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Question: Rate This Episode:
10 - 87 (60.4%)
9 - 27 (18.8%)
8 - 11 (7.6%)
7 - 6 (4.2%)
6 - 2 (1.4%)
5 - 1 (0.7%)
4 - 3 (2.1%)
3 - 3 (2.1%)
2 - 0 (0%)
1 - 4 (2.8%)
Total Voters: 144

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Author Topic: [413] The Last Stand  (Read 88815 times)
Solid Sun
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« Reply #775 on: Jan 24, 2015 06:53 pm »

Her army wasn't wrecked, she only lost one platoon of mecha suits, she still had a ton of things left in her arsenal.

After all the gratuitous nuking, every nation on Earth had the right to get up and curb-stomp the whole empire to dust, without Metal Gear to nuke them, she was done for.

You know, considering that she put together that mecha within one week, I really wonder if she had more of it under construction or even awaiting for deployment. Maybe even some improved models? Like one without that completely useless barrel on the dubstep-cannon?

She probably would've deployed them to kill Republic City, since she's savvy enough to know that two are gud.
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Lucky
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« Reply #776 on: Jan 24, 2015 06:54 pm »

Why? I can see how people aren't happy with the way Korrasami happened, because it definitely was underdeveloped,

Ultimately this was the problem, and ultimately this is why I hate the majority of Bryke's "creative decisions" when it comes to things as important as this. I understand that they want to buck the trend, be socially conscious and "subversive" (they love that word in interviews), but it's one thing to really take a stand and tell that story from start to finish, and quite another to half bake something and then try and pass it off as being progressive. That's obviously what happened here.

I wouldn't have minded a Korrasami ending, if they had bothered to write it with depth, understanding and actually you know write that story. Asami was basically a forgotten day player that wasn't even apart of the major leading story until the end. We never got a chance to even watch this relationship grow or build, and Korra didn't even show much interest in her that seemed more then platonic or friendly. Don't tell me that it was done "subtly" either, that just defeats their argument because Makorra was all over the place and they were very direct in building that pairing through two whole seasons, even when they were never planned to be endgame. So how can that care not be carried over to Korrasami?

Bryke are incredibly frustrating as show runners, because they don't accurately execute their vision and then as another poster said above blame the viewer for not "picking up" on what they ended up writing, which seems like it was written by chance or on a whim anyway.  
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2015 07:01 pm by Lucky » Logged
Solid Sun
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« Reply #777 on: Jan 24, 2015 06:56 pm »

Not trying to defend them or anything but for all we know, executives were like "hu-no" when they tried to get some clues.
Then again, Nick was chill with the Korrasami ending.
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« Reply #778 on: Jan 24, 2015 07:09 pm »

Her army wasn't wrecked, she only lost one platoon of mecha suits, she still had a ton of things left in her arsenal.

After all the gratuitous nuking, every nation on Earth had the right to get up and curb-stomp the whole empire to dust, without Metal Gear to nuke them, she was done for.
Except for the fact that her army is larger and better technologically equipped than that of the other nations. I think she'd give them a run for their money.
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Spiritwhisperer
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« Reply #779 on: Jan 24, 2015 08:28 pm »

That spirit forest in Republic City did not prove itself to be dangerous though.

I suppose being kidnapped by vines and put into a glowy pod should be at least mildly dangerous  Smiley.

4 episodes ago is an eternity in tv land ^^ The vines appear to have calmed down as well, and I don't think Kuvira ever learned about the vine kidnappings.

Her army wasn't wrecked, she only lost one platoon of mecha suits, she still had a ton of things left in her arsenal.

After all the gratuitous nuking, every nation on Earth had the right to get up and curb-stomp the whole empire to dust, without Metal Gear to nuke them, she was done for.

You know, considering that she put together that mecha within one week, I really wonder if she had more of it under construction or even awaiting for deployment. Maybe even some improved models? Like one without that completely useless barrel on the dubstep-cannon?

I assume the mecha was built using Zao Fu's dismantled domes; which in part explains why the domes were dismantled at all (apart from making a statement) and how such a project could be completed so swiftly in secrecy.
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« Reply #780 on: Jan 24, 2015 08:36 pm »

What I want to know is how they could construct it out of platinum so quickly. They can't use their bending and platinum has a very high melting point, so it wouldn't be easy to shape it and to do so as quickly as they did shows some great engineering on their part.
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Loopy
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« Reply #781 on: Jan 24, 2015 08:57 pm »

It's amazing what 200 burly men with hammers can do when they're motivated.
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #782 on: Jan 25, 2015 04:43 am »

Her army wasn't wrecked, she only lost one platoon of mecha suits, she still had a ton of things left in her arsenal.

After all the gratuitous nuking, every nation on Earth had the right to get up and curb-stomp the whole empire to dust, without Metal Gear to nuke them, she was done for.
Except for the fact that her army is larger and better technologically equipped than that of the other nations. I think she'd give them a run for their money.

I except for the FN, the most technologically advanced nation on Earth during the 100 years war, to continue on their tracks. We haven't seen the FN but given the technology they had when the overall time period around them was like, middle-ages, I don't think the EE was that advanced compared to them.
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« Reply #783 on: Jan 25, 2015 05:25 am »

Why? I can see how people aren't happy with the way Korrasami happened, because it definitely was underdeveloped,

Ultimately this was the problem, and ultimately this is why I hate the majority of Bryke's "creative decisions" when it comes to things as important as this. I understand that they want to buck the trend, be socially conscious and "subversive" (they love that word in interviews), but it's one thing to really take a stand and tell that story from start to finish, and quite another to half bake something and then try and pass it off as being progressive. That's obviously what happened here.

I wouldn't have minded a Korrasami ending, if they had bothered to write it with depth, understanding and actually you know write that story. Asami was basically a forgotten day player that wasn't even apart of the major leading story until the end. We never got a chance to even watch this relationship grow or build, and Korra didn't even show much interest in her that seemed more then platonic or friendly. Don't tell me that it was done "subtly" either, that just defeats their argument because Makorra was all over the place and they were very direct in building that pairing through two whole seasons, even when they were never planned to be endgame. So how can that care not be carried over to Korrasami?

Bryke are incredibly frustrating as show runners, because they don't accurately execute their vision and then as another poster said above blame the viewer for not "picking up" on what they ended up writing, which seems like it was written by chance or on a whim anyway.   

One good thing I hope might come out of this: Bryke said they didn't consider Korrasami as a serious possibility because they assumed Nick wouldn't allow it, only to find it that they would allow it (within narrow margins), but that came too late. Hopefully the next time someone develops a new show and wants to include a non-hetero character, they will now know it's a possibility and do it right from the start.
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HikaruIzumi
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« Reply #784 on: Jan 25, 2015 05:45 am »

One good thing I hope might come out of this: Bryke said they didn't consider Korrasami as a serious possibility because they assumed Nick wouldn't allow it, only to find it that they would allow it (within narrow margins), but that came too late. Hopefully the next time someone develops a new show and wants to include a non-hetero character, they will now know it's a possibility and do it right from the start.
IIRC, we had at least one proof of meddling with Korrasami. There was this scene between Korra and Asami where they hugged. On the initial draft they were much closer to one another than in the show. It's questionable whether something like this happened only once or more and whose call it was. But I doubt Bryke would want them closer and then suddenly change their mind and put them farther.
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insertname
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« Reply #785 on: Jan 25, 2015 06:22 am »

One good thing I hope might come out of this: Bryke said they didn't consider Korrasami as a serious possibility because they assumed Nick wouldn't allow it, only to find it that they would allow it (within narrow margins), but that came too late. Hopefully the next time someone develops a new show and wants to include a non-hetero character, they will now know it's a possibility and do it right from the start.
IIRC, we had at least one proof of meddling with Korrasami. There was this scene between Korra and Asami where they hugged. On the initial draft they were much closer to one another than in the show. It's questionable whether something like this happened only once or more and whose call it was. But I doubt Bryke would want them closer and then suddenly change their mind and put them farther.

That's why I said within narrow margins. Nick clearly isn't a shining beacon of equal representation. But in the post after the finale, Bryan himself said that he didn't think Korrasami as an ending was possible, so they didn't put too much effort into it. Now of course it's possible that Nick would have held them back if they tried. But they didn't really try for a long time, and I think that's one of the major reasons why it was so underdeveloped.
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Hand of Vaatu
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« Reply #786 on: Jan 25, 2015 06:40 am »

I must say that besides Korrasami there have been a number of creative choices made by Bryke that have had me disappointed. I know that it is partly the fact that of course what I would have liked to have happen isn't what they would have wanted to happen but there are a number of things throughout the series that have just made me think how much are they thinking about certain interactions/scenes. Especially this season there have been a lot of things that have fallen flat.

Meh, really its just me imagining all of the things I would have happen throughout the season if I had Bryke's creative power. Oh well, back to the headcanon.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #787 on: Jan 25, 2015 07:43 am »

Her army wasn't wrecked, she only lost one platoon of mecha suits, she still had a ton of things left in her arsenal.

After all the gratuitous nuking, every nation on Earth had the right to get up and curb-stomp the whole empire to dust, without Metal Gear to nuke them, she was done for.
Except for the fact that her army is larger and better technologically equipped than that of the other nations. I think she'd give them a run for their money.

I except for the FN, the most technologically advanced nation on Earth during the 100 years war, to continue on their tracks. We haven't seen the FN but given the technology they had when the overall time period around them was like, middle-ages, I don't think the EE was that advanced compared to them.

The UR was said to be the most advanced nation, yet the EE managed to get even better tech (obsolete UR mecha tanks vs shiny new EE mecha suits).
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Lucky
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« Reply #788 on: Jan 25, 2015 01:23 pm »

One good thing I hope might come out of this: Bryke said they didn't consider Korrasami as a serious possibility because they assumed Nick wouldn't allow it, only to find it that they would allow it (within narrow margins), but that came too late. Hopefully the next time someone develops a new show and wants to include a non-hetero character, they will now know it's a possibility and do it right from the start.
IIRC, we had at least one proof of meddling with Korrasami. There was this scene between Korra and Asami where they hugged. On the initial draft they were much closer to one another than in the show. It's questionable whether something like this happened only once or more and whose call it was. But I doubt Bryke would want them closer and then suddenly change their mind and put them farther.

That's why I said within narrow margins. Nick clearly isn't a shining beacon of equal representation. But in the post after the finale, Bryan himself said that he didn't think Korrasami as an ending was possible, so they didn't put too much effort into it. Now of course it's possible that Nick would have held them back if they tried. But they didn't really try for a long time, and I think that's one of the major reasons why it was so underdeveloped.

That's another issue that I can't even properly deal with regarding their decision. If it wasn't a big enough deal to fight for it in the first place what is the point in doing it other than to solely rake in accolades from the LGBTQ community? I hate feeling like this, because I feel the idea is in the right place. Representation is needed and warranted by all. But ultimately the narrative was sacrificed for something that was so poorly cared for, neglected and sidelined continuously for other things -- how important could it have been to them? I mean it got to the point where fans are saying this ship didn't even exist outside of vague sand grains of text and shoulder grabs. While another couple in the same text no less was given nearly 30 episodes to develop, which is nearly a majority of the series and I just can't.  

This just makes that entire portion of the project both gratuitous, teethless and useless in the thick of things. If they didn't care about Korrasami enough to fight for it in the first place, and if it didn't impact enough story to be added to the text as a full 360 degree representation what was the point in canonizing it in the last ten seconds anyway? Which leads me to the assessment of needing brownie points. 

It shows no care for the show, and it makes it seem as if Bryke just wanted to be 1st, which just seems both immature and purile.
« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2015 01:28 pm by Lucky » Logged
Esperaholon
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« Reply #789 on: Jan 25, 2015 03:21 pm »

Lucky don't take this the wrong way, but - I love you. You have said everything I ever felt about the shenanigan that is Korrasami and you said it well. So yeah.

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Spiritwhisperer
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« Reply #790 on: Jan 25, 2015 06:15 pm »

It's such a horrid, horrid shame, because it could've been done way better and been vastly more meaningful with even a handful modest tweaks.
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« Reply #791 on: Feb 03, 2015 02:22 pm »

It shows no care for the show, and it makes it seem as if Bryke just wanted to be 1st, which just seems both immature and purile.

I hardly think it's fair to say Bryke "doesn't care" about the show. They do.

But I will agree that Korrasami was underdeveloped, and I would've enjoyed it being fleshed out a bit more.
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Lunar_Prodigy
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« Reply #792 on: Feb 04, 2015 03:53 pm »

It shows no care for the show, and it makes it seem as if Bryke just wanted to be 1st, which just seems both immature and purile.

I hardly think it's fair to say Bryke "doesn't care" about the show. They do.

But I will agree that Korrasami was underdeveloped, and I would've enjoyed it being fleshed out a bit more.

I actually like the fact that it was underdeveloped. I usually just kind of deal with relationship stuff in shows and movies. It usually isn't something that really interests me. And I see Korrasami as being subtle instead of underdeveloped. Because their relationship was not shoved down the throats of the fans like most relationships on TV and in movies, I actually like it a lot more. It did feel a little random, but many times in reality that is how romantic relationships happen. The fact that it happened that way just made it more special for me. I mean I can't say I was overly excited about it, but I never really get that way for romance. I am not sure if I successfully explained what I wanted to.
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HikaruIzumi
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« Reply #793 on: Feb 05, 2015 01:53 pm »

I actually like the fact that it was underdeveloped. I usually just kind of deal with relationship stuff in shows and movies. It usually isn't something that really interests me. And I see Korrasami as being subtle instead of underdeveloped. Because their relationship was not shoved down the throats of the fans like most relationships on TV and in movies, I actually like it a lot more. It did feel a little random, but many times in reality that is how romantic relationships happen.
I agree with you. I usually avoid shows that focus on relationship as much as the main plot but sometimes I do watch them because of the plot and it's really annoying.
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #794 on: Feb 05, 2015 01:57 pm »

The problem is the focus you need to put on something.

Too much screen-time for a relationship ? "BS ! WHERE THE HELL IS MY SEXY SUPER SAIYAN FIGHTING !"

Not enough screen-time for a relationship ? "BS ! I WANT LESS SEXY SUPER SAIYAN FIGHTING !"
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Avatar Epsilon
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« Reply #795 on: Feb 05, 2015 01:58 pm »

I actually like the fact that it was underdeveloped. I usually just kind of deal with relationship stuff in shows and movies. It usually isn't something that really interests me. And I see Korrasami as being subtle instead of underdeveloped. Because their relationship was not shoved down the throats of the fans like most relationships on TV and in movies, I actually like it a lot more. It did feel a little random, but many times in reality that is how romantic relationships happen.
I agree with you. I usually avoid shows that focus on relationship as much as the main plot but sometimes I do watch them because of the plot and it's really annoying.

But in that case wouldn't it be better to just not have the romance at all then have a poorly developed one?
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HikaruIzumi
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« Reply #796 on: Feb 05, 2015 02:12 pm »

But in that case wouldn't it be better to just not have the romance at all then have a poorly developed one?
That's awfully unrealistic that in a large group of people everyone would act like asexuals. You could see it as liking the lesser of 3 evils. Too much romance = annoying and boring, no romance = too unrealistic. Subtle romance = good enough for me. Sure, you can see it as underdeveloped but considering the other options, I like this one the most.

The problem is the focus you need to put on something.

Too much screen-time for a relationship ? "BS ! WHERE THE HELL IS MY SEXY SUPER SAIYAN FIGHTING !"

Not enough screen-time for a relationship ? "BS ! I WANT LESS SEXY SUPER SAIYAN FIGHTING !"
True, there's something similar going on in Fairy Tail quite recently. Every arc discussion is either filled with either "Where the hell is the romance?!!" or "What is this melodrama?!" even though the romance goes from very subtle to subtle. Cheesy
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« Reply #797 on: Feb 05, 2015 02:52 pm »

Its not a large group though. Its four people.
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HikaruIzumi
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« Reply #798 on: Feb 05, 2015 03:03 pm »

Its not a large group though. Its four people.
I was talking in general. And no romance means no romance. The whole cast is much bigger than 4 people. So no Bopal, no Boleska, no Zhurrick, no Masami, no Makorra etc. 
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« Reply #799 on: Feb 05, 2015 05:39 pm »

I thought we were just talking about the core group.

Romance between side characters is fine. You don't have to develop it as much. You can get away with a few hints here and there while just throwing in one or two actual scenes for whatever side-couple you are dealing with. That's why I have never complained about Zhurrick. While not as out of left field as Korrasami, Zhurrick was still just suddenly a thing in Book 4. But they are both side characters. The story doesn't follow them, so a lack of focus on the relationship can be overlooked.

Korrasami though is a relationship between two of the series main characters. Just throwing them together at the end is unacceptable. And I'm sorry, but calling it subtle build up is being generous. Subtle things are meant to support the backbone of a relationship, not carry it. If subtlety is all a relationship has going for it, then it's not much of a relationship.

My point is, if you don't like romance to be a focus that much in stories. Wouldn't you still rather there be no romantic relationship that a poorly done one? Keep the side romances as those don't have to be the focus but as far as major characters go...why bother with a romance if you aren't actually gonna try?
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