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Author Topic: Why didn't the Fire Nation use Proxies/Divide and Conquer Methods?  (Read 2294 times)
Zyrax
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« on: Apr 30, 2015 04:09 am »

It makes them look stupid for them to spend 100 years using Violent methods only.
Almost every Empire Used Proxies/Puppets/Bribery. The Europeans made a lot of deals with The Leaders Of African/Native American tribes, Even The Mongols did it despite being known For being Violent.
Wouldn't it be More effective to Bribe some powerfull Earth/Water Bender to do a coup d'etat and install a Pro-Fire Nation Goverment?
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colle
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 30, 2015 05:57 am »

Well, Azula did use Long Fang and the Dai Li.
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Yougo
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 30, 2015 04:38 pm »

Well, it all stems from Sozin's idea that Fire Nation- well, everything, is the best thing since sliced bread and that the rest of those barbarians should be given the gift of Fire Nation awesomeness.
Any resistance is perceived as ingratitude. Any dialogue is acknowledging the other's intelligence.

Mind you, this mindset is primarily prevalent in higher circles, that don't actually get out of the Fire Nation capital much. All the people that actually get to meet non-firenation people are soldiers, and behind armor, shields and at least an arms length of birebending. It would take a while before anyone actually gets to meet non-Fire Nation people and dab into non-Fire Nation culture.

Those who openly start to second guess the campaign get to be in the first wave during next battle. You learn to shut up real quick then.

We see in our own world how strangely isolated and indoctrinated a nation and its people can become and how far such a nation's power reaches into making those people commit horrible things in the mindset of doing something good.

As the avatar verse was quite stagnant around Aang's time, I can imagine them dragging that war out as well.
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ByStorm
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 30, 2015 11:05 pm »

 I never got why they didn't just assimilate the Air Nomads and use loyalist Airbenders against the Avatar. Or with the other nations.

It seems stupid to just kill every Airbender when you got loyalists like that traitor willing to sell out their Temples to the Fire Nation. When there's no Avatar, just make sure none of them can bend any more than one element, which should be insanely easy give the tiny population of the Air Nomads, which might've been depleted by certain rebel's death like Gyatso. I'm taking a chapter from Spanish colonial history in Mexico and other overseas territories, instead of the Anglo-centric genocide method. Even the Japanese which the Fire Nation is based off of began also assimilated rather than kill off a potential tax base/ allies.

We've seen how deadly Airbenders are. They could easily be deployed as Black Ops to wipe out the other tow nations. Just fake their "deaths" and wait for the previous generation who worked with the originals to become too old to bend effectively or die.  Indoctrinate them as Fire Nation citizens  and appoint the traitor as its religious leader to deploy the propaganda. So even if the Avatar were to be born in the Air Nomads, he would be willing to kill for the Fire Lord or sacrifice his own mortal life for the crown in prison, depending on the level of indoctrination.

If Aang did live, he'd probably either be chained up until he became old or died, whatever happened sooner. Unless Aang chose the Fire Nation if he got to be with monk Gyatso. The Fire Nation could easily use that as motivation for him to be evil. Ten years after, he could be a formidable ally against the rebels, turning against his best friend in Bumi who'd perhaps be his slave.

Fire Nation citizens seeing the Avatar joining their side will have a spiritual and political upper hand  over the other three nations until at least  either Aang defects and dies, or he dies from old age. Then, wherever the next Avatar is born, they'll have to be dealt with. But in this hypothesis, I place the Southern Water Tribe under FN control, so Korra's equivalent will too be raised in indoctrination, unless she was born Foggy Swamp or in the North. Aang dies 13 years before Sozin's Comet, maybe from suicide out of  regret of shedding his father figure's principles or natural causes [most probably] , but either way. Korra would probably be apt as a war Avatar more than Aang. If she was brainwashed, they'd easily make her Fire Nation by tapping her aggression, but if born out of their grasp, then its basically the events of ATLA , but with more urgency and romantic tension.

But I believe the Fire Nation would've been stronger militarily if they indoctrinated the Airbenders and weeded any possible Avatars to be tested.

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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2015 01:08 pm »

I think the Fire Nation was too meglomanically nationalist to rely extensively on puppets and bribes. The closest thing was Azula teaming up with Long Feng to overthrow the Earth King, but that was very temporary and Azula played him to the beat.
One would think it would make sense for the Fire Nation to attempt peace through submission, but Sozin, Azulon, and Ozai thought people would see the Fire Nation's greatness by being violently conquered.
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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2015 03:19 pm »

Azula is an interesting point to make. She'd be the only example of FN cooperating with/using corrupt enemy politicians to achieve their goals. And directly because of that, she is the first one to bring down the walls of ba sing se.

There are cases like the Mechanist being pressured into building FN war machines but I don't know how significant he is. Yes he made a balloon, but the FN turned that balloon into a fleet of war blimps all on their own. And it was more bullying than it was cooperation. The only thing the mechanist got out of that deal was to keep his head on his neck.
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Loopy
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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2015 03:26 pm »

Corrupting the Air Nomads' eons-old Pacifistic society seems like it would be too much effort to be worth it. Besides, we all know that Sozin's desire to kill Aang was just more sublimation of his emotional issues with Roku. Grin

And once you've committed genocide against one nation, I don't think you have any choice but outright world war.
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KatrinaKadabra
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 12, 2015 08:23 pm »

I can see why the Fire Nation didn't see any need for anything other than a direct attack on the Air Nation. No military, no way to defend themselves.

And yeah, I agree with Loopy -- can't imagine the Water Tribes or the Earth Kingdom making any deals with them after that.

Which means it was probably a pretty stupid move to open the war with attacking the Air Nomads, but I get the impression Sozin thought the Fire Nation would be ruling everything shortly afterwards, not still engaged in war 100 years later.
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 14, 2015 01:06 am »

^i still think sozin went to the air nomads with the simple intention to fetch the new avatar and be done with them afterwards. the AN didn't pose a threat, neither did they have much to add to the greatness that is Firenation culture and prosperity. the best way to fit the AN into a plan of world domination is to ignore them. let them fly. just have them know should they ever touch down, it will be on Fire Nation soil

only when the AN couldn't or wouldn't produce the Avatar (which is all the same to Sozin) even under threat of destruction, the already ill tempered Sozin, now riding high on a comet powered buzz snapped and made good on his threat.

no way back from there.
Aangs fault. <.<
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Tamerlan Pahlavi
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 18, 2015 12:24 am »

First of, the true hero of Avatar is Sozin, not Roku, not even Aang.

I'll explain.

He was, quite literally, a god.

He doesn't have a father, he was his own ancestor, an avatar, an avatar of light. He knew in advance ALL that would happen and planned for it. Wiping out the Air Nomads was part of his plan to save the world.

He needed to make them vanish for them to be reborn in Aang, that's why there is only one corpse, Gyatso, the man who wished to go against all that could or can be. Overprotective father indeed.

Aang wished for his spirit to be reborn into a better time, Sozin made it come true, hence the iceberg. The Avatar need to be made ready to fulfill his role as The Savior.

Azulon planned in advance what would happen, that there had to be only ONE airbender and Only ONE water master in the south pole so that the story could advance.
Hence, his search for the Avatar was more spiritual in nature than nurture than the show might make us believe.
Hence, all that happened in Avatar happened for a reason, the reason being Sozin's plot to save ALL

ALL souls

Sozin was the Avatar while Aang waited.
He kept the world stable, hence no war on Ba Sing Se for ages to come
Ba Sing Se had to fall in the time of Azula

Hence, his reluctance to be at war with the Earth Kingdom.
The Earth Kingdom started to be attacked only in the time of Ozai
The Cycle had to be fulfilled

Azulon represented the earth but he focused on Water
Hence his capturing of waterbenders
He didn't intend for them to kill
He intended for them to be locked up for safe keeping and being released after the war.
Hence why the Water tribe recovered so quickly once the fighting ended.
I am sure that Avatar Sozin kept the world in balance while Aang was asleep
In the first year of the war only Ba Sing Se was safe

Air Nation genocide showed the world what the Fire Nation was capable of
Showing that not to be messed with is Fire Business.
Hence why the Earth King didn't go to war with the Avatar (Sozin) immediately
Only later would he dare attack and provoke the Fire Nation into genocide against them

That's what happened when Ozai planned to burn the Earth Kingdom
It was a young war and it had to be done

No one else could save the Earth Kingdom from itself while Ozai was gone.
His effort to liberate Ba Sing Se from all that was corrupted backfired
But in a good way

Iroh LIBERATED it

That is the story of The War

A hundred years is nothing to an avatar for he lives immortal.

An avatar can be anyone and Sozin was the one who could do it
He kept the world stable during his time, knowing what was to come
The Fire Nation was officially at war
But that was just preparation

The TRUE war only happened when Aang was alive again
Reconciliation awaited and Sozin and Iroh both know the plan

Aang had to bring peace and calm to the world and take his place as the TRUE avatar
Hence why on the Day of Reconciliation, the finale, Ozai slept in his prison cell, dreaming of what is to come, planning for a time when Zuko would be his son again
Roku was wise and Zuko adopted him as his grandfather, fulfilling the prophecy of "The Avatar and the Fire Lord"
Ba Sing Se will fall
But fall for a reason
Reason being the cleansing, that abandonment of all that was bad and rotten while it was alive, bringing refuge and shelter to every Earth Kingdom citizen, The Last Paradise of Earth.

But Paradise can rot
That's why it HAD to fall, by Azula's hand, the trickster of common sense.
Why wait when all can be acomplished
Azula was part of the Masterplan

Freeing THE city and giving it a time to rest for what is to come
She didn't knew it at that time but she became the savior of the city

The Dai Li are hers
and Long Feng her commander, secret commander
She left them in peace
Only keeping them as souvenir

All ends well what starts well, and Sozin, God, made it happen
His prophecies are the stuff of legends and he is rightly worshiped and remembered as such by all citizens of his empire

Pljačka, plunder, that's what the Fire Nation was doing during his time
Gathering resources for the masterplan that awaited them all

No mention of the Air Nation army
They disappeared in one night
Sozin was the only one who fought, and he fought Monk Gyatso, the only one who could stand in his way
All battles between Sozin and Gyatso were recorded, for he, Gyatso, was a one man army

This is the explanation of why the Fire Nation didn't use divide and conquer, it was their plan all along to bring unity, not separation, and unity AGAINST them was part of their plan.

Sozin was also impatient
He wanted to BE with the Avatar, his only friend
Hence his cruel mercy when he killed Gyatso, the man who would keep him awake and hide the Avatar from him.
« Last Edit: Oct 18, 2015 12:27 am by Tamerlan » Logged

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Celestine
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« Reply #10 on: Feb 24, 2016 06:43 pm »

I have a theory that they did use divide-and-conquer, at least to beat the Air Nomads.

Comet-powered firebending is nice and all, but even that can only do so much against monks who can just fly away from you. This problem is particularly exacerbated when these monks adhere to a philosophy of non-violence and are nomads to begin with. In fact, calling the Air Nomads a "nation" is probably a stretch, given the name of said nation. Sure, there are the Air Temples, but with only four locations, these are likely just Air Nomad motels where the traveling monks can have a definite safe place to sleep, meditate, and congregate. Again, either the name of the nation is a lie, or they really are nomadic.

Assuming that names actually mean something in Avatar, it stands to reason that the Air Nomads were basically the Avatarverse's version of gypsies, meaning that they spent large portions of their lives in the other three nations. If Sozin knew the next avatar would be an Air Nomad, it would be next to impossible to find him. You can't just invade everywhere at once and go house to house. Fortunately, there is a simple solution: trun the world hostile to the Air Nomads and let the world do the hunting for you. A few bribes and some bounties would probably go a long way towards this, all the while, not necessarily showing your hand that you were after the avatar so you could invade everybody. Basically, the idea is to make no place safe for Air Nomads except for the temples. This is in-line with the timeframe, as Sozin waited twelve years to use the comet to wipe out a nation that had no army to begin with. It also ensures that he doesn't spend the next hundred years hunting Air Nomads in the Earth Kingdom while fighting a war there.

Make the world hate the Air Nomads, or at least offer up plenty of gold to get local authorities or mercenaries to hunt them down. For their own safety, the surviving Air Nomads congregate at the Air Temples. Then, Sozin uses the comet to wipe them all out in one fell swoop. Anyone who escapes will be forced out into a world where they have nowhere to run. It's genius... if it's true. But, it's just my headcanon for now until proven otherwise.
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