award from me. For starters, I really like the concept of the Kemikurage and getting to learn more about the FN's early history (Hi Great Sage Shyu, long time no see!). Those scenes were great. But other things, such as Ukano's involvement or the love triangle kept me from completely enjoying the comic.

Back in Part 1 of Smoke and Shadows, I felt sorry for Mai's father. I got the impression that as power-hungry as the man is, at the end of the day, Ukano would still put the well-being of his wife and children before his career. Any sympathy for the character has now gone out the window. So he risked his son's safety for a half-baked scheme to get Zuko off the throne? Ukano is almost as bad as Ozai! And the fact that Mai is still defending her father is just confusing. What makes her think that her little brother would be safe from angry spirits with their father? What happened to leaving with their mother? Or how about their warden uncle and aunt with the flower shop? I assume they would give Tom-Tom a happy and safe home.

Another thing that bothered me was the love triangle. Oh boy. So Zuko and Mai have an awkward discussion about their relationship status.... in the Dragonbone Catacombs... above his ancestors' graves.... during a serious kidnapping investigation... Yeah, talk about a wrong place at the wrong time.  Roll Eyes Still, it at least looks like they're going to be moving on and the comic ends with Zuko having a nice heart-to-heart with Suki on an balcony, so as a Suzuki shipper I have no complains there!  Cheesy

And then that surprise ending with Azula... just what? How? Who?  Shocked I had a feeling the Kemikurage were really humans using smoke and mirrors, but I did NOT see that coming. I suppose at another time in the series, I could see Azula doing this. Get the people against her brother, get herself on the throne, get revenge on her mother, all sound like Azula's holiday wishlist. But the Kemikurage scheme has a lot of moving pieces and would the Fire Princess really be able pull it off, considering her metal state last we saw her? And hadn't she abandoned her plans to overthrow Zuko after the Search?  Huh  But on the other hand, lightningbending became a pretty common skill by Korra's time, so maybe this Kemikurage will turn out to be a totally different character? Oh well, I guess that answer is something to look forward to in Part 3.     
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« Reply #112 on: Jan 16, 2016 05:43 am »

Mines are mines -- making a new one takes more work

So, again, extensive mining operations, including digging new mines that requires a hellota' work not to mention manpower/infrastructure/resources requirements are more plausible than some dudes visiting a remote catacomb, say, once in a five years. Uhum  Roll Eyes...

If it's not plausible for the city to sustain that sort of civilization, it sure as heck isn't going to maintain it for so long that no one can remember anything else.  Humanity might have been able to keep the remnants of a higher civilization going for a couple of generations, but it's heavily implied that humanity had been under the lion turtles' protection for much longer than that.

I actually disagree here. I don't think that humanity was on the back of the Lion Turtles that long for the reasons you mentioned. I would give it three hundred years at best. With good resource allocation and a large enough stockpile, it is doable.

In any case, I never said that the creation of metal weapons didn't exist before the lion turtle.

This means that there must be a human civilization before the Lion Turtles. And if real life is any measure, then that civilization was (ten) thousands of years old by the time the Lion Turtles came in.

Houses specifically designed for it, perhaps.

Nope. The picture I provided is just a random, average house. Here, take a look.

But the Kemikurage scheme has a lot of moving pieces and would the Fire Princess really be able pull it off, considering her metal state last we saw her? And hadn't she abandoned her plans to overthrow Zuko after the Search?  Huh  But on the other hand, lightningbending became a pretty common skill by Korra's time, so maybe this Kemikurage will turn out to be a totally different character?  

The overview heavily hints that the Kemurikage is indeed Azula:
Quote
When children are disappearing in the Fire Nation Capital, Avatar Aang and his friends do everything in their power to save them. When Azula reappears after having vanished in the Forgetful Valley, Fire Lord Zuko locks down the capital in order to apprehend her.
« Last Edit: Jan 16, 2016 06:02 am by AtoMaki » Logged

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« Reply #113 on: Jan 16, 2016 10:38 am »

Mines are mines -- making a new one takes more work

So, again, extensive mining operations, including digging new mines that requires a hellota' work not to mention manpower/infrastructure/resources requirements are more plausible than some dudes visiting a remote catacomb, say, once in a five years. Uhum  Roll Eyes...

No, it's more plausible that they could have maintained limited mining operations over the course of hundreds of years than that they would have chosen to continue putting their one-of-a-kind historical record in a place that they had no control over.  Presumably, apart from the initial construction/materials stockpiling stage and maybe a few expansion stages, they wouldn't have needed consistent large-scale mining operations.


Quote
If it's not plausible for the city to sustain that sort of civilization, it sure as heck isn't going to maintain it for so long that no one can remember anything else.  Humanity might have been able to keep the remnants of a higher civilization going for a couple of generations, but it's heavily implied that humanity had been under the lion turtles' protection for much longer than that.

I actually disagree here. I don't think that humanity was on the back of the Lion Turtles that long for the reasons you mentioned. I would give it three hundred years at best. With good resource allocation and a large enough stockpile, it is doable.

If that were the case, one would expect the Chous to make a point of using that to justify themselves, since there's no better reason to grab all the resources for rationing than the inevitable shrinking of irreplaceable resources.  =P  Given that they said nothing of the sort, I can't imagine we were meant to see the society as unsustainable.


Quote
In any case, I never said that the creation of metal weapons didn't exist before the lion turtle.

This means that there must be a human civilization before the Lion Turtles. And if real life is any measure, then that civilization was (ten) thousands of years old by the time the Lion Turtles came in.

Personally, I like the idea that the lion turtles' protection helped humanity grow technologically at a faster rate than they would have otherwise (since that'd explain the way that technology seemed to plateau after Wan).  I'm just saying, you can't make assumptions that limit my options.  =P


Quote
Houses specifically designed for it, perhaps.

Nope. The picture I provided is just a random, average house. Here, take a look.

...that's a completely different style of moving than the one you showed before, though.  You can't just stick a normal house on the back of a truck with the edges sticking out and expect it to stay in one piece.  That's why the other link shows specially-made platforms that support the entire underside of the house on a flat plane.

I hadn't seen such things before, which is why I didn't realize you could move an entire house without building moveability into the design (or making alterations to make it moveable).  With that said, though, a non-flat surface is not going to provide the necessary support unless you specifically design for it.


Quote
But the Kemikurage scheme has a lot of moving pieces and would the Fire Princess really be able pull it off, considering her metal state last we saw her? And hadn't she abandoned her plans to overthrow Zuko after the Search?  Huh  But on the other hand, lightningbending became a pretty common skill by Korra's time, so maybe this Kemikurage will turn out to be a totally different character? 

The overview heavily hints that the Kemurikage is indeed Azula:

Quote
When children are disappearing in the Fire Nation Capital, Avatar Aang and his friends do everything in their power to save them. When Azula reappears after having vanished in the Forgetful Valley, Fire Lord Zuko locks down the capital in order to apprehend her.

I really hope that there's some kind of twist, because Azula-the-Kemurikage just doesn't seem to fit with the arc implied by the end of The Search.
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« Reply #114 on: Jan 16, 2016 11:09 am »

No, it's more plausible that they could have maintained limited mining operations over the course of hundreds of years than that they would have chosen to continue putting their one-of-a-kind historical record in a place that they had no control over.

So, still, mining in the super-dangerous Spirit Wilds is OK, but visiting a well-protected catacomb isn't. Oooookaaaayyyy...

If that were the case, one would expect the Chous to make a point of using that to justify themselves, since there's no better reason to grab all the resources for rationing than the inevitable shrinking of irreplaceable resources.

Wow, you give lots of credit to the Chous. The were not exactly the most compassionate folks, so to speak.

I'm just saying, you can't make assumptions that limit my options.  =P

Well, it wasn't an assumption. As I said many times, stuff doesn't appear out of nowhere. You need stuff to produce stuff, from base materials to processing facilities, then the knowledge and the expertise of extracting/processing/producing. If you can't meet these pre-requirements, then you won't have this stuff, and no Lion Turtle Magic can help you to get it.

And the Fire Lion Turtle City did get their stuff at one point, and that point must be before the Lion Turtles because the civilization that could get the stuff post-Lion Turtles (the proto-airnomads) wasn't even half as advanced as Wan's city.

With that said, though, a non-flat surface is not going to provide the necessary support unless you specifically design for it.

The specific design you are thinking about is called "foundation" Wink.
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« Reply #115 on: Jan 16, 2016 02:05 pm »

Quote
But the Kemikurage scheme has a lot of moving pieces and would the Fire Princess really be able pull it off, considering her metal state last we saw her? And hadn't she abandoned her plans to overthrow Zuko after the Search?  Huh  But on the other hand, lightningbending became a pretty common skill by Korra's time, so maybe this Kemikurage will turn out to be a totally different character? 

The overview heavily hints that the Kemurikage is indeed Azula:

Quote
When children are disappearing in the Fire Nation Capital, Avatar Aang and his friends do everything in their power to save them. When Azula reappears after having vanished in the Forgetful Valley, Fire Lord Zuko locks down the capital in order to apprehend her.

I really hope that there's some kind of twist, because Azula-the-Kemurikage just doesn't seem to fit with the arc implied by the end of The Search.

Assuming it really is the long-lost Fire Princess, I wonder if she's even trying to usurp the throne from Zuko this time. What if its actually revenge against Ursa that Azula is after? Similar to Zuko's realization in The Beach that he was angry, not at his family, but at himself, maybe Azula came to her own conclusion: its not her brother that she's angry with, its her mother who she truly hates. 

Maybe Azula dressing up as an Kemurikage and kidnapping Kiyi is how she plans to get even with the mother who abandoned her all those years ago. Perhaps Azula wants Ursa to know how it feels to wake up one day and discover someone she loves had disappeared without a trace. If she stirs a rebellion, causes mass panic and gets Zuko off the throne in the process, then that's just icing on the cake for the Fire Princess.
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« Reply #116 on: Jan 16, 2016 02:38 pm »

I'm still suspicious that we didn't actually see Azula, we simply saw a hand and lightningbending, hence why I'm still on the "spirit possession" or "brainwashing" bandwagons. It's just not how comic books work; if Azula was really back and behind it all, we would have had a big splash page of her unmasking to end the book on, not Zuko's assumption.

If it isn't Azula at all, and the solicits were written to be misleading, then Dark Horse took the absolute wrong message from my critiques about the main character conflicts of all these stories being a foregone conclusion. Cheesy
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« Reply #117 on: Jan 16, 2016 02:43 pm »

Quote
No, it's more plausible that they could have maintained limited mining operations over the course of hundreds of years than that they would have chosen to continue putting their one-of-a-kind historical record in a place that they had no control over.

So, still, mining in the super-dangerous Spirit Wilds is OK, but visiting a well-protected catacomb isn't. Oooookaaaayyyy...

Who said anything about mining in the Spirit Wilds?  Presumably miners would stay in the rocky areas near the lion turtle rather than venture into the forest full of angry spirits:



Heck, they could even ask the lion turtle to help them dig!


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If that were the case, one would expect the Chous to make a point of using that to justify themselves, since there's no better reason to grab all the resources for rationing than the inevitable shrinking of irreplaceable resources.

Wow, you give lots of credit to the Chous. The were not exactly the most compassionate folks, so to speak.

That's not where I'm coming from at all.

The only credit I'm giving them is expecting them to be competent despots.  Creating "justifications" for one's actions is a great way to keep the people under you from rebelling... which is something that appears to have happened in terms of people being made to believe that it wasn't possible to survive elsewhere.  If new weapons couldn't be made, it'd be silly not to make sure people knew that was the reason why no one but you had them.  =P


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I'm just saying, you can't make assumptions that limit my options.  =P

Well, it wasn't an assumption. As I said many times, stuff doesn't appear out of nowhere. You need stuff to produce stuff, from base materials to processing facilities, then the knowledge and the expertise of extracting/processing/producing. If you can't meet these pre-requirements, then you won't have this stuff, and no Lion Turtle Magic can help you to get it.

And the Fire Lion Turtle City did get their stuff at one point, and that point must be before the Lion Turtles because the civilization that could get the stuff post-Lion Turtles (the proto-airnomads) wasn't even half as advanced as Wan's city.

You seem to have lost track of the conversation.  The assumption in question was the assumption that I was insisting that the technology came into existence after the arrival of the lion turtles.

Anyway, a lion turtle sitting in the middle of a rocky area could absolutely help extract resources if it chose to do so, and the people living on it could use the relative comfort of their lives to figure out the processing part.  Maybe the nearby live volcanoes (!) could be used to help with the parts requiring high heat.  There are enough options to handwave away the issues posed by taking the show exactly at what it appears to be implying (i.e. that Wan's society is one that's been evolving technologically all along rather than the last remnants of a much greater one).

And the proto-Air Nomads weren't interested in technology, so they don't make a great comparison.


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With that said, though, a non-flat surface is not going to provide the necessary support unless you specifically design for it.

The specific design you are thinking about is called "foundation" Wink.

Except that, y'know, this?



Is entirely lacking a foundation, unless you can point out where the concrete's hidden.

Besides, a foundation that was poured to sit on flat grade obviously wouldn't work on the curved back of a lion turtle.  It makes a lot more sense for those houses to have been specifically designed to sit on the back of the lion turtle (using materials sourced externally, possibly with the lion turtle's help).


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But the Kemikurage scheme has a lot of moving pieces and would the Fire Princess really be able pull it off, considering her metal state last we saw her? And hadn't she abandoned her plans to overthrow Zuko after the Search?  Huh  But on the other hand, lightningbending became a pretty common skill by Korra's time, so maybe this Kemikurage will turn out to be a totally different character?  

The overview heavily hints that the Kemurikage is indeed Azula:

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When children are disappearing in the Fire Nation Capital, Avatar Aang and his friends do everything in their power to save them. When Azula reappears after having vanished in the Forgetful Valley, Fire Lord Zuko locks down the capital in order to apprehend her.

I really hope that there's some kind of twist, because Azula-the-Kemurikage just doesn't seem to fit with the arc implied by the end of The Search.

Assuming it really is the long-lost Fire Princess, I wonder if she's even trying to usurp the throne from Zuko this time. What if its actually revenge against Ursa that Azula is after? Similar to Zuko's realization in The Beach that he was angry, not at his family, but at himself, maybe Azula came to her own conclusion: its not her brother that she's angry with, its her mother who she truly hates.  

Maybe Azula dressing up as an Kemurikage and kidnapping Kiyi is how she plans to get even with the mother who abandoned her all those years ago. Perhaps Azula wants Ursa to know how it feels to wake up one day and discover someone she loves had disappeared without a trace. If she stirs a rebellion, causes mass panic and gets Zuko off the throne in the process, then that's just icing on the cake for the Fire Princess.

Huh, that could be an interesting option, actually!  Azula wanting to take the throne back is obvious to the point of being pedestrian, but Azula trying to show Ursa what it feels like to be abandoned by taking Kiyi?  There's potential there, not just for Azula, but for Kiyi as well.

I mean, there has been a lot of attention being payed to Kiyi's own discomfort with Ursa essentially changing into someone else, which provides a solid foundation for interaction between her and Azula.  And, maybe, the end result could be some sort of reconciliation between all of them.
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« Reply #118 on: Jan 16, 2016 02:45 pm »

I'd rather Kiyi go to the Dark Side.

Tom-Tom can fight her in a spin-off comic.
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« Reply #119 on: Jan 16, 2016 03:27 pm »

Quote
But the Kemikurage scheme has a lot of moving pieces and would the Fire Princess really be able pull it off, considering her metal state last we saw her? And hadn't she abandoned her plans to overthrow Zuko after the Search?  Huh  But on the other hand, lightningbending became a pretty common skill by Korra's time, so maybe this Kemikurage will turn out to be a totally different character?  

The overview heavily hints that the Kemurikage is indeed Azula:

Quote
When children are disappearing in the Fire Nation Capital, Avatar Aang and his friends do everything in their power to save them. When Azula reappears after having vanished in the Forgetful Valley, Fire Lord Zuko locks down the capital in order to apprehend her.

I really hope that there's some kind of twist, because Azula-the-Kemurikage just doesn't seem to fit with the arc implied by the end of The Search.

Assuming it really is the long-lost Fire Princess, I wonder if she's even trying to usurp the throne from Zuko this time. What if its actually revenge against Ursa that Azula is after? Similar to Zuko's realization in The Beach that he was angry, not at his family, but at himself, maybe Azula came to her own conclusion: its not her brother that she's angry with, its her mother who she truly hates.  

Maybe Azula dressing up as an Kemurikage and kidnapping Kiyi is how she plans to get even with the mother who abandoned her all those years ago. Perhaps Azula wants Ursa to know how it feels to wake up one day and discover someone she loves had disappeared without a trace. If she stirs a rebellion, causes mass panic and gets Zuko off the throne in the process, then that's just icing on the cake for the Fire Princess.

Huh, that could be an interesting option, actually!  Azula wanting to take the throne back is obvious to the point of being pedestrian, but Azula trying to show Ursa what it feels like to be abandoned by taking Kiyi?  There's potential there, not just for Azula, but for Kiyi as well.

I mean, there has been a lot of attention being payed to Kiyi's own discomfort with Ursa essentially changing into someone else, which provides a solid foundation for interaction between her and Azula.

I would imagine Azula has some very mixed feelings towards Kiyi, I think learning that Ursa had another daughter, one whose adored by her parents and big brother on top of that, really unnerved Azula. If she finds out about Kiyi's own resentment towards their mother, that could potentially give the sisters something in common, something to help develop their relationship. Hopefully if that's the case, Azula will end up on good terms with at least one family member by the time Smoke and Shadows is over.

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And, maybe, the end result could be some sort of reconciliation between all of them.

Maybe that could Azula's own Crossroads of Destiny, choosing between what is best for her little sister and getting her revenge against their mother. If there's not a complete reconciliation between Azula and Ursa, I could see Azula at least playing a part in helping Ursa repair her relationship with Kiyi. Maybe despite herself and her own feelings about Ursa, Azula will come to care about Kiyi and ends up making the decision to return her half-sister back to her parents, deciding that she loves Kiyi more then she hates Ursa.
« Last Edit: Jan 16, 2016 04:56 pm by Avatar Lizzy » Logged


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« Reply #120 on: Jan 16, 2016 04:03 pm »

Who said anything about mining in the Spirit Wilds?  Presumably miners would stay in the rocky areas near the lion turtle rather than venture into the forest full of angry spirits:

And they couldn't do this with the catacombs because...?

It is also worth noting that Wan's city seemingly completely lacked any sort of heavy industry. The whole city was a forest of residential/religious-looking buildings. It would be easier to say that half of them are libraries filled with historical books than saying that even a single one is a forge.

Except that, y'know, this?

http://dichvuchuyennha.pro/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/house-transport.jpg

Is entirely lacking a foundation, unless you can point out where the concrete's hidden.

Besides, a foundation that was poured to sit on flat grade obviously wouldn't work on the curved back of a lion turtle.  It makes a lot more sense for those houses to have been specifically designed to sit on the back of the lion turtle (using materials sourced externally, possibly with the lion turtle's help).

Wow, stop right there. Foundations don't work like that. You make places flat with foundations, that's their point. When those house-transporters transport a house, they raise it from its original foundation, then relocate it to a new foundation. Obviously, as foundations are made for a specific location/type of terrain and not universally.
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« Reply #121 on: Jan 16, 2016 05:53 pm »

Remember how some people thought that the Airbender attacking the White Lotus was Korra back in the Book Three teaser only to see it was someone new? We weren't shown Azula, but it's very likely it could be someone disguising themselves as her.
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« Reply #122 on: Jan 16, 2016 08:25 pm »

Who said anything about mining in the Spirit Wilds?  Presumably miners would stay in the rocky areas near the lion turtle rather than venture into the forest full of angry spirits:

And they couldn't do this with the catacombs because...?

Because it's a single, unique location that would have to survive the entirety of the time humanity was on the lion turtles rather than a site designed to be used only for as long as it was useful?  And it also has clear spiritual connections that would make it more likely for people to run into spirits there than in a mine that's likely lacking in such spiritual connections?

Oh, and, there's one other problem with the catacombs/bending being a pre-lion turtle thing: if humanity had already started learning from the dragons and the sky bison before the lion turtles showed up, why wouldn't they have been around on the fire and air lion turtles we saw?  And why would the dragon we did see be hanging out with the spirits instead of its fellow firebenders?  That's yet another gap in the continuity of human civilization that would need to be filled in if the lion turtles showed up in the middle of the present civilizations instead of beforehand.


Quote
It is also worth noting that Wan's city seemingly completely lacked any sort of heavy industry. The whole city was a forest of residential/religious-looking buildings. It would be easier to say that half of them are libraries filled with historical books than saying that even a single one is a forge.

Come on.  We both know that it looks the way it does for reasons that have far more to do with visual design than with the actual use of each individual building.  We don't see any forges in Toz's village (or the village he pillaged from) either, but we know he had to have gotten his weapons from somewhere.

With that said, I don't think it would be too unbelievable for this sort of stuff to be located sometimes in this compound:



I mean, obviously, if the Chous have a monopoly on weapons, they'd want them manufactured where they could control them, so that's the most logical place for a forge to be located anyway.


Quote
Except that, y'know, this?

http://dichvuchuyennha.pro/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/house-transport.jpg

Is entirely lacking a foundation, unless you can point out where the concrete's hidden.

Besides, a foundation that was poured to sit on flat grade obviously wouldn't work on the curved back of a lion turtle.  It makes a lot more sense for those houses to have been specifically designed to sit on the back of the lion turtle (using materials sourced externally, possibly with the lion turtle's help).

Wow, stop right there. Foundations don't work like that. You make places flat with foundations, that's their point. When those house-transporters transport a house, they raise it from its original foundation, then relocate it to a new foundation. Obviously, as foundations are made for a specific location/type of terrain and not universally.

Well, that's your problem, because you were the one who said that the foundation is the part of the design made to keep a building together when it's being moved:

Quote
Quote
With that said, though, a non-flat surface is not going to provide the necessary support [implied: to move a house] unless you specifically design for it.

The specific design you are thinking about is called "foundation" Wink.

If you can't move a building and its foundation together, there's no plausible way for a lion turtle to get a house on its back without breaking it.
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« Reply #123 on: Jan 17, 2016 05:59 am »

Because it's a single, unique location that would have to survive the entirety of the time humanity was on the lion turtles rather than a site designed to be used only for as long as it was useful?  And it also has clear spiritual connections that would make it more likely for people to run into spirits there than in a mine that's likely lacking in such spiritual connections?

A mine is also a single, unique location. The iron vein won't pop up wherever you want, I can tell you that. Then, the sheer destruction a mining operation (even a limited one) would bring all the spirits to the mine, and they wouldn't be exactly in a cooperative mood either (this would be the very same scenario as with Wan's friends). On the other hand, priests - probably very spiritual people themselves - could move safely among the spirits who would be tame against a positive spiritual object (proto-airbender village scenario all-over).

Then, even if you have the mines, what about the others? Cotton for the clothing? Lumber - and massive amounts of lumber - for... pretty much everything (we do know that spirits do not tolerate woodcutting at all)? Rare metals like gold (the Chous' headpiece is definitely made of gold)?

Oh, and, there's one other problem with the catacombs/bending being a pre-lion turtle thing: if humanity had already started learning from the dragons and the sky bison before the lion turtles showed up, why wouldn't they have been around on the fire and air lion turtles we saw?  And why would the dragon we did see be hanging out with the spirits instead of its fellow firebenders?  That's yet another gap in the continuity of human civilization that would need to be filled in if the lion turtles showed up in the middle of the present civilizations instead of beforehand.

Two explanations:
- Taming the bending animals is not a pre-Lion Turtles thing. Obviously, taming the animal that taught you bending can be ethically problematic. Similarly how the Sun Warriors didn't ride their two dragons either.
- There were simply no place and resources to keep the tamed animals on the Lion Turtles. So they were abandoned during the evacuation and eventually regressed to a feral state. Similarly how the badgermoles of Omashu were living in the Secret Tunnel and not the city.

Come on.  We both know that it looks the way it does for reasons that have far more to do with visual design than with the actual use of each individual building.

Nah. M&B has a higher standard for detail. If they want industry somewhere, then they show it.

We don't see any forges in Toz's village (or the village he pillaged from) either, but we know he had to have gotten his weapons from somewhere.

The answer here is easy: trade. An option that is obviously non-existent in the Fire Lion Turtle City.

If you can't move a building and its foundation together, there's no plausible way for a lion turtle to get a house on its back without breaking it.

Come on Ikkin, you are now just being stubborn. The procedure is:
- Humans build foundation on the Lion Turtle.
- They lift the building from its original foundation with the help of the Lion Turtle (its paw can be a very good crane).
- They place the building on the new foundation. This is how those house transporters do it too.
Alternatively:
- Lion Turtle digs under the city.
- Slowly rises.
- As the Lion Turtle emerges, the humans refit the foundations of their buildings to fit the Lion Turtle's shell.
Or:
- Lion Turtle digs under the city on a hill.
- It picks up the whole hill with buildings and everything.
- Profit!
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« Reply #124 on: Jan 17, 2016 09:12 am »

Because it's a single, unique location that would have to survive the entirety of the time humanity was on the lion turtles rather than a site designed to be used only for as long as it was useful?  And it also has clear spiritual connections that would make it more likely for people to run into spirits there than in a mine that's likely lacking in such spiritual connections?

A mine is also a single, unique location. The iron vein won't pop up wherever you want, I can tell you that. Then, the sheer destruction a mining operation (even a limited one) would bring all the spirits to the mine, and they wouldn't be exactly in a cooperative mood either (this would be the very same scenario as with Wan's friends). On the other hand, priests - probably very spiritual people themselves - could move safely among the spirits who would be tame against a positive spiritual object (proto-airbender village scenario all-over).

I'm not saying it's not a big problem to lose a mine, but it's not a complete showstopper the way losing the Catacombs (which, by your estimation, would have to be there for at least three hundred years without being lost) would be.  Plus, I was more thinking of losing an entrance and having to start a new one to access the same vein, since it seems pretty obvious that they'd have to stick close to the lion turtle.



Quote
Then, even if you have the mines, what about the others? Cotton for the clothing? Lumber - and massive amounts of lumber - for... pretty much everything (we do know that spirits do not tolerate woodcutting at all)? Rare metals like gold (the Chous' headpiece is definitely made of gold)?

Okay, now your "no means to make the stuff they were shown having" thing is getting entirely absurd.  Clothing could not possibly exist in the form it did if they didn't have access to cotton for hundreds of years.  The old clothing would simply fall to shreds by that point and they'd have to revert to furs.

So there is absolutely no way that they could not have the ability to make clothing, which means that there are obviously forms of industry going on that create "plot holes" anyway, which means that the same might as well apply to the weapons and the lumber and the gold.

Societies can't survive for hundreds of years without access to any of the resources they use on a daily basis.  Just bite the figurative bullet and accept that the fire lion turtle city has industry already.


Quote
Oh, and, there's one other problem with the catacombs/bending being a pre-lion turtle thing: if humanity had already started learning from the dragons and the sky bison before the lion turtles showed up, why wouldn't they have been around on the fire and air lion turtles we saw?  And why would the dragon we did see be hanging out with the spirits instead of its fellow firebenders?  That's yet another gap in the continuity of human civilization that would need to be filled in if the lion turtles showed up in the middle of the present civilizations instead of beforehand.

Two explanations:
- Taming the bending animals is not a pre-Lion Turtles thing. Obviously, taming the animal that taught you bending can be ethically problematic. Similarly how the Sun Warriors didn't ride their two dragons either.
- There were simply no place and resources to keep the tamed animals on the Lion Turtles. So they were abandoned during the evacuation and eventually regressed to a feral state. Similarly how the badgermoles of Omashu were living in the Secret Tunnel and not the city.

So we add yet another instance of things starting before the lion turtle, getting put on pause, and then popping up afterwards as if none of it had ever happened?  Convolutions upon convolutions.  =/

(Oh, and, apart from the cities themselves and the relationships with the bending animals, you've also got the rebirth of industry itself as a problem, since you're insisting that they weren't able to actually manufacture anything for hundreds of years.  The knowledge for how to make that stuff would realistically be lost over that period of time, yet there were clearly more weapons after humans left the lion turtle than there were while they were still living there.)


Quote
Come on.  We both know that it looks the way it does for reasons that have far more to do with visual design than with the actual use of each individual building.

Nah. M&B has a higher standard for detail. If they want industry somewhere, then they show it.

Where's the industry in this wide shot of the Fire Nation capitol?



Industry is shown when it's relevant.  But it's not relevant in a super-stylized ink painting of a city on the back of a lion turtle, and showing it would mean breaking from the style.


Quote
We don't see any forges in Toz's village (or the village he pillaged from) either, but we know he had to have gotten his weapons from somewhere.

The answer here is easy: trade. An option that is obviously non-existent in the Fire Lion Turtle City.

Which is why I said that the villages we were shown didn't seem capable of making metal weapons either.


Quote
If you can't move a building and its foundation together, there's no plausible way for a lion turtle to get a house on its back without breaking it.

Come on Ikkin, you are now just being stubborn. The procedure is:
- Humans build foundation on the Lion Turtle.
- They lift the building from its original foundation with the help of the Lion Turtle (its paw can be a very good crane).
- They place the building on the new foundation. This is how those house transporters do it too.

And the house breaks apart when being moved, because lion turtle paws are clearly not designed to act as cranes and no part of the house was designed to be picked up.


Quote
Alternatively:
- Lion Turtle digs under the city.
- Slowly rises.
- As the Lion Turtle emerges, the humans refit the foundations of their buildings to fit the Lion Turtle's shell.

And the house starts breaking apart due to the seismic forces and crumbles due to the non-flat foundation before the foundation can be fixed.


Quote
Or:
- Lion Turtle digs under the city on a hill.
- It picks up the whole hill with buildings and everything.
- Profit!

And the house starts breaking apart due to the seismic forces and crumbles due to the non-flat foundation before the foundation can be fixed.

The idea of lion turtles picking up houses is far, far, far more absurd than the idea that the people on Wan's lion turtle had the industries necessary to build them themselves.

As is the idea of humanity putting things on pause in at least four separate realms (city identity, historical record keeping, relationship with animal masters, existence of industry) and then picking up right where they left off.

As is the idea that civilization could continue almost seamlessly after losing the ability to make all of the resources they use in everyday life (stone and wood for houses, steel for weapons, cotton for cloth, wood or coal for heat and cooking, etc.).

It's much simpler and more consistent to think that bending and bending-related societies started existing after the lion turtles arrived.  Otherwise, you have to explain away so many absurdities that it starts getting silly.
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