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Question: Rate This Episode:
10 - 87 (60.4%)
9 - 27 (18.8%)
8 - 11 (7.6%)
7 - 6 (4.2%)
6 - 2 (1.4%)
5 - 1 (0.7%)
4 - 3 (2.1%)
3 - 3 (2.1%)
2 - 0 (0%)
1 - 4 (2.8%)
Total Voters: 144

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Author Topic: [413] The Last Stand  (Read 56442 times)
HikaruIzumi
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« Reply #800 on: Feb 05, 2015 05:52 pm »

My point is, if you don't like romance to be a focus that much in stories. Wouldn't you still rather there be no romantic relationship that a poorly done one? Keep the side romances as those don't have to be the focus but as far as major characters go...why bother with a romance if you aren't actually gonna try?
I already replied to this and I think it wasn't done poorly, it was done subtly and I liked it. And like I wrote before no romance is equal to too much romance in my book. Both are something I dislike. Maybe it would surprise you but there are subtle romantic relationships out there. Not everyone needs explicitly stating everything. In other words subtle romance > no romance or focus on romance. Which is why I like Korrasami.
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Uzuko
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« Reply #801 on: Feb 06, 2015 11:35 am »

The Korra and Asami "romance" wasn't done subtly it was just done badly. The few times Asami's character shows real and complicated emotions is around her father. The scene where her father dies is intense, and is totally undercut afterwards when she cries needs to be comforted by Korra is so fake and forced.

Especially in the previous scene where Korra had a much more emotional talk with her ex than she ever does with Asami. The entire Korra and Asami ending feels like a joke and trolling then the start of a romance.
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #802 on: Feb 06, 2015 11:48 am »

For all we know, Nick wasn't okay with all the openly bisexual romance and Bryke had to do the ending without the hints they wanted to add.
Nick was still okay with the ending, so I don't think we should only blame them tho.
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luvavatar
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« Reply #803 on: Feb 06, 2015 12:36 pm »

I'm also part of the group that doesn't think it was done subtly, it was done poorly. Their romance doesn't have any great buildup and their friendship pretty much only gets focused on in the third season. Even if Nick wasn't okay with two openly bisexual characters (which doesn't seem to be the case), it was Bryke and the other writers that chose not to have Asami and Korra interact that much. I'm sorry but a letter and a short outburst aren't really enough. They should've had the entire team together from the beginning, instead of Korra going all Bruce Banner and being alone for half the final season. We should've seen Korra and Asami as close friends, instead of a few short scenes that felt really forced as if trying to convey something larger. Their entire relationship was just done haphazardly in my opinion.
« Last Edit: Feb 06, 2015 12:39 pm by luvavatar » Logged
The_Xov
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« Reply #804 on: Feb 06, 2015 12:48 pm »

My point is, if you don't like romance to be a focus that much in stories. Wouldn't you still rather there be no romantic relationship that a poorly done one? Keep the side romances as those don't have to be the focus but as far as major characters go...why bother with a romance if you aren't actually gonna try?
I already replied to this and I think it wasn't done poorly, it was done subtly and I liked it. And like I wrote before no romance is equal to too much romance in my book. Both are something I dislike. Maybe it would surprise you but there are subtle romantic relationships out there. Not everyone needs explicitly stating everything. In other words subtle romance > no romance or focus on romance. Which is why I like Korrasami.
I'm an outside-looking-in sorta guy w/regards to romance, and the only ones I'm aware of are the ones with clear, overt, development.  Not to the point where it risks hijacking the plot like with the Book 1 LT, but still overt.  Do you have examples of these subtle examples?
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HikaruIzumi
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« Reply #805 on: Feb 06, 2015 01:41 pm »

I'm an outside-looking-in sorta guy w/regards to romance, and the only ones I'm aware of are the ones with clear, overt, development.  Not to the point where it risks hijacking the plot like with the Book 1 LT, but still overt.  Do you have examples of these subtle examples?
Well, most of the shows I saw it in are anime. But there are few examples in western media as well at the top of my head: Teen Titans was subtle with all couples. They did have screen time but it wasn't in your face. Especially Beast Boy and Terra could just as easily be seen as nothing more than friends with no romantic undertones until they became a couple. Starfire and Robin never officially became a couple but they often went on dates and in general behaved like a couple. Though that's a different type of subtlety and more of a Show Don't Tell approach.

Anime examples would be: Naruto (especially NaruHina), Dragon Ball (Z), Full Metal Alchemist (Brotherhood), Neon Genesis Evangelion (Shinji/Asuka) and I could go on and on. There are even more subtle examples where it's borderline subtext and they don't end up together for one reason or another but the characters' actions make very little sense if they weren't at least attracted to one another such a Lain or Love Live (especially the second season).
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Uzuko
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« Reply #806 on: Feb 06, 2015 02:14 pm »

I really would't consider Beast Boy and Starfire subtle when it comes to there romantic interests. I mean Beast Boy is show with hearts in his eyes at various points, and Starfire smashes a car out of jealousy during Robin's black mail date.

Naruto isn't a good example for romance or subtle either. Hinata exists only to be cute, shy, and as a love interest. Sakura has some character moments, but ultimately ends up with Sasuke who tried to kill her on several occasions. Neither of these characters are subtle in their interests either. They are passionately in love with their love interests since childhood. Ginny Weasley was the same boat, but at least Rowling showed her having a dating life outside of her childhood love interest.
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HikaruIzumi
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« Reply #807 on: Feb 06, 2015 02:58 pm »

I really would't consider Beast Boy and Starfire subtle when it comes to there romantic interests. I mean Beast Boy is show with hearts in his eyes at various points, and Starfire smashes a car out of jealousy during Robin's black mail date.

Naruto isn't a good example for romance or subtle either. Hinata exists only to be cute, shy, and as a love interest. Sakura has some character moments, but ultimately ends up with Sasuke who tried to kill her on several occasions. Neither of these characters are subtle in their interests either. They are passionately in love with their love interests since childhood. Ginny Weasley was the same boat, but at least Rowling showed her having a dating life outside of her childhood love interest.
I can give you Beast Boy but I'm talking about their interactions. I could equally say that Asami was clearly interested in Korra because she followed her everywhere like a stalker. However, women can get very jealous when their male friends get a girlfriend because they pay less attention to the friend (this is actually quite common and attraction isn't involved in most cases).

Sakura was open about her attraction only pre-time skip. Many people felt like she got attracted to Naruto afterwards (which was clearly wrong). Same goes for NaruHina post-time skip. Post-time skip, Sakura was as attracted to Sasuke as Naruto. Who, by the way, was much more obsessed with Sasuke than anyone else. Sure, Hinata showed some hints of attraction but until Pein arc it could be easily explained in many different ways and many people also assumed she got over her feelings post-Pein arc (the NaruSaku hug). And don't get me started on Naruto, I've seen whole essays explaining why he wasn't attracted to Hinata at all and saw her just as a friend during the last arc and why Hinata was showed to have gotten over her feelings. Or why NaruSaku was canon. These essays were all bringing up valid points and if the characters were the same gender minority would assume NaruHina was more than just friendship.

But we're getting into dangerous off-topic zone here. If you want we can continue this via PMs.
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Spiritwhisperer
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« Reply #808 on: Feb 06, 2015 04:25 pm »

For all we know, Nick wasn't okay with all the openly bisexual romance and Bryke had to do the ending without the hints they wanted to add.
Nick was still okay with the ending, so I don't think we should only blame them tho.

Somewhere near the end of the process they asked Nick whether it was okay, and to their surprise Nick supported them, so they made the ending more romantic during the re-take process.
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Uzuko
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« Reply #809 on: Feb 06, 2015 04:46 pm »

I dislike the the romance in Naruto as much as the Korra and Asami farce.

Korra and Asami's interactions in the Last Stand weren't a subtle romance but just bad. Asami was pathetically flat compared to the other characters in her final scenes. When the characters are searching for Korra Asami's expression is just vague and doll like. Mako and Jinora are clearly concered about the missing Korra, and it is Tenzin who lets his emotions out about her missing. Korra and Asami's final discussion is stale compared to Korra and Mako being there for one another in the scene before hand. Asami's little cry is the culmination of what remains of her character being sucked out, and the writers could done a better job at portraying her need to heal and Korra's need for rest as a vacation and a camping trip.
« Last Edit: Feb 06, 2015 08:12 pm by Uzuko » Logged
Solid Sun
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« Reply #810 on: Feb 06, 2015 05:14 pm »

I think this is a good indicator of how a single un-adressed ship can ruin the ending.
If the series ended with Wu and Mako going to the spirit world, or Wu and Mako kissing or making innuendos, how would've people reacted ?
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Avatar Epsilon
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« Reply #811 on: Feb 06, 2015 05:28 pm »

If the series ended with Wu and Mako going to the spirit world, or Wu and Mako kissing or making innuendos, how would've people reacted ?

Uhh...I would have had the same reaction has I did to Korrasami. Why would my reaction be any different? Neither relationship hinted at romance.
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Spiritwhisperer
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« Reply #812 on: Feb 06, 2015 05:36 pm »

If the series ended with Wu and Mako going to the spirit world, or Wu and Mako kissing or making innuendos, how would've people reacted ?

Uhh...I would have had the same reaction has I did to Korrasami. Why would my reaction be any different? Neither relationship hinted at romance.

Maybe you were watching it with heterolenses ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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The_Xov
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« Reply #813 on: Feb 06, 2015 06:27 pm »

I think that stupid-ass flailing of a retort did more to damage the ship than the rushed ending.

In fact, considering Nick actually authorized the ship at all, and the creators supposedly wanted to explore it at all...

WHY NOT ASK THE EXECS IF THEY COULD EXPLORE IT BEFORE THE END OF THE F***ING SERIES?!
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That bastard formerly known as mike50333
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« Reply #814 on: Feb 06, 2015 08:19 pm »

If the series ended with Wu and Mako going to the spirit world, or Wu and Mako kissing or making innuendos, how would've people reacted ?

Uhh...I would have had the same reaction has I did to Korrasami. Why would my reaction be any different? Neither relationship hinted at romance.

Maybe you were watching it with heterolenses ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Those pesky hetero-lenses...

Clearly that is the real issue here. I need to get me some non-hetero-lenses so I can watch the show the way Bryke intended.



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Loopy
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« Reply #815 on: Feb 06, 2015 10:39 pm »

I think this is a good indicator of how a single un-adressed ship can ruin the ending.
If the series ended with Wu and Mako going to the spirit world, or Wu and Mako kissing or making innuendos, how would've people reacted ?

Why would the Legend of Korra end with Wu and Mako walking off into the sunset together?

It's bad enough Korra sunset'd with someone who wasn't introduced until episode 4, but shoving her aside so that Mister Episode 2 and Mister Season 4 could steal the final scene would be awful.
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The_Xov
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« Reply #816 on: Feb 06, 2015 11:31 pm »

I think this is a good indicator of how a single un-adressed ship can ruin the ending.
If the series ended with Wu and Mako going to the spirit world, or Wu and Mako kissing or making innuendos, how would've people reacted ?

Why would the Legend of Korra end with Wu and Mako walking off into the sunset together?

It's bad enough Korra sunset'd with someone who wasn't introduced until episode 4, but shoving her aside so that Mister Episode 2 and Mister Season 4 could steal the final scene would be awful.
I wouldn't put it past them.  In fact, I'm amazed how much they didnt decide to do that, given they value progressiveness above good story telling as if they're mutually exclusive.
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #817 on: Feb 07, 2015 03:23 am »

I think this is a good indicator of how a single un-adressed ship can ruin the ending.
If the series ended with Wu and Mako going to the spirit world, or Wu and Mako kissing or making innuendos, how would've people reacted ?

Why would the Legend of Korra end with Wu and Mako walking off into the sunset together?

It's bad enough Korra sunset'd with someone who wasn't introduced until episode 4, but shoving her aside so that Mister Episode 2 and Mister Season 4 could steal the final scene would be awful.

Well, Wuko got more hints in it than Kaatang or Maiko combined if I listen to the fans, so a larger portion of the fandom will likely be "well, that had hints at least".
jk, it would sucks badly and makes baby seals cry.
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Old School
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« Reply #818 on: Feb 08, 2015 12:35 am »

I think this is a good indicator of how a single un-adressed ship can ruin the ending.
If the series ended with Wu and Mako going to the spirit world, or Wu and Mako kissing or making innuendos, how would've people reacted ?

Why would the Legend of Korra end with Wu and Mako walking off into the sunset together?

It's bad enough Korra sunset'd with someone who wasn't introduced until episode 4, but shoving her aside so that Mister Episode 2 and Mister Season 4 could steal the final scene would be awful.

Korra's story ended in Book 2 anyway.



Wuko is the greatest love story never told.
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Yong Wing
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« Reply #819 on: Feb 13, 2015 12:37 am »

Wuko is the greatest love story never told.

 Cheesy YES!! I need to share this on Facebook.
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Funkybender
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« Reply #820 on: Feb 13, 2015 09:28 am »

I think this is a good indicator of how a single un-adressed ship can ruin the ending.
If the series ended with Wu and Mako going to the spirit world, or Wu and Mako kissing or making innuendos, how would've people reacted ?

As the final scene in the entire series? I'd be very unhappy. It would be even more irrelevant than Korrasami (for those who disliked the ending). At least the last scene included Korra; if she were cut out of it, there would have been riots on internet.

If the series ended with Wu and Mako going to the spirit world, or Wu and Mako kissing or making innuendos, how would've people reacted ?

Uhh...I would have had the same reaction has I did to Korrasami. Why would my reaction be any different? Neither relationship hinted at romance.

Maybe you were watching it with heterolenses ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I was wearing acelenses. Does that make me legally blind?

I think that stupid-ass flailing of a retort did more to damage the ship than the rushed ending.

In fact, considering Nick actually authorized the ship at all, and the creators supposedly wanted to explore it at all...

WHY NOT ASK THE EXECS IF THEY COULD EXPLORE IT BEFORE THE END OF THE F***ING SERIES?!

To play the Devil's Advocate, maybe they were afraid of losing more support from Nick or getting canned if they pushed the envelope that hard? Violence is easier to show to children than non-hetero pairings of any type, so it's not an unreasonable fear.
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« Reply #821 on: Feb 13, 2015 05:51 pm »

That very well may be, but it was the writers that chose not to fully develop the relationships between the characters, platonic or otherwise.
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Spiritwhisperer
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« Reply #822 on: Feb 13, 2015 07:22 pm »

That very well may be, but it was the writers that chose not to fully develop the relationships between the characters, platonic or otherwise.

I wrote a rant on my tumblr a while ago how - for example - they could have done more for Asami with relatively small tweaks, sometimes simply by giving her other characters' dialogue, such as cutting out Iroh's appearance in 311 (Korra going into the spirit world but not finding anyone, and then leaving), and giving large parts of his dialogue to Asami instead.

I actually got support from both Makorra and Korrasami shippers on that post.

Also, they shouldn't have given Mako's concerned looms such incessant camerafocus while Asami is standing in backgrounds with dazed and confused looks.
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Funkybender
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« Reply #823 on: Feb 14, 2015 05:17 pm »

That very well may be, but it was the writers that chose not to fully develop the relationships between the characters, platonic or otherwise.

Right, the lack of focus on Asami and the paltry development at best of her relationship with Korra is on them. I'm proposing a possible explanation for why the pairing feels rushed and underdeveloped.


I wrote a rant on my tumblr a while ago how - for example - they could have done more for Asami with relatively small tweaks, sometimes simply by giving her other characters' dialogue, such as cutting out Iroh's appearance in 311 (Korra going into the spirit world but not finding anyone, and then leaving), and giving large parts of his dialogue to Asami instead.

I actually got support from both Makorra and Korrasami shippers on that post.

Also, they shouldn't have given Mako's concerned looms such incessant camerafocus while Asami is standing in backgrounds with dazed and confused looks.

I think that is something everyone can agree on regardless of ship preference. Asami and Mako need not be romantically attached to Korra to be good characters. The problem is that aside from "engineer" and "estranged father," almost every other facet of her character is dependent on Korra.
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« Reply #824 on: Feb 14, 2015 05:59 pm »

Right, the lack of focus on Asami and the paltry development at best of her relationship with Korra is on them. I'm proposing a possible explanation for why the pairing feels rushed and underdeveloped.

I think the simple explanation is

1. REPRESENTATION!!!

2. Korra and Asami's relationship is the token romance of the series (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TokenRomance).

It has no relation to the story. It can be taken out and nothing would change, and it only seems to be there to give two major characters a relationship to end the series with.

Basically the pairing feels rushed and underdeveloped because no effort was given to it to begin with. It was just included because some sort of romance for the main character is expected and good publicity for REPRESENTATION!!! just made Korrasami an easy choice for the obligatory romance.
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