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Author Topic: Avatar Kyoshi lived 230 years  (Read 8071 times)
Loopy
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« Reply #25 on: Jun 26, 2015 07:14 pm »

How can he actually be there? He has no physical form. Something of a non-physical, spiritual nature manifested, and all we know is how Korra and Tenzin perceived that manifestation.

I mean, the alternative is that Aang was a Class-5 Full-Roaming Vapor made of ectoplasm, and I'm not sure I want to imagine him like that. Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: Jun 27, 2015 02:29 pm »

How can he actually be there? He has no physical form. Something of a non-physical, spiritual nature manifested, and all we know is how Korra and Tenzin perceived that manifestation.

I mean, the alternative is that Aang was a Class-5 Full-Roaming Vapor made of ectoplasm, and I'm not sure I want to imagine him like that. Cheesy
He was actually there because he is a spirit...And spirits are able to walk around and be well you know physical because they pick things up. Aang changing forms is no surprise because every spirit can do it too... So he was actually there like the millions of spirits roaming avatar now.
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Loopy
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« Reply #27 on: Jun 29, 2015 05:50 pm »

You're assuming Ghosts and Spirits are the same thing. All the Avatar material has been very vague on how dead people work in its cosmology.
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Riptide
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« Reply #28 on: Jun 30, 2015 03:34 pm »

You're assuming Ghosts and Spirits are the same thing. All the Avatar material has been very vague on how dead people work in its cosmology.
Apparently they work the same because they have been seen doing the same thing countless times. Appearing from no where and changing forms...Avatars also roam the spirit world. I don't even thing the term ghost has never been used in avatar either and if it was I certainly wasn't used to describe a past avatar.
« Last Edit: Jun 30, 2015 03:39 pm by Riptide » Logged
Loopy
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« Reply #29 on: Jun 30, 2015 05:12 pm »

Well, that's hardly logic. Badgermoles and humans have been seen doing the same thing plenty of times- existing in the same world, traveling through caves, Earthbending, forming family units, raising young, licking new friends, etc- but they're obviously not the same.

We should be wary of lumping things like Spirits and Past Avatars together. "Spirit" itself is a very wide term, that can mean many different things even outside the notion of supernatural beings, and trying to force the same rules onto both can be overly restrictive.
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Riptide
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« Reply #30 on: Jun 30, 2015 08:26 pm »

Well, that's hardly logic. Badgermoles and humans have been seen doing the same thing plenty of times- existing in the same world, traveling through caves, Earthbending, forming family units, raising young, licking new friends, etc- but they're obviously not the same.

We should be wary of lumping things like Spirits and Past Avatars together. "Spirit" itself is a very wide term, that can mean many different things even outside the notion of supernatural beings, and trying to force the same rules onto both can be overly restrictive.
Well "Spirit" in the spirit world has only ONE meaning. Someone or something that isn't from the material world or has crossed over into the spirit world. The badger mole thing wasn't necessary, we don't even know if badger moles live in family units, raise there young, and licking new friends??
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Loopy
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« Reply #31 on: Jul 01, 2015 04:56 pm »

So Iroh is a Spirit, since he crossed over to the Spirit World?
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« Reply #32 on: Jul 01, 2015 06:52 pm »

So Iroh is a Spirit, since he crossed over to the Spirit World?
He is a spirit now yes. he said he chose to leave his physical body. Remember giant Korra? Everyone refered to her as Spirit Korra because she left her body and turned blue.
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Loopy
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« Reply #33 on: Jul 02, 2015 07:47 pm »

Oh, I wasn't talking about Legend of Korra. I don't think that Iroh is a spirit, but regardless, I was talking about ATLA!Iroh, who had been to the Spirit World but was still living flesh and blood.
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« Reply #34 on: Jul 04, 2015 03:04 pm »

Oh, I wasn't talking about Legend of Korra. I don't think that Iroh is a spirit, but regardless, I was talking about ATLA!Iroh, who had been to the Spirit World but was still living flesh and blood.
That isn't an excuse. ATLA is LOK...different name same universe. Once you meditate into spirit world you are in spirit form. Iroh directly said to Korra that he left his physical body behind. He left his body and now lives in spirit world hmmm he is a spirit.
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Loopy
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« Reply #35 on: Jul 04, 2015 03:15 pm »

I wasn't making an excuse, I was just clarifying that I wanted an answer to the question of whether Iroh became a spirit starting with his first trip to the Spirit World, before his death. Because your definition says that he would be a spirit even while he was still alive and living in the physical world, just because he had passed over to the Spirit World once before.

As for Iroh being a spirit as of LoK, I still don't believe it. He didn't show any of the powers or nature of Spirits, and the only thing saying that he's a Spirit at all is your broad definition that doesn't have any actual evidence in the show itself.

To get away from the confusion of Iroh's various statuses throughout his life, did Sokka become a Spirit when Hei Bai captured him? Was Sokka only a Spirit for the day he was missing, or was he a Spirit ever after?
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« Reply #36 on: Jul 05, 2015 12:24 pm »

I wasn't making an excuse, I was just clarifying that I wanted an answer to the question of whether Iroh became a spirit starting with his first trip to the Spirit World, before his death. Because your definition says that he would be a spirit even while he was still alive and living in the physical world, just because he had passed over to the Spirit World once before.

As for Iroh being a spirit as of LoK, I still don't believe it. He didn't show any of the powers or nature of Spirits, and the only thing saying that he's a Spirit at all is your broad definition that doesn't have any actual evidence in the show itself.

To get away from the confusion of Iroh's various statuses throughout his life, did Sokka become a Spirit when Hei Bai captured him? Was Sokka only a Spirit for the day he was missing, or was he a Spirit ever after?
People still have spiritual forms when ever they meditate. Sokka was physically taken into spirit world just like Zhao so no he wasn't a spirit for a day.
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Loopy
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« Reply #37 on: Jul 06, 2015 06:55 pm »

So what constitutes a spirit form? Can those shapeshift? Because Hei Bai could shapeshift- all the Spirits who went Dark in LoK were showing shapeshifting properties- but we saw real Spirits do that.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where your assumptions are coming from, but I'm really not sure how we can close this gap we evidently have between how we're seeing this. I don't want to make assumptions about how things work without any direction evidence, but there doesn't seem to be any such evidence in the show itself, or I feel like you would have brought it up before now.
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« Reply #38 on: Jul 14, 2015 09:59 am »

So what constitutes a spirit form? Can those shapeshift? Because Hei Bai could shapeshift- all the Spirits who went Dark in LoK were showing shapeshifting properties- but we saw real Spirits do that.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where your assumptions are coming from, but I'm really not sure how we can close this gap we evidently have between how we're seeing this. I don't want to make assumptions about how things work without any direction evidence, but there doesn't seem to be any such evidence in the show itself, or I feel like you would have brought it up before now.
Well I just finished watching episode 10 of book 2. When you meditate you are definitely a spirit. Korra was able to turn into a YOUNGER version of herself and back into an adult, just like Aang. Then when ever she got hit by Unalaq's water blast spirit particles started to fall from her arm...Then Unalaq used a dark spirit magic on her and Jinora. Apparently everyone has a spirit in them and it has been quoted by Tenzin when he said Jinora's spirit was trapped in the spirit world.


All of this is strong evidence. Iroh is permanently in his spirit form.
« Last Edit: Jul 14, 2015 10:06 am by Riptide » Logged
Loopy
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« Reply #39 on: Jul 14, 2015 06:20 pm »

But Spirits don't fall apart when splashed by water.

I think there are spirits and there are Spirits, and those are different things that share some level of energy composition. Sort of like how fruits and metal are both made of matter, but are very distinct expressions of that.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #40 on: Jul 15, 2015 03:43 am »

But Spirits don't fall apart when splashed by water.

Lesser spirits fall apart from a mundane kick in the face:
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« Reply #41 on: Jul 15, 2015 05:56 am »

But Spirits don't fall apart when splashed by water.



You were saying?  Wink

(Not sure why that didn't seem to work on the 2x01 and 2x05 spirits, but... Vaatu's the biggest, meanest Spirit around.)
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« Reply #42 on: Jul 15, 2015 06:59 am »

...but... Vaatu's the biggest, meanest Spirit around.

I dunno, but this was neither implied, nor showed/told. Vaatu was a big and mean spirit, but he was a high-mid league player at best.
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« Reply #43 on: Jul 15, 2015 07:52 am »


Korra as a little girl slapped this and it started falling apart.



Bending alone makes spirits fall apart.

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I dunno, but this was neither implied, nor showed/told. Vaatu was a big and mean spirit, but he was a high-mid league player at best.
Vaatu and Raava are the most powerful spirits. It was implied throughout season two, then theres the fact Vaatu has control over other spirits and has the power to throw the world into darkness and only Raava/Avatar can defeat him.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #44 on: Jul 15, 2015 08:04 am »

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I dunno, but this was neither implied, nor showed/told. Vaatu was a big and mean spirit, but he was a high-mid league player at best.
Vaatu and Raava are the most powerful spirits. It was implied throughout season two, then theres the fact Vaatu has control over other spirits and has the power to throw the world into darkness and only Raava/Avatar can defeat him.

Vaatu could only control lesser spirits, nothing serious. He couldn't turn stuff like Lion Turtles to his side. In fact, everyone above a certain level sh*t on Vaatu. Also, Vaatu didn't have the power to throw the world into darkness. The Harmonic Convergence did. It also allowed an at-that-time random mortal girl (Korra) to turn herself into a giant spirit human thing and kick Unavaatu's butt.

Hell, in Book 4, Varrick recreated Vaatu's dubstep laser and he even made it even more powerful.
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Keeper of Suki's firebending ancestry, the Kyoshi Warrior dojo, the love potion made from rainbows and sunsets and the mecha tanks.

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« Reply #45 on: Jul 15, 2015 11:32 am »

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I dunno, but this was neither implied, nor showed/told. Vaatu was a big and mean spirit, but he was a high-mid league player at best.
Vaatu and Raava are the most powerful spirits. It was implied throughout season two, then theres the fact Vaatu has control over other spirits and has the power to throw the world into darkness and only Raava/Avatar can defeat him.

Vaatu could only control lesser spirits, nothing serious. He couldn't turn stuff like Lion Turtles to his side. In fact, everyone above a certain level sh*t on Vaatu. Also, Vaatu didn't have the power to throw the world into darkness. The Harmonic Convergence did. It also allowed an at-that-time random mortal girl (Korra) to turn herself into a giant spirit human thing and kick Unavaatu's butt.

Hell, in Book 4, Varrick recreated Vaatu's dubstep laser and he even made it even more powerful.
Lmao. Lesser spirits? That's only because those were the only spirits shown in his presence. He couldn't turn lion turtles on his side duh! The same reason he couldn't turn humans because they ARE'NT spirits... Name on thing that's more powerful than Vaatu besides Raava. You cant, because no one else is. You are wrong about Harmonic Convergence. That is the time when the two Ultimate Spirits face off and when the Connection between the two worlds are at its strongest, I mean they stated this several times throughout the book, especially in the Wan story arc. Finally Korra couldn't  beat Unavaatu so you might wanna watch the episode. Jinora distracted him long enough for Korra to pull RAAVA out of him, giving her the power to purify him. Korra isn't a regular mortal, she is the Avatar so why you say that? Even without Raava she is still powerful.

Varrick did not recreate Vaatu's beam completely. He merely concentrated spirit energy, and theres no evidence that its stronger. Vaatu took out an entire UR Fleet and some buildings just like the spirit beam. Then he can waterbend and control the vines.


If Jinora never came in to help, Korra would've died.
« Last Edit: Jul 15, 2015 11:41 am by Riptide » Logged
AtoMaki
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« Reply #46 on: Jul 15, 2015 12:57 pm »

You are wrong about Harmonic Convergence. That is the time when the two Ultimate Spirits face off...

Evidence? Because I can't find any. They just say that Raava and Vaatu fight during the HC, and whoever wins can steal the event to bring 10k years of light/darkness. Or at least 1 day of light/darkness, because once the HC ends, the world pretty much returns to normal (just see how successful Raava was with her 10k years of light).

If Jinora never came in to help, Korra would've died.

Point is that at that point, Korra was an average young woman. Nothing special. Yet, she managed to turn into a giant spirit and give Unavaatu a beating. That's... pretty poor if you think about it.
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Keeper of Suki's firebending ancestry, the Kyoshi Warrior dojo, the love potion made from rainbows and sunsets and the mecha tanks.

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« Reply #47 on: Jul 15, 2015 05:04 pm »

So, I'm confused, do Spirits falls apart when you kick or slap them and Hei Bai is simply made of Spirit Iron, or does LoK have shenanigans going on with its portrayal of things established in ATLA? Grin

Again, this just highlights why I'm reluctant to group every glowy thing in the entire Avatar franchise into one "spirit" classification.
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Riptide
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« Reply #48 on: Jul 15, 2015 06:35 pm »

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Evidence? Because I can't find any. They just say that Raava and Vaatu fight during the HC, and whoever wins can steal the event to bring 10k years of light/darkness. Or at least 1 day of light/darkness, because once the HC ends, the world pretty much returns to normal (just see how successful Raava was with her 10k years of light).
They didn't just say that. They said specifically that its the time that the Spirit and Normal world are most connected. How does the world return to normal? If Vaatu wins the entire Earth will be covered in dark spirits and purple sky, I think everyone implied that already... If he loses then no dark spirits and evil sky. We never saw what happens Vaatu wins but obviously Unavaatu is gonna go destroying cities with his spirit minions.

Quote
Point is that at that point, Korra was an average young woman. Nothing special. Yet, she managed to turn into a giant spirit and give Unavaatu a beating. That's... pretty poor if you think about it.
Again I just told you that Korra is the Avatar.                                                                  

Ring any bells? Guru Pathik explained that Avatars are connected to cosmic energy of the universe and they can do things no one else can. Why you think Korra is normal is beyond me...Only Avatars can connect to that energy and turn giant, or stop spirit beams, or split islands...

Aang.

Quote
So, I'm confused, do Spirits falls apart when you kick or slap them and Hei Bai is simply made of Spirit Iron, or does LoK have shenanigans going on with its portrayal of things established in ATLA?
Its durability, not every spirit can tank being hit by certain things. Earlier I posted a picture of a spirit completely being destroyed by a fireball, while Vaatu was able to regenerate, and apparently the Immunity spirit shown in the first episode wasn't even affected by anything.
« Last Edit: Jul 15, 2015 06:38 pm by Riptide » Logged
ahintoflime
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« Reply #49 on: Jul 15, 2015 10:41 pm »

This Kyoshi thread is lacking Kyoshi, by a lot.

And Book 2: Spirits isn't a healthy support basis, by a lot.
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