AvatarSpirit.Net
Jun 25, 2019 06:25 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
ASN Mainsite: AvatarSpirit.net
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Poll
Question: Rate This Episode:
10 - 49 (47.1%)
9 - 23 (22.1%)
8 - 14 (13.5%)
7 - 10 (9.6%)
6 - 4 (3.8%)
5 - 2 (1.9%)
4 - 1 (1%)
3 - 1 (1%)
2 - 0 (0%)
1 - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 104

Pages: « previous page next page »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: [406] The Battle of Zaofu  (Read 58191 times)
Fieryfurnace
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 148


Just passin' through


« Reply #550 on: Nov 10, 2014 03:04 pm »

Where did that child soldier idea come from anyway? Su's children are obviously adults, and i doubt she would have forced her sons to come if they didn't want to. If they're 'child soldiers' then almost every character in this show would be. The only characters in this universe that i really consider 'child soldiers' are the Gaang during ATLA. (They were all under 16, fighting in a war. So yeah.)
Logged
nightingale
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 754


This duality in me, ice and fire within.


« Reply #551 on: Nov 10, 2014 03:23 pm »

Where did that child soldier idea come from anyway? Su's children are obviously adults, and i doubt she would have forced her sons to come if they didn't want to. If they're 'child soldiers' then almost every character in this show would be. The only characters in this universe that i really consider 'child soldiers' are the Gaang during ATLA. (They were all under 16, fighting in a war. So yeah.)

People just want to throw crap at Suyin. That's all', because really she never used child soldiers. My only complaint is that she put her children in the line of fire. If I were a father I wouldn't do it, but even then I can understand why she did it.
Logged

But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow... I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.

-Puddleglum, The Silver Chair
fraroc
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 410


« Reply #552 on: Nov 10, 2014 05:11 pm »

I just love they skimmed over Su Yin's child soldier truce breaking assassination plot. Even Korra admitted Kuvira was within her rights but they have to fight because lol!plot. And how much you wanna bet it isn't mentioned again? They sure as heck didn't tell Tenzin.

Wing and Wei were approx 16 in Book 3. Now what is 16+3? NINETEEN. They're NOT child soldiers, when you're 19 in real life, you can serve in the military, at least in the US.
Logged
The Mug Mugger
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 764


Adult Toph is HAWT!


« Reply #553 on: Nov 10, 2014 05:13 pm »

I don't think Omninaut is trying to argue the twin's age, but that they're her children and he/she feels that it's wrong for Suyin to take them to help kill someone.
Logged
luvavatar
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 7900


« Reply #554 on: Nov 10, 2014 05:32 pm »

So what if they're her children? She should be okay with bringing someone else's adult sons on a mission and not her own? She gets flack for bringing two grown men on a co-op stealth mission, but nobody bats an eye at Hakoda and Tyro bringing their young teenagers into battle with them? That's a bit of a double standard.
Logged
WarriorMind556
Can't Create New Topics
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1656


« Reply #555 on: Nov 10, 2014 05:34 pm »

If your home is threatned, it is suddenly wrong to assist your mother to save it? Again child soldiers(as in child soldiers in Uganda) are FORCED.
Logged
Fire Rose
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 4003


« Reply #556 on: Nov 10, 2014 05:46 pm »

So what if they're her children? She should be okay with bringing someone else's adult sons on a mission and not her own? She gets flack for bringing two grown men on a co-op stealth mission, but nobody bats an eye at Hakoda and Tyro bringing their young teenagers into battle with them? That's a bit of a double standard.

It kind of is double standard. I mean, Sokka was 16 (which at the time you were considered an adult that could make their own decision) and Wei and Wing are at least 18-20 years old (the new age for being an adult). I am still falling to see what Omimnut is arguing here. The twins are adult that chose to fight back with their mother. They are not child soldiers so please stop saying that.

Su is Book 4's Mako. Some people are now looking for the craziest reasons (that don't make sense) to dislike one character. 
Logged
Omninaut
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 510


Heil das Mutterreich über alles!


« Reply #557 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:06 pm »

When her countrymen were being ravaged by bandits and starved of all necessity, Su Yin closed herself off in her private paradise; built on criminal funds she gained after escaping justice due to to cronyism. And as the Earth Kingdom burned while Su Yin lay back sipping Kalenutsco, Kuvira answered the call of the people that Su Yin callously ignored.

Kuvira, along with the best and brightest of Zao Fu who all left Su Yin by choice, then purged the bandits and established order, but rather than return to the status quo of the Earth Queen, she advanced the states, giving railines, running water, satomobiles and a better quality of life for the people, all while showing mercy by  reforming the bandits who were victims of circumstance.

And then rather than hand over the states who were legally and consensually signed over to her by contract to Wu,the pompous noble who had earned nothing and done nothing for the Kingdom, she instead did what was best for her people. Despite the protests of the Western Powers who were poised to take over the Earth Kingdom (and its ore)via Advisers and a Puppet Monarch who admitted he wouldn’t do anything for the country.

And then when Su Yin, decided to ignore the government, hoarding her advanced technology and wealth in her self-made hypocritical matriarchy, Kuvira still showed mercy; rather than just taking down the insurrection she instead offered a chance for peaceful deferment to the government. Even the Avatar, who Su Yin in her bloodthirst had wished to destroy the government forces and Kuvira, listened to reason and set up a truce. A truce that was broken when Su Yin snuck into Kuvira’s camp in the dead of night like coward and tried to kill Kuvira in cold blood with her own two children no less.

And even THEN Kuvira’s shows mercy, with this very clear capital offense not being given the death penalty.

Su Yin is a wealthy, self-appointed criminal matriarch who thinks herself above the law and attempted to murder a head of state she raised since she was eight with her own two children.
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2014 06:08 pm by Omninaut » Logged


古維拉萬歲!

We can lay the groundwork for people to choose their own greatness.
SpiritWatcher
Banned Member
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1173

Tank-kun


« Reply #558 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:11 pm »

^Lol western powers. The irony is hilarious.

Ok Omninaut, enjoy your anthem and praise Kuvira great woman of steel, I won't argue with you, I don't really think there is a point in doing so at this point.
Logged



I am a spirit. An adrift soul ever strayed. Heaven lost I watch.

Keeper of the Avatarverse scientific units Varricks (for energy I guess) and Zhu
Omninaut
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 510


Heil das Mutterreich über alles!


« Reply #559 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:20 pm »

Well given you've said the word "commie" multiple times, some good old fashioned McCarthyism seems right up your alley.
Logged


古維拉萬歲!

We can lay the groundwork for people to choose their own greatness.
WarriorMind556
Can't Create New Topics
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1656


« Reply #560 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:28 pm »

The problem is there is no definite proof of Kuvira's popularity in the Earth Empire. We can say she is super popular by looking at her supporters but say that she is using coercion by proof of the prison camps, "other ways", and "forcing people to join her army".

The other problem is we do not know how good Raiko's advisors are for Wu's reign.

Either way Zafou was NEVER part of the "Earth Empire".

Logged
luvavatar
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 7900


« Reply #561 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:32 pm »

Su was wrong for not stepping when she could've, but that doesn't make Kuvira right. She has no intention of "sharing the wealth", she wants it for HER empire. The most innovative city in the world with some of the most intelligent people around, I think she wants them for what they can do for HER, not for what they can do for their fellow man.
Logged
Omninaut
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 510


Heil das Mutterreich über alles!


« Reply #562 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:37 pm »

The problem is there is no definite proof of Kuvira's popularity in the Earth Empire. We can say she is super popular by looking at her supporters but say that she is using coercion by proof of the prison camps, "other ways", and "forcing people to join her army".

The other problem is we do not know how good Raiko's advisors are for Wu's reign.

Either way Zafou was NEVER part of the "Earth Empire".




Looking at the map, ZF is within the territory of two Earth States, earth States that signed loyalty to Kuvira.





Su was wrong for not stepping when she could've, but that doesn't make Kuvira right. She has no intention of "sharing the wealth", she wants it for HER empire. The most innovative city in the world with some of the most intelligent people around, I think she wants them for what they can do for HER, not for what they can do for their fellow man.

Kuvira has no other motives besides the Unification of the Empire. It's not like she's paying money on fancy food and spa dates. And given all the most intelligent and innovative of the city already left Su for Kuvira, Yin basically only rules the people who didnt have enough agency to just leave.
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2014 06:38 pm by Omninaut » Logged


古維拉萬歲!

We can lay the groundwork for people to choose their own greatness.
WarriorMind556
Can't Create New Topics
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1656


« Reply #563 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:41 pm »


Looking at the map, ZF is within the territory of two Earth States, earth States that signed loyalty to Kuvira.
No it isn't. Zafou is its own state. Kuvira even admitted herself. "Why should I treat it like any other state"
Logged
Spiritwhisperer
Forum Moderator
Never Gonna Give Yue Up
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3432



« Reply #564 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:41 pm »



I'm actually seeing a red line around the location of Zao Fu, indicating it's entirely a state of its own. That same shape was still left open on Kuvira's puzzle map as well.
Logged

"In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.”
- Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Omninaut
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 510


Heil das Mutterreich über alles!


« Reply #565 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:42 pm »

Zaofu doesnt have a red line, it's just land bought within the borders of that bannada shaped state that has the bay and the big pointy state in the center.
Logged


古維拉萬歲!

We can lay the groundwork for people to choose their own greatness.
SpiritWatcher
Banned Member
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1173

Tank-kun


« Reply #566 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:42 pm »

lol, scream McCarthyism at anyone who correctly identifies a problem. I don't know how many users I have already heard on this forum talk about Suyin "hoarding" or being greedy.

It doesn't matter whether its called McCarthyism or not, Kuvira directly stated the beliefs of communism right to Korra's face. Anyone who thinks she is remotely in the right after all she has done and stated in this show clearly adhere to the exact ideals she does, which is to say communism.

Its not McCarthyism (and this isn't really directed at you, but everyone), its the hard cold facts. Amon might have been the revolutionary form of communism (taking place in a capitalist nation), Kuvira is the military form of communism. Its very fitting for the type of time period LoK is set in.
Logged



I am a spirit. An adrift soul ever strayed. Heaven lost I watch.

Keeper of the Avatarverse scientific units Varricks (for energy I guess) and Zhu
WarriorMind556
Can't Create New Topics
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1656


« Reply #567 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:49 pm »

Zaofu doesnt have a red line, it's just land bought within the borders of that bannada shaped state that has the bay and the big pointy state in the center.
Yes because Avatar maps are the most accurate and are immune to the fact Kuvira literaly said it was a state.

Kuvira a communist? Debatable. More like Fascism or Corporatism or State-Capitalism since most of her original supporters were rich Zaofu citizens. More of a Chian-Kai Shek than a Mao.
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2014 06:51 pm by WarriorMind556 » Logged
Omninaut
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 510


Heil das Mutterreich über alles!


« Reply #568 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:53 pm »

lol, scream McCarthyism at anyone who correctly identifies a problem. I don't know how many users I have already heard on this forum talk about Suyin "hoarding" or being greedy.

It doesn't matter whether its called McCarthyism or not, Kuvira directly stated the beliefs of communism right to Korra's face. Anyone who thinks she is remotely in the right after all she has done and stated in this show clearly adhere to the exact ideals she does, which is to say communism.

Its not McCarthyism (and this isn't really directed at you, but everyone), its the hard cold facts. Amon might have been the revolutionary form of communism (taking place in a capitalist nation), Kuvira is the military form of communism. Its very fitting for the type of time period LoK is set in.

I'm more going on the fact you're using

>That's communist

In a pejorative sense to end debates. It's immature namecalling. You don't see me sardonically posting Ayn Rand or Cliven Bundy references. I never linked you to Sudden Broach ebooks or called you a randroid. So I'd prefer the same respect given to me instead of blanket tossing around of words like you know what they mean.


Zaofu doesnt have a red line, it's just land bought within the borders of that bannada shaped state that has the bay and the big pointy state in the center.
Yes because Avatar maps are the most accurate and are immune to the fact Kuvira literaly said it was a state.

Kuvira a communist? Debatable. More like Fascism or Corporatism or State-Capitalism since most of her original supporters were rich Zaofu citizens. More of a Chian-Kai Shek than a Mao.


If ZF was it's own polity and not private property it would have it's own borders. It's more akin to Disneyland or Skywalker Ranch

Please do not quote images without removing the img tags ~ SpWh
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2014 07:11 pm by Spiritwhisperer » Logged


古維拉萬歲!

We can lay the groundwork for people to choose their own greatness.
Old School
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 7722



« Reply #569 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:56 pm »

Here's a thought: if Su was under the impression that assassinating Kuvira would solve everything, why not go along with the treaty, lure Kuvira into a false sense of security, and take her out when the opportunity presented itself? Hell, if you aren't worried about immediate retaliation, why not try to kill/capture her while she's standing in your living room? Su picked the absolute worst option possible at the worst available opportunity at the expense of everybody involved. No matter what happens to Zaofu from this point on, it's clear that Su shouldn't be anywhere near a leadership role after this.
Logged
ThaiOzai
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 3552


« Reply #570 on: Nov 10, 2014 06:58 pm »

Zaofu doesnt have a red line, it's just land bought within the borders of that bannada shaped state that has the bay and the big pointy state in the center.
Yes because Avatar maps are the most accurate and are immune to the fact Kuvira literaly said it was a state.

Kuvira a communist? Debatable. More like Fascism or Corporatism or State-Capitalism since most of her original supporters were rich Zaofu citizens. More of a Chian-Kai Shek than a Mao.

Kuvira is definitely fascist. Fascist states are defined by authoritarianism, militarism, nationalism, and imperialism. She's definitely the first 3, and arguably the 4th (or at least, she will probably become imperialistic).
Logged
Omninaut
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 510


Heil das Mutterreich über alles!


« Reply #571 on: Nov 10, 2014 07:01 pm »

Here's a thought: if Su was under the impression that assassinating Kuvira would solve everything, why not go along with the treaty, lure Kuvira into a false sense of security, and take her out when the opportunity presented itself? Hell, if you aren't worried about immediate retaliation, why not try to kill/capture her while she's standing in your living room? Su picked the absolute worst option possible at the worst available opportunity at the expense of everybody involved. No matter what happens to Zaofu from this point on, it's clear that Su shouldn't be anywhere near a leadership role after this.
Because like it was said, Su Yin is a coward. She wouldn't risk attacking her head on like like that. it's whys he ganged up one hr 3 on one when she thought she was asleep.


Zaofu doesnt have a red line, it's just land bought within the borders of that bannada shaped state that has the bay and the big pointy state in the center.
Yes because Avatar maps are the most accurate and are immune to the fact Kuvira literaly said it was a state.

Kuvira a communist? Debatable. More like Fascism or Corporatism or State-Capitalism since most of her original supporters were rich Zaofu citizens. More of a Chian-Kai Shek than a Mao.

Kuvira is definitely fascist. Fascist states are defined by authoritarianism, militarism, nationalism, and imperialism. She's definitely the first 3, and arguably the 4th (or at least, she will probably become imperialistic).

As was said before, there is no consensus on what fascism actually is. it's just a buzzword thrown around on Fox news and internet chat rooms. You'd be better off counting how many angels dance on the head of a pin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
Logged


古維拉萬歲!

We can lay the groundwork for people to choose their own greatness.
SpiritWatcher
Banned Member
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1173

Tank-kun


« Reply #572 on: Nov 10, 2014 07:08 pm »

Its not blanket name calling to say her ideology communist. Its calling it what is is based on what she specifically said she planned to do with Zaofu.
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2014 07:10 pm by SpiritWatcher » Logged



I am a spirit. An adrift soul ever strayed. Heaven lost I watch.

Keeper of the Avatarverse scientific units Varricks (for energy I guess) and Zhu
ThaiOzai
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 3552


« Reply #573 on: Nov 10, 2014 07:10 pm »


As was said before, there is no consensus on what fascism actually is. it's just a buzzword thrown around on Fox news and internet chat rooms. You'd be better off counting how many angels dance on the head of a pin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

Without getting into huge technical debates, most equate fascism with Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany. Both of those regimes were highly authoritarian, intensely nationalistic, militaristic, and imperialistic. If your problem is with the word 'fascist', whatever. But Kuvira and her government undeniably have the traits I just listed.
Logged
WarriorMind556
Can't Create New Topics
Never Gonna Give Yue Up

Offline Offline

Posts: 1656


« Reply #574 on: Nov 10, 2014 07:17 pm »

Communist=Universal, International, Radical distribution of wealth, Socially revolutionary, Complete state owned property and production, Doesn't haven't to be dictatorship or militaristic(although it leads to that usually)

Fascist=Nationalism, partial Corporate power and private property, Militaristic, Authoratarian, Social Conservative, although can have somewhat socialistic beliefs, it is often outweighed by foreign policy and social issues(such as simply blaming the Jews or foreign nations and invading them for wealth)

Kuvira seems to fit the Fascist trend since her supporters are both upper and lower class.
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2014 07:19 pm by WarriorMind556 » Logged
Pages: « previous page next page »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines LLC
MySQL | PHP | XHTML | CSS