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Author Topic: [DH Comics #11] Smoke and Shadow, Part 2  (Read 12563 times)
Icy_Ashford
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« on: Aug 16, 2015 08:31 pm »

This thread will be unlocked as soon as the book is officially released.



Comic Book Resources announced that Smoke and Shadow, Part 2 will be released on December 29, 2015. You can pre-order the book on Amazon.

Smoke and Shadow is written by writer/artist/creator Gene Luen Yang and illustrated by the creative team GuriHiru (illustrator Sasaki, Colorist Kawano).

This thread is for opinions & discussion about the story. A professional reviews thread will be set up in due time. For questions on release dates and buying the books, see A:TLA Graphic Novels in the Marketplace. For speculation of Smoke and Shadow, Part 3 and other future comics, please see Smoke and Shadow - Parts 1, 2, and 3 speculation thread and Future Avatar Comics respectively.
« Last Edit: Dec 16, 2015 07:13 pm by Icy_Ashford » Logged



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« Reply #1 on: Dec 16, 2015 07:18 pm »

As usual, post only if you've read the comic. All forum rules apply.
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 16, 2015 09:11 pm »

So I guess Azula is female Obito.
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« Reply #3 on: Dec 18, 2015 09:21 pm »

So I got my copy today and read it. It's on par with the first one. If you liked part one, you'll probably like part two. Honestly, though, this trilogy just isn't working for me. I usually defend the comics but I'm just finding it hard to be invested in Smoke and Shadow. This is basically a trilogy about supporting characters with Zuko and Aang being around as well. And personally, I don't care about the supporting characters as much. The lack of the gaang is a downer for me. I realize that's a personal issue I have and not an objective problem with the trilogy. Anyway, it's still a decent enough read. There were good things:

It was cool seeing Shyu again, even though it was just a cameo. I've always wondered what happened to him after the winter solstice. Now I know.

It was also kinda funny that after Kei Lo calls Mai 'babe', Aang gives a side glance to Zuko questioning it and Zuko just says, "you're not really one to talk Aang". As a Kataang fan, I found it funny.

I know some people were dissatisfied with the history of the FN. I thought it was alright. It could have been presented in a more interesting way but it worked. Although, I never really had any headcanons about it myself so I really would have been fine with anything. It doesn't go against pre-established lore.  Although I do wish the book was more specific on what the actual time period of it was.

It was cool seeing Aang and Mai interact a little since we never got that in the show.

The love triangle wasn't totally awful. It was better then LoK's at least so I have to give Gene credit for that.

Things that didn't work:

Ukano's 'Safe Nation Society". First off, it's a stupid name. I get what his plan was here, but it was a little sloppy.

Towards the end of the book, Mai and Aang get a little annoyed at how 'cold' Zuko was when he basically fired the Constable for going against his orders. That was dumb. I mean, Zuko's the Fire Lord. It's in his right to do that and the Constable directly went against his wished. What were Aang and Mai expecting him to do. It was a little odd and while Aang's reaction was mild, Mai's reaction seemed way out of left field (you can tell she's comparing him to Ozai).

The Azula reveal. I've made it no secret that I don't really want her to be redeemed but having her return as a straight up villain like this goes against what we saw at the end of the Search. The end of the Search and the start of S&S took place a few weeks apart (yes there was a one month time jump between parts 1 and 2 but the fake Kemurakage spoke to Ukano at the start of part 1). Azula had to have some time to get this plan ready. Therefore, the implication is that Azula ran off at the end of the Search and then immediately conspired to take down Zuko. As it is now, it just doesn't fit. Hopefully part 3 somehow fixes this.

Anyway, like I said, I really liked the other trilogies...but this one isn't working for me to much. At this point I'm not really excited for part 3 as much as I am excited for this trilogy to be over so we can move onto the next one where at the very least, the core of Team Avatar will most definitely be involved (Aang, Katara, and Sokka).

Again though, if you like part 1 or are interested in all the side characters more then I am, you'll probably still like it.
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« Reply #4 on: Dec 18, 2015 09:43 pm »

Dude, details man, give us details about the Fire Nation's ancient history. Oops, I missed that line Icy posted above. Sorry!
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 24, 2015 08:32 am »

So I guess Azula is female Obito.

Obito was THE COOLEST GUY who manhandled a god and saved another god from a greater god.

Azula has done nothing to be compared to the great lord Swagbito !

Honestly, Azula being a straight-up villain... well, works with Obito. But we only have part 3 to redeem her so she's either going to get thrown into a fire pit by Zuko, AKA, best option, or she'll has a 3 page talk with Zuko and she'll be a good two shoes again è
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 24, 2015 12:35 pm »

So I guess Azula is female Obito.

Obito was THE COOLEST GUY who manhandled a god and saved another god from a greater god.

Azula has done nothing to be compared to the great lord Swagbito !

Honestly, Azula being a straight-up villain... well, works with Obito. But we only have part 3 to redeem her so she's either going to get thrown into a fire pit by Zuko, AKA, best option, or she'll has a 3 page talk with Zuko and she'll be a good two shoes again è
obito didn't change until he fell victim to the all powerful Naruto talk no jutsu so i see the same thing happening with azula and zuko
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 29, 2015 01:44 am »

I'm still waiting for Zuko to use lightning already.

Anyway, I read it. It was quite underwhelming, but then again it's only the second act. It's just so weird seeing the Gaang all split up this early on. Even though Toph and Katara aren't my favorites, I'm hoping they appear in part 3 as well.
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 29, 2015 09:37 pm »

Well we have to actually temper our expectations here a little bit.  We never saw her face and therefor we have to assume that she either is Azula... or she isn't.  All we know is that the hooded woman can shoot lightning... (and is immune to chi blocking?  It was really unclear) and that Zuko took a wild stabbing guess that it was Azula and could easily be wrong.  We'll have to wait for part three for confirmation on this unfortunately.

Any explanation as to why the Kyoshi warriors are STILL not defending Kyoshi Island anymore?  Don't get me wrong, I'll always take more Suki over less... but didn't they leave the fire nation at the end of part 1?
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 30, 2015 04:24 am »

Any explanation as to why the Kyoshi warriors are STILL not defending Kyoshi Island anymore?  Don't get me wrong, I'll always take more Suki over less... but didn't they leave the fire nation at the end of part 1?

The Kyoshi Warriors in the Fire Nation are just one part (the "individuality warriors") of the cadre. The other part (the "clone warriors") is probably still guarding Kyoshi Island. Not to mention that the KWs have got some new recruits from the Fire Nation during the Sukka free comic.
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 30, 2015 11:49 am »

Well the ending was kind of a shocker, no it wasn't, but I will get on that later.

I thought the whole curfew was a reasonable suggestion, not saying I agree with it, but I can see it from a let's keep a curfew while we have this investigation, more reasonable than Tarloq curfew idea, at least it would be a curfew on everybody.

That investigator I still don't trust him, but you notice when his son got kidnapped, there was only two Kemurikage here, giving what we find out about Mai's dad, wouldn't put it past him to have his kidnap to throw suspicion off him. And Zuko did say one of them that called him an impostor in part 1 was male voice that sounded familiar.

It is obvious that Zuko and Mai is end game, it is obvious thank the lord. And listen Mai, I am not saying you are not worried about your brother, but when she said with Tom Tom she feels empty, the truth is she feels just as much or even more so empty without Zuko, so she is using Tom Tom as an excuse to deny her feelings about Zuko.

I loved the Aang and Mai interaction, it was very funny. Granted of all the characters I wanted to see Mai interact with, Toph and Sokka are still top of the list.

I wish they would do more with Ursa's plot line, looks like no Ursa / Ozai confrontation in this story.

Mai's dad I want to feel sympathy, but at the same time you liar, you where in on all those kidnappings, than again he is nice to the kidnapped children, are we suppose to hate the guy or not. At this point, we might have another Hiroshi, the only way to redeem him is to die for his family.

The end reveal that one of the Kemurikage was Azula, well that is the big reveal. My question is who are other two? I hope that is not ignored and they are just cast away as "hired henchmen", I remember a Scooby Doo episode that ended that way. I don't think Azula in her current state is the master mind, either Ozai is pulling the strings here, or one of the other two is the master mind.  I do want to know Azula's motivation, it just to get Zuko off the throne, or does she truly believe that her brother is a weak Fire Lord, maybe because Zuko didn't finish her off in "The Search" when he had the chance. So many interesting possibilities.
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 30, 2015 01:25 pm »

What if instead of Azula, it's one of her new lackeys? Somehow, she eventually taught her how to use lighting the way she does. We weren't shown their face for a reason.
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 31, 2015 06:30 am »

Okay, I've just read the comic. It was fairly 'meh' but I guess it is the curse of these new ATLA comics - the second parts are always underwhelming.

Anyway, the big thing that drags down this comic in my opinion is Ukano and his Big Plan. The latter runs entirely on Plot, and effectively serves as a filler because something has to happen in this book. It felt really unnecessary and both the idea and the execution were rather messy. On the positive side, the not!Kemurikage shapes up pretty well. So they are all-women, huh? Interesting!

Also, the compulsory Suzuki tease... I LOL'd.

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« Reply #13 on: Dec 31, 2015 10:27 am »

Why is Shyu still alive? Is Ozai really that soft? I would've expected him to have been executed for not only betraying his country, but for aiding the Avatar.
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« Reply #14 on: Dec 31, 2015 10:33 am »

I'm surprised as well. I guess the Avatar world is really tight-fisted when it comes to applying the death penalty.
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 31, 2015 10:41 am »

There is one thing that Aang brought up that made sense, where exactly was the Avatar when all of this was happening in the past? It couldn't have been before the time of the Avatar as Mai suggested, because humans weren't living on the lion turtles at the time. Also what happened to the Avatar when the lion turtles were being hunted into extinction? Though it's possible for that to be retconned. I remember that it was stated in the past that the Fire Nation used to be under the authority of the Fire Sages, but then one of the Fire Sages had seized power and was referred to as the Fire Lord thereafter.
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 31, 2015 10:54 am »

I'm surprised as well. I guess the Avatar world is really tight-fisted when it comes to applying the death penalty.

I'm not surprised.  He didn't even bother to execute Iroh when he had the chance. The only person he ever wants to kill is Zuko.

There is one thing that Aang brought up that made sense, where exactly was the Avatar when all of this was happening in the past? It couldn't have been before the time of the Avatar as Mai suggested, because humans weren't living on the lion turtles at the time. Also what happened to the Avatar when the lion turtles were being hunted into extinction? Though it's possible for that to be retconned. I remember that it was stated in the past that the Fire Nation used to be under the authority of the Fire Sages, but then one of the Fire Sages had seized power and was referred to as the Fire Lord thereafter.

That information is from The Lost Scrolls series. Mike once said that series was canon (that he helped write for it).

As the for absence of the Avatars, maybe some of them were just lazy. I'm sure there were a few Avatars who sucked at their job.
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 2015 10:58 am by plushu » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: Dec 31, 2015 11:58 am »

There is one thing that Aang brought up that made sense, where exactly was the Avatar when all of this was happening in the past? It couldn't have been before the time of the Avatar as Mai suggested, because humans weren't living on the lion turtles at the time.

There were human civilizations before the Lion Turtle cities. Those cities had to get their tech somewhere. Steel weapons don't grow on trees, after all.
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 31, 2015 12:00 pm »

As the for absence of the Avatars, maybe some of them were just lazy. I'm sure there were a few Avatars who sucked at their job.

A "lazy" Avatar isn't necessary if we set the creation of the Fire Nation back far enough -- it'd be plausible, for instance, for there to be a very long gap between Wan's death and the second Avatar learning about and acting out their role as Avatar.  Even after that, it could have taken a significant amount of time for groups intended to discover and inform the Avatar to grow up, leading to longer gaps between Avatars (possibly even entire lifetime gaps, if some Avatars never found out who they were).

And, for all we know, the first Fire Lord could have been an Avatar, given that we're told absolutely nothing of anyone's ability to bend.


There is one thing that Aang brought up that made sense, where exactly was the Avatar when all of this was happening in the past? It couldn't have been before the time of the Avatar as Mai suggested, because humans weren't living on the lion turtles at the time.

There were human civilizations before the Lion Turtle cities. Those cities had to get their tech somewhere. Steel weapons don't grow on trees, after all.

The institution of the Fire Lord can't be pre-Lion Turtle, though, because the Chou family didn't seem to have that title even though they ran the Fire Lion Turtle city.
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 31, 2015 02:43 pm »

So, my copy arrived today from Amazon. I have to agree that the history of the Fire Nation isn't bad, it's exactly the stuff we've had in the lore for a while now, and there's all kinds of reasons why the Avatar might not have been involved. Actually, it was a very focused tale on this one warlord and the stuff he did, so for all we know the Avatar was actively involved in some way in uniting all the various islands and supporting the Fire Lord.

Keep in mind, the existing lore says that the original Fire Lord was once the leader of the Fire Sages, so there's a strong possibility that the Avatar supported his ascension.


As for the rest of the story, though, AtoMaki says it best:

Anyway, the big thing that drags down this comic in my opinion is Ukano and his Big Plan. The latter runs entirely on Plot, and effectively serves as a filler because something has to happen in this book. It felt really unnecessary and both the idea and the execution were rather messy.

It's all heavy-handed contrivance. Why does Mai believe that her father could have somehow kept Tom-Tom safe from evil spirits? Because plot. Why does Zuko himself have to be the one to go into the Catacombs to find out the secret history that any lockpick could have uncovered while he stayed to actually rule his nation? Because plot. Why do the real Spirits merely warn Aang that they're being impersonated by humans, rather than appearing to take vengeance on the kidnappers directly? Because plot. Why does an inspector not wonder why his child was targeted mere hours after Ukano warned him, when Tom-Tom had been the only previous kidnapping? Because plot. Why do the all the locked doors in the Catacombs not use Firebending like all the other doors, but rather pickable locks? Because Love Triangle plot.

Speaking of which, the Maiko stuff is a walking worst-case-scenario. I disliked that all the fault is being shoved onto Mai, that she still loves Zuko and wants to be with him but she can't handle being hurt, as if she just needs to learn that hurt is an essential part of love. No. An essential part of love is trust and communication and respect and Zuko showed none of that for her, but Zuko is Gene Yang's favorite character so of course Zuko can't be the one to change and learn a lesson, it's all that shrew Mai's fault.

This is The Promise-level writing: contrivance, Zuko glorification, romantic melodrama, and child-sized politics.
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« Reply #20 on: Dec 31, 2015 02:53 pm »

I'm kind of glad that the history of the Fire Nation is in similar to how I imagined it to be. I wouldn't mind if we got a spaghetti-western type story set in that era. Seriously, it could work (I guess I'll have to write it).
Though, I'm sad, but not surprised, that the comic continues to display the same story-telling failures as the ones before it did.
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 2015 03:01 pm by Colonel_Brian » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: Dec 31, 2015 06:23 pm »

So, my copy arrived today from Amazon. I have to agree that the history of the Fire Nation isn't bad, it's exactly the stuff we've had in the lore for a while now, and there's all kinds of reasons why the Avatar might not have been involved. Actually, it was a very focused tale on this one warlord and the stuff he did, so for all we know the Avatar was actively involved in some way in uniting all the various islands and supporting the Fire Lord.

Keep in mind, the existing lore says that the original Fire Lord was once the leader of the Fire Sages, so there's a strong possibility that the Avatar supported his ascension...

I'm kind of glad that the history of the Fire Nation is in similar to how I imagined it to be. I wouldn't mind if we got a spaghetti-western type story set in that era. Seriously, it could work (I guess I'll have to write it).
Though, I'm sad, but not surprised, that the comic continues to display the same story-telling failures as the ones before it did.

Even if warlords and strife giving way to peace and prosperity makes sense, and why Ozai wouldn't want people knowing the political and peace part of the Fire Nation's past, there's one part of the origin that still doesn't sit right with me: how conveniently it involves kidnappings. Just for that, I still don't understand how the backstory is even just okay, for the simple fact that it's engineered and tailor-made to fit in perfectly with the current plot.

Wondering if the Kemikurage are human or spirit - we get the answer that the spirits exist, and were tied to kidnappings (something that the comics, from large to small, have made a big deal - seemingly just out of inspiration that Tom Tom wandered off in Book 2 Earth "Return to Omashu" and they thought he was kidnapped), but aren't active in the current kidnappings, but were a big deal thousands of years ago. Need to tie the past to the present? Link something from the current plotline and something from the past together, making the past have that very thing you're using to link it to the present be a factor back then(kidnappings). The exact same thing - not even a shared theme, an exact clone. Something that hasn't been omnipresent in the TV series as a whole.

The link to the past could have been something about the royal lineage before Sozin, or even Mai's family's history, or Kemikurage that have some association other than with kidnappings of children. Nope - construct the story such that it links the past to kidnapping of children, the most convenient thing to link it to, or the most plot relevant thing to link it to. The thing already present in the comic series' plotline, something that's been mentioned more in the comics than the show (Mai's father taking Tom Tom to his New Ozai Society meeting and Mai rescuing him in an independent ish comic).

Given the importance of child kidnappings in this particular comic series, part of the Fire Nation's origin depending on kidnappings to me comes across as extremely artificial. As though it was done just to tie the current storyline into something older than the current storyline. If you took away Smoke and Shadow, the context of kidnappings, and told this Fire Nation origin story, the part about warlords and conflict would fit and make sense, but the things about kidnapping would seem out of place. Oddly specific and detailed. Besides a dictatorship or warlord not being the Fire Nation's default setting, as would be most convenient for Sozin and his likeminded successors, the kidnapping portion of the story would seem unconnected to any of the struggles or things we'd heard of in the Fire Nation. All because of this insertion of the importance of kidnappings to the Fire Nation's origins.

As Loopy was saying of the rest, it seems a contrivance. Contrivance that the current plot deals with children being kidnapped, and that part of the fire nation's founding involved children being kidnapped.
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 2015 06:47 pm by Freedom153 » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: Dec 31, 2015 06:48 pm »

I have nothing to say about the kidnapping stuff. I just commented that the Fire Nation's feudal past is similar to how I imagined it, with warlords fighting each other for control of villages and what not. Though I always assumed that the Fire Lord was originally the baddest warlord and not some figure who rose up against them.
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 2015 07:30 pm by Colonel_Brian » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 31, 2015 07:28 pm »

Well, my impression wasn't that the Fire Nation's origin is based on any kidnappings. One warloard used kidnappings to shore up his rule, and some spirits (maybe- I wondered if the original Kemikurage weren't also people in masks, and the 'spirit' that appeared to Aang was simply a ghost) struck back against him with retaliatory kidnappings. And then, once that was all completed, the Fire Lord rolled around and absorbed this Warlord just like all the others.

It's really more of a trivia point in Fire Nation history. "And this warlord was weakened by what sages say were spirit troubles and modern historians say was probably a secret rebel society, while that warlord saw more advantages in promoting trade than exerting power through conquest and so the Fire Lord simply bought out all the trading partners..."
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« Reply #24 on: Dec 31, 2015 08:39 pm »

I think the biggest question is why are there fire activated locks in the FIRE Nation. With the amount of firebenders concentrated in their home country, you'd think they'd use other means...
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