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Question: Rate This Episode:
10 - 10 (8.1%)
9 - 5 (4.1%)
8 - 14 (11.4%)
7 - 18 (14.6%)
6 - 24 (19.5%)
5 - 11 (8.9%)
4 - 12 (9.8%)
3 - 9 (7.3%)
2 - 3 (2.4%)
1 - 17 (13.8%)
Total Voters: 123

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Author Topic: [408] Remembrances  (Read 15374 times)
soul truth
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« Reply #275 on: Nov 25, 2014 06:07 pm »

How can this episode be compared to The Ember Island Players? That episode gave us an introspective third person perspective at what the main cast thought of themselves that contrasted with how their actions were perceived in the present.

In this episode, everyone basically said, "So... A lot of stuff happened and I'm fine with it all."
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Ikkin
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« Reply #276 on: Nov 25, 2014 08:38 pm »

But she's referencing Toph, who basically threw the Eastern equivalent of "vanitas vanitatem omnia vanitas" at her.  =P  Toph's whole thing was "nothing you [generic] do matters in the grander scheme of things;" Korra was just applying that to her own experience.

Then why was Korra so focused on how she "botched" the Spirit Portal situation? She said absolutely nothing about the generic circumstances that made her situation worse, only that how she made everything worse... Again, if Korra has problems with the world in this scene, then I don't know why she is using first person propositions 9 times out of 10, especially since she has quite an experience with other people being stupid.

Because all of the evidence she can think of to prove her thesis that nothing that one does matters involves herself since she knows her own story better than anything else?

It's pretty clear that her issue is less "I'm no good at this" and more "no matter what I do, nothing changes" though.  She recognizes the good things she did when Asami mentions them, but she's convinced that the world was just as messed up afterwards regardless.
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Child of the Elements - A look at Korra's childhood with the Order of the White Lotus. (Complete)
Molra
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« Reply #277 on: Nov 25, 2014 09:48 pm »

But she's referencing Toph, who basically threw the Eastern equivalent of "vanitas vanitatem omnia vanitas" at her.  =P  Toph's whole thing was "nothing you [generic] do matters in the grander scheme of things;" Korra was just applying that to her own experience.

Then why was Korra so focused on how she "botched" the Spirit Portal situation? She said absolutely nothing about the generic circumstances that made her situation worse, only that how she made everything worse... Again, if Korra has problems with the world in this scene, then I don't know why she is using first person propositions 9 times out of 10, especially since she has quite an experience with other people being stupid.

Because all of the evidence she can think of to prove her thesis that nothing that one does matters involves herself since she knows her own story better than anything else?

It's pretty clear that her issue is less "I'm no good at this" and more "no matter what I do, nothing changes" though.  She recognizes the good things she did when Asami mentions them, but she's convinced that the world was just as messed up afterwards regardless.

Agree. It looks like Korra has almost lost faith/hope in mankind - no matter all the good she has done (and others, too), there is always evil. The meaning of that is quite profound, and is part of her depressive state, not completely healed (I don't buy that her speech at the end of her segment in episode 8 "closed the case" - not to mention the Dark Avatar arc). The key for her healing to be complete was also given by Toph: Korra has disconnected herself from those who love her. I guess that not responding to the 3-year letters is part of that. I hope that, during her field trip with Mako, this issue will be addressed again, which might disentangle her residual problem.
« Last Edit: Nov 25, 2014 09:53 pm by Molra » Logged

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AtoMaki
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« Reply #278 on: Nov 26, 2014 04:24 am »

But she's referencing Toph, who basically threw the Eastern equivalent of "vanitas vanitatem omnia vanitas" at her.  =P  Toph's whole thing was "nothing you [generic] do matters in the grander scheme of things;" Korra was just applying that to her own experience.

Then why was Korra so focused on how she "botched" the Spirit Portal situation? She said absolutely nothing about the generic circumstances that made her situation worse, only that how she made everything worse... Again, if Korra has problems with the world in this scene, then I don't know why she is using first person propositions 9 times out of 10, especially since she has quite an experience with other people being stupid.

Because all of the evidence she can think of to prove her thesis that nothing that one does matters involves herself since she knows her own story better than anything else?

Tarrlok was her story too, yet the guy wasn't even mentioned. Same with Raiko. Hell, Raiko would have been the perfect example of the world spitting in Korra's face.

It's pretty clear that her issue is less "I'm no good at this" and more "no matter what I do, nothing changes" though.

Uh... But Korra admitted that her actions had changed the world... to the worse.

And if Korra really doesn't have a problem with how she handles her stuff, then why did Tenzin come out and told her that she had improved a lot?
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Koksor
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« Reply #279 on: Nov 26, 2014 10:48 pm »

I think it's perfectly fair that if someone says something that is negative and non constructive about Korra, how she's the worst avatar ever. They do deserve to be temporarily banned from just Korra discussions. If they want to idolize ATLA, then go to the ATLA section.

Uhhh...Man, I was talking about this episode, not about ATLA...
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ThaiOzai
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« Reply #280 on: Nov 27, 2014 05:47 pm »


Uh... But Korra admitted that her actions had changed the world... to the worse.


She was wrong, she was just caught up in the throes of self-doubt. Defeating Amon and the Equalists let to positive change in Republic City. Defeating Unavaatu saved the world from 10,000 years of darkness. Opening the Spirit Portals brought back the Air Nation. While that may have also brought back Zaheer, in my book that decision still yielded a net positive.
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JuDee
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« Reply #281 on: Nov 28, 2014 04:00 am »

I found Tenzin's 'wise words' a bit... jarring. After Korra contemplates how the world is always moving out of balance, it felt like he glorified self-centered-ness by making an ultimatum that says "oh screw that, as an individual you're improving anyway."
Hm :/

Btw Varrick's story was funny, love how they edited Bolin's face into Korra's giant spirit lel.
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Ikkin
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« Reply #282 on: Nov 28, 2014 07:16 am »

Because all of the evidence she can think of to prove her thesis that nothing that one does matters involves herself since she knows her own story better than anything else?

Tarrlok was her story too, yet the guy wasn't even mentioned. Same with Raiko. Hell, Raiko would have been the perfect example of the world spitting in Korra's face.

Yeah, but Korra couldn't pay too much attention to Tarrlok, because in that case, there was long-term, lasting change.  =P


Quote
It's pretty clear that her issue is less "I'm no good at this" and more "no matter what I do, nothing changes" though.

Uh... But Korra admitted that her actions had changed the world... to the worse.

And if Korra really doesn't have a problem with how she handles her stuff, then why did Tenzin come out and told her that she had improved a lot?

Because Tenzin's point was that, while human endeavors might feel futile, you can always make yourself better in the process.


I found Tenzin's 'wise words' a bit... jarring. After Korra contemplates how the world is always moving out of balance, it felt like he glorified self-centered-ness by making an ultimatum that says "oh screw that, as an individual you're improving anyway."
Hm :/

Ironically, I think he's meant to be undercutting a certain degree of self-centeredness on Korra's part -- she believes the only change that matters is worldwide change in the long run, and what he's saying is that internal change can be just as important because regardless of whether the world stays fixed, you'll always be able to do more good the next time if you learn from what happened.
« Last Edit: Nov 28, 2014 07:24 am by Ikkin » Logged

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Child of the Elements - A look at Korra's childhood with the Order of the White Lotus. (Complete)
JuDee
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« Reply #283 on: Dec 01, 2014 02:36 am »

I found Tenzin's 'wise words' a bit... jarring. After Korra contemplates how the world is always moving out of balance, it felt like he glorified self-centered-ness by making an ultimatum that says "oh screw that, as an individual you're improving anyway."
Hm :/

Ironically, I think he's meant to be undercutting a certain degree of self-centeredness on Korra's part -- she believes the only change that matters is worldwide change in the long run, and what he's saying is that internal change can be just as important because regardless of whether the world stays fixed, you'll always be able to do more good the next time if you learn from what happened.
Interesting. Why do you see that implying "the only change that matters is the worldwide change in the long run" is an act of self-centrism? I would rather see it as a start of depression rather than self-centrism.
Your interpretation of Tenzin's words are truly understandable, but like me, maybe not everyone would see it in such a positive light from the first run. For me that sentence made Tenzin's character (seem) less.... sophisticated, or... wise... than he actually was.

Thing is, he keeps talking about how Korra has grown, and that's also understandable as the context was he's trying to cheer Korra up. But I think it would be a bit better if he addressed her concerns as well by talking more about what would the future hold amidst such a homo homini lupus world, albeit only from his perspective.
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Ikkin
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« Reply #284 on: Dec 01, 2014 07:45 am »

Interesting. Why do you see that implying "the only change that matters is the worldwide change in the long run" is an act of self-centrism? I would rather see it as a start of depression rather than self-centrism.
Your interpretation of Tenzin's words are truly understandable, but like me, maybe not everyone would see it in such a positive light from the first run. For me that sentence made Tenzin's character (seem) less.... sophisticated, or... wise... than he actually was.

Thing is, he keeps talking about how Korra has grown, and that's also understandable as the context was he's trying to cheer Korra up. But I think it would be a bit better if he addressed her concerns as well by talking more about what would the future hold amidst such a homo homini lupus world, albeit only from his perspective.

Maybe "self-centered" isn't the right word -- it's more that believing that one can fix the world by oneself is the same strain of ego-centric grandiosity that drove Tarrlok, Amon, Unalaq, Zaheer, and Kuvira.  Tenzin's reminding Korra to "be the change you wish to see in the world," because if you don't change yourself first, there's no way you can hope to change the world for the better.

It also seems like Tenzin can't really address Korra's concerns about the future because he still thinks that she should be patient and wait to recover instead of taking the risks necessary to heal.  >_>;
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Prince Lu Ten
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« Reply #285 on: Dec 01, 2014 01:16 pm »

After a rewatch thought this episode is probably a 6.  I still absolutely love the Varrick parts but the first 2 segments just don't really hold up.

Damn you Nickelodeon.
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Loopy
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« Reply #286 on: Dec 05, 2014 05:42 pm »

Mako's segment didn't have enough MST3King. I needed more jokes and snide commentary! The snark we got was good, though, and I appreciate the return of the cousin guy with Beast Boy's voice.

Korra's segment was everything wrong with clipshows, a straightforward summary without purpose.

Varrick's segment was what this whole episode should have been.

Nick is lacking in honor to make this episode necessary. I appreciate that the storytelling team tried their best.


I liked this episode and I think the reason why people are pissed off is because Bryke has the guts to serendipitously say "F-You" to the haters of Korra in the subtext of this episode. I definitely feel that kind of vibe in the Mako side story....

Honestly, I got the opposite impression, that they were playfully acknowledging the criticism that had reached their ears. It's not like the Katara line in 410, which was a direct attempt at a counterpoint to a specific criticism.


Constructive criticism (like Loopy and a few others provide)? More than welcome.

Thanks. And I agree with your larger points, too.
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Lunar_Prodigy
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« Reply #287 on: Dec 05, 2014 05:50 pm »

I liked this episode and I think the reason why people are pissed off is because Bryke has the guts to serendipitously say "F-You" to the haters of Korra in the subtext of this episode. I definitely feel that kind of vibe in the Mako side story....

Honestly, I got the opposite impression, that they were playfully acknowledging the criticism that had reached their ears. It's not like the Katara line in 410, which was a direct attempt at a counterpoint to a specific criticism.


I just keep remembering the line, "It's a mover, don't over think it." It spoke volumes for several of the over critical issues that people have had. Since I am the kind of person that tries to avoid analyzing and criticizing shows to death and instead just enjoy things, I absolutely loved that line. Things don't necessarily have to make sense or be morally acceptable or anything like that, as long as it is enjoyable to watch. As fans we are just along for the ride and should be willing to try and enjoy it whatever way it goes.
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Keeper of Yue's "You didn't protect me" Sokka's "She's the moon, she flies by herself"
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« Reply #288 on: Dec 05, 2014 06:05 pm »

Again, I took it the opposite way. Varrick's story really was terrible, Bolin (our sympathetic POV character) was confounded by it, and the rest of the audience was just, "LOL, criticism."

It seemed like perfect acknowledgement of someone who sees the poor quality in a story (be it an Avatar episode, a Michael Bay movie, a "classic" novel that isn't really that good, etc) and is treated as a nutcase by people who refuse to take the story seriously. No one was villainized, but it was a sympathetic treatment of someone who sees that the Emperor has no clothes.
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Colonel_Brian
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« Reply #289 on: Dec 05, 2014 06:16 pm »

I took it that way. I thought it was the Bryke's wayof acknowledging the craziness that was the season two finale. It was a sort of "don't think about it too hard" thing. And yes, Bolin was the only sane man in that group, which I think works for his character.
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Yong Wing
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« Reply #290 on: Dec 12, 2014 11:14 am »

Okay, so... I've caught up on the show with my girlfriend. We kinda told each other we were not to watch the show without one another present, and with our hectic schedules, it was kind of difficult coming together.

Anywho, so we finally watched the clip-show episode that everyone's been complaining about.

Honestly.... I liked it.

Yeah, I'm the guy who was irritated by "The Ember Island Players" from Avatar: The Last Airbender, yet an episode that is basically a long clip-show doesn't really bother me much. Still trying to figure out why.
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« Reply #291 on: Dec 12, 2014 10:36 pm »

Actually I thought Mako's was the funniest due to that peanut gallery of Wu, the cousin, and Granny chiming in all the time.

Korra's was pretty straightforward but I liked the reflection. I disagree about it not having purpose, I thought the purpose was clear with Korra verbally confirming that she's been taking mostly the wrong things to heart in just the frustration that there's always another threat around the corner and just giving her positive contributions mere lip service.

Though Varrick's had the best joke with my longest laughs with the villain conference call lol.


Uh... But Korra admitted that her actions had changed the world... to the worse.


She was wrong, she was just caught up in the throes of self-doubt. Defeating Amon and the Equalists let to positive change in Republic City. Defeating Unavaatu saved the world from 10,000 years of darkness. Opening the Spirit Portals brought back the Air Nation. While that may have also brought back Zaheer, in my book that decision still yielded a net positive.

Exactly.  Korra was just still caught up in zoning in on how another bad thing would happen following each time when she thought she had finally set something right. The others rightly stressed to her the good things that happened directly from her actions before some other crazy threat arrived and that as long as she takes the positives from each encounter to grow and learn and keep bettering herself for the next time that that's good and just as important.

Pretty much this:
she believes the only change that matters is worldwide change in the long run, and what he's saying is that internal change can be just as important because regardless of whether the world stays fixed, you'll always be able to do more good the next time if you learn from what happened.

But she's referencing Toph, who basically threw the Eastern equivalent of "vanitas vanitatem omnia vanitas" at her.  =P  Toph's whole thing was "nothing you [generic] do matters in the grander scheme of things;" Korra was just applying that to her own experience.

Then why was Korra so focused on how she "botched" the Spirit Portal situation? She said absolutely nothing about the generic circumstances that made her situation worse, only that how she made everything worse... Again, if Korra has problems with the world in this scene, then I don't know why she is using first person propositions 9 times out of 10, especially since she has quite an experience with other people being stupid.

Because all of the evidence she can think of to prove her thesis that nothing that one does matters involves herself since she knows her own story better than anything else?

It's pretty clear that her issue is less "I'm no good at this" and more "no matter what I do, nothing changes" though.  She recognizes the good things she did when Asami mentions them, but she's convinced that the world was just as messed up afterwards regardless.

Agreed.
« Last Edit: Dec 12, 2014 10:43 pm by DangerMouseDM » Logged
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« Reply #292 on: Feb 27, 2015 12:07 pm »

After looking back I think that this episode should have been the first one. Also instead of a ton of clips from other episodes, perhaps a good portion of the episode could've been done in the style of Sokka's story in Jet. It could also have set up for what to expect in season 4, plus maybe some clips from the original series, like have Kuvira making a comparison to herself and Chin, finding some validation in what he was doing. Also some other callbacks such as perhaps using the techniques the Dai Li used, such as brainwashing people to do what they wanted.
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Furudo Erika
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« Reply #293 on: Feb 27, 2015 12:13 pm »

Oh, yeah! I said something like that in another thread, that would've been so much better than a clip-show.
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« Reply #294 on: Feb 27, 2015 12:52 pm »

After looking back I think that this episode should have been the first one. Also instead of a ton of clips from other episodes, perhaps a good portion of the episode could've been done in the style of Sokka's story in Jet. It could also have set up for what to expect in season 4, plus maybe some clips from the original series, like have Kuvira making a comparison to herself and Chin, finding some validation in what he was doing. Also some other callbacks such as perhaps using the techniques the Dai Li used, such as brainwashing people to do what they wanted.

Clips of ATLA would've been awesome. But we can say they should have done this and they should have done that as much as we want, that won't change it. They got stuck having to do a clip show. The first two thirds of it stink like every clip show in the history of ever.

But, Varrick has these mystical abilities to make everything better and we see him doing just that. For me, the episode was well worth it just for Varrick's story.
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« Reply #295 on: Feb 27, 2015 01:20 pm »

Would they have had to do a clip show if they had done the method I had written? Surely non-moving drawings in a monochromatic color scheme would have been much cheaper than a regular episode, plus a few clips interspersed throughout would have been great, plus it could have been used to set up Kuvira's agenda.
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« Reply #296 on: Feb 27, 2015 02:00 pm »

Would they have had to do a clip show if they had done the method I had written? Surely non-moving drawings in a monochromatic color scheme would have been much cheaper than a regular episode, plus a few clips interspersed throughout would have been great, plus it could have been used to set up Kuvira's agenda.

Yes, seems like Bryke weren't really creative with it and just jumped at a clip-show, unless there's additional information that we don't know about.
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Lunar_Prodigy
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« Reply #297 on: Feb 27, 2015 03:31 pm »

Would they have had to do a clip show if they had done the method I had written? Surely non-moving drawings in a monochromatic color scheme would have been much cheaper than a regular episode, plus a few clips interspersed throughout would have been great, plus it could have been used to set up Kuvira's agenda.

An entire episode of that? I am not so sure that would work. I think that would get old quick just like a clip show.

Yes, seems like Bryke weren't really creative with it and just jumped at a clip-show, unless there's additional information that we don't know about.

There probably is stuff we weren't informed of. There is no way to be sure we have all the information.
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Keeper of Yue's "You didn't protect me" Sokka's "She's the moon, she flies by herself"
and Wan Shi Tong's understanding of the radio being "tiny men in boxes"
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« Reply #298 on: Feb 27, 2015 03:46 pm »

The reason we have a clip show to begin with was because they didn't have much of a budget. Making new images, even non-moving monochromatic color ones, would still require more money to make those new images.

That kind of defeats the purpose of why they had to do a clip show.
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« Reply #299 on: Feb 27, 2015 04:47 pm »

I can't imagine that several non-moving drawings would come close to the budget of a regular episode. Surely they could have stretched it a little. Also they didn't need to put a clip show in the middle of the season as that disrupts the flow of the storyline, it could have been done at the beginning and then jump right into the story afterwards.
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