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Question: Rate This Episode:
10 - 49 (47.1%)
9 - 23 (22.1%)
8 - 14 (13.5%)
7 - 10 (9.6%)
6 - 4 (3.8%)
5 - 2 (1.9%)
4 - 1 (1%)
3 - 1 (1%)
2 - 0 (0%)
1 - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 104

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Author Topic: [406] The Battle of Zaofu  (Read 55695 times)
Spiritwhisperer
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« Reply #525 on: Nov 09, 2014 06:23 pm »

I saw a theory on tumblr that perhaps Kuvira was intending to get Jinora and Opal to intervene. Kuvira took her fair time going to Korra and getting the blades. This way Kuvira can put herself in a better light, while her adversaries were interfering with internal EE bussines and then breaking agreements when she was winning fairly.

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ZippyLittleRat
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« Reply #526 on: Nov 09, 2014 06:27 pm »

I was struck by Zhu Li's display of emotion! Yes she was probably quite frightened, but I think she sounded more vulnerable than she did when almost falling off the train.
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« Reply #527 on: Nov 09, 2014 06:33 pm »

I saw a theory on tumblr that perhaps Kuvira was intending to get Jinora and Opal to intervene. Kuvira took her fair time going to Korra and getting the blades. This way Kuvira can put herself in a better light, while her adversaries were interfering with internal EE bussines and then breaking agreements when she was winning fairly.



Maybe...but it's also standard villain fare to slowly walk up to the helpless hero, prepare to kill them, and get stopped at the last moment.
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Funkybender
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« Reply #528 on: Nov 09, 2014 06:34 pm »

I think that early on in this episode, and throughout Enemy at the Gates, Kuvira might have hoped that Korra would side with her rather than merely stall for time and frustrate Su's plans. That path is a non-option now, but the implications could be interesting, and would only contribute to the theme of Kuvira and Korra being not so different at all.

Good point. Assuming Kuvira's ambition is only going to keep growing, every individual interests her as someone to eventually be subject to her. Just look at how easily she added Zhu Li to the mix when she was shown proper deference. I think after this fight Kuvira has reason to believe Korra will never side with her -- or that even if she did she'd always be a potential threat -- and thus she will be less merciful in the future.

One point that separates Kuvira from the other three antagonists is that she is not opposed to the existence of the Avatar in theory. Amon viewed the Avatar as the embodiment of non-bender disenfranchisement and oppression at the hands of benders, Unalaq wanted to supplant Korra by becoming a dark Avatar, and Zaheer believed the Avatar had become irrelevant and an enemy of true freedom. So far, Kuvira has only opposed Korra when she interferes with her agenda. She had no intentions of killing her and does not appear concerned with Korra's powers unless they are being used against her.

Kuvira probably recognizes that the Avatar can be a powerful force in the world and recognizes Korra's new-found reluctance to engage in conflict. If Korra can be convinced into brokering a settlement between the Earth Empire and its adversaries, that leaves Kuvira with more breathing room, not having to worry about the United Forces on her doorstep.

And the Avatar is still a human. They can be threatened, flattered, inspired, and demoralized. Kuvira might have counted on Korra's ignorance of the world's situation in the past three years to influence her less-aggressive response.

I'd even go so far as to say that a more effective message would be sent by having Korra initially cooperate with Kuvira, like she did with Tarrlok. We'd truly be able to see their similarities and differences.

I saw a theory on tumblr that perhaps Kuvira was intending to get Jinora and Opal to intervene. Kuvira took her fair time going to Korra and getting the blades. This way Kuvira can put herself in a better light, while her adversaries were interfering with internal EE bussines and then breaking agreements when she was winning fairly.

I haven't seen the theory (I don't have a tumblr; do you have a link to the post?) but I completely agree. Kuvira took a defensive stance for most of the fight, preferring to restrain and disarm Korra while dodging her attacks. Only at the climax did she attack in earnest.
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djinn
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« Reply #529 on: Nov 09, 2014 06:34 pm »

I wonder with the spirit vines if the world of Avatar is going to have another industrial revolution?
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Funkybender
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« Reply #530 on: Nov 09, 2014 06:43 pm »

I wonder with the spirit vines if the world of Avatar is going to have another industrial revolution?

I think it's fairly analogous to beginning of the Atomic Age in the 1940s, and I think that might be the theme the writers are trying to explore. Varrick did say that the original idea that prompted work on the Spirit Vines was the prospect of "limitless" clean energy, which is essentially what Leo Szilard and Enrico Fermi wanted to do with nuclear chain reaction, and their first patent was a fission reactor (nuclear waste concerns notwithstanding). The concerns Varrick expressed were shared by Manhattan Project scientists.

If we get a hopeful ending, maybe the peaceful intention of using spirit energy "reactors" will eliminate a lot of the inequality in Republic City. A more cynical interpretation might lead to the potentials of spirit energy going untapped (such as if Kuvira causes mass destruction with this weapon).

I really hope the latter doesn't happen. I think it would be inspirational to see a destructive weapon re-purposed for altruistic purposes. And full disclosure: I'm a strong supporter of nuclear energy and would rather not see it strawmanned.
« Last Edit: Nov 09, 2014 06:46 pm by Funkybender » Logged
ZippyLittleRat
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« Reply #531 on: Nov 09, 2014 06:57 pm »

I think that early on in this episode, and throughout Enemy at the Gates, Kuvira might have hoped that Korra would side with her rather than merely stall for time and frustrate Su's plans. That path is a non-option now, but the implications could be interesting, and would only contribute to the theme of Kuvira and Korra being not so different at all.

Good point. Assuming Kuvira's ambition is only going to keep growing, every individual interests her as someone to eventually be subject to her. Just look at how easily she added Zhu Li to the mix when she was shown proper deference. I think after this fight Kuvira has reason to believe Korra will never side with her -- or that even if she did she'd always be a potential threat -- and thus she will be less merciful in the future.

One point that separates Kuvira from the other three antagonists is that she is not opposed to the existence of the Avatar in theory. Amon viewed the Avatar as the embodiment of non-bender disenfranchisement and oppression at the hands of benders, Unalaq wanted to supplant Korra by becoming a dark Avatar, and Zaheer believed the Avatar had become irrelevant and an enemy of true freedom. So far, Kuvira has only opposed Korra when she interferes with her agenda. She had no intentions of killing her and does not appear concerned with Korra's powers unless they are being used against her.



That is a wonderful observation, and the truth of it is refreshing. Finally, a villain doesn't have "Destroy the Avatar" as priority one on their to-do list!
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« Reply #532 on: Nov 09, 2014 07:00 pm »

I wonder with the spirit vines if the world of Avatar is going to have another industrial revolution?

I think it's fairly analogous to beginning of the Atomic Age in the 1940s, and I think that might be the theme the writers are trying to explore. Varrick did say that the original idea that prompted work on the Spirit Vines was the prospect of "limitless" clean energy, which is essentially what Leo Szilard and Enrico Fermi wanted to do with nuclear chain reaction, and their first patent was a fission reactor (nuclear waste concerns notwithstanding). The concerns Varrick expressed were shared by Manhattan Project scientists.

If we get a hopeful ending, maybe the peaceful intention of using spirit energy "reactors" will eliminate a lot of the inequality in Republic City. A more cynical interpretation might lead to the potentials of spirit energy going untapped (such as if Kuvira causes mass destruction with this weapon).

I really hope the latter doesn't happen. I think it would be inspirational to see a destructive weapon re-purposed for altruistic purposes. And full disclosure: I'm a strong supporter of nuclear energy and would rather not see it strawmanned.

I want to know how they were able to cut away portions of and stabilize the vies!
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Blue Warpath
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« Reply #533 on: Nov 09, 2014 07:01 pm »

You don't sharpen things into blades unless you plan to stab something with them. She was going to kill Korra. This shouldn't even be in doubt.

Maybe she wanted to make Opal and Jinora rush in and break the agreement, dishonouring them and Zoafu further in the eyes of her soldiers? After all, Kuvira won fair and square, and the fact that that the Avatar was pretty pathetic until she went Avatar State, and even then failed, also just makes Kuvira seem more powerful and justified - and, uhhh, well, it meant she had the opportunity where she could go all out since she knew Zoafu wouldn't yield despite the agreement?

Not that I'm not okay with her attempting to murder Korra.

Korra deserves death for murdering her own beautiful hair. And, abandoning the armband that has served her graciously all these years in a river to drown...  
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Emile
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« Reply #534 on: Nov 09, 2014 07:02 pm »


I think part of it is that Kuvira has a unique bending style.  She doesn't fight like an earthbender, OR a metalbender.  She dodges, waits for an opening, puts her opponent off balance, and then doesn't let up.  She reminds me a lot of Toph, minus the overwhelming power.  

........................
I don't think anyone would be able to beat Kuvira's style without some foreknowledge.  Even full strength Korra.  I see people saying that Kuvira doesn't seem dangerous.  Man, she is probably the most unique bender I've seen since Amon.  She basically blood bended Korra with a metal strip on her wrist.  Kuvira's most dangerous ability is her confidence and her creative fighting style.  People aren't ready for that from an earthbender/metalbender.  

Korra will be better off the second time, because she has an idea of how Kuvira bends.  Even then though, Kuvira is a dangerous bender.  Just because she doesn't have some otherwordly bending ability, like bloodbending, spiritbending, or flying, people underestimate her.  People wanna say Korra sucks.  Kuvira made Korra look like she sucked, but Korra was doing good.  It just wasn't enough.  Kuvira is strong.


Just wanted to add that  Kuvira bends in a way that goes against how Toph  taught Aang.  Look at what happened when  Kuvira and Korra got into a pushing match with the big boulder . Instead of digging in like how Toph would recommend , she broke apart the boulder using Korra's overbalance to throw her down. its like she's applying airbending  to earth .


EDIT: Something else I realized.  If Varrick is able to solve the Spirit vine problem , then the United Republic just became potentially the most powerful nation in Avatar World
« Last Edit: Nov 09, 2014 08:20 pm by Emile » Logged
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« Reply #535 on: Nov 09, 2014 09:07 pm »

Varrick has a great line in this:

"You'll never know how it feels to give birth to genius...only to have it kidnapped and raised by fools!"
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Funkybender
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« Reply #536 on: Nov 09, 2014 09:30 pm »

You know I was wondering whether he meant the spirit vines or Zhu Li by that.
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nightingale
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« Reply #537 on: Nov 09, 2014 10:10 pm »

I saw a theory on tumblr that perhaps Kuvira was intending to get Jinora and Opal to intervene. Kuvira took her fair time going to Korra and getting the blades. This way Kuvira can put herself in a better light, while her adversaries were interfering with internal EE bussines and then breaking agreements when she was winning fairly.



If you think about it, Kuvira does not really intent to kill Korra. Not now at the very least. The entire world has her eyes on her. If she murders the Avatar, she would put the Fire Nation, The United Republic, the two Water Tribes and The Air Nation against her. It would be a new world war all over again. I know she is planning something, certainly.
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« Reply #538 on: Nov 09, 2014 11:17 pm »

I know this season is clearly going to have lots of earth empire in it, but what we really need is some fire nation action! We really have no idea what it's like in this new age.

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« Reply #539 on: Nov 10, 2014 05:31 am »

Does anyone else not have a problem with the Avatar State ending the fight as quickly as it did? I thought it had been a criticism of LOK that the AS had been absolutely nerfed power-wise. This episode showed that it is still indeed a force to be reckoned with, and I'm happy to see that.
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« Reply #540 on: Nov 10, 2014 10:36 am »

Does anyone else not have a problem with the Avatar State ending the fight as quickly as it did? I thought it had been a criticism of LOK that the AS had been absolutely nerfed power-wise. This episode showed that it is still indeed a force to be reckoned with, and I'm happy to see that.

What's interesting about this is that Korra was still weak while she was in the Avatar State. I mean, all she did was two little air blasts. They were powerful for such little movement but the Avatar State is shown to be more flashy than some air blasts.
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ahintoflime
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« Reply #541 on: Nov 10, 2014 11:14 am »

Does anyone else not have a problem with the Avatar State ending the fight as quickly as it did? I thought it had been a criticism of LOK that the AS had been absolutely nerfed power-wise. This episode showed that it is still indeed a force to be reckoned with, and I'm happy to see that.

I have no problem with the Avatar State user kicking butt especially when others say that that particular user is strong and we've seen her do powerful feats.
I do have a problem when that user forgets she has that power in previous Books though.
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« Reply #542 on: Nov 10, 2014 11:21 am »

Does anyone else not have a problem with the Avatar State ending the fight as quickly as it did? I thought it had been a criticism of LOK that the AS had been absolutely nerfed power-wise. This episode showed that it is still indeed a force to be reckoned with, and I'm happy to see that.

I have no problem with the Avatar State user kicking butt especially when others say that that particular user is strong and we've seen her do powerful feats.
I do have a problem when that user forgets she has that power in previous Books though.

What? Korra used the Avatar State all the time in Book 2, only a few fights that I recall where she left it alone. In Book 3 Korra never really fought anyone that she couldn't take on her own without the state. You also need to realize that the Avatar really shouldn't just throw the Avatar State around in every battle, as she is in her more vulnerable state because if she's killed in the Avatar State then the Avatar cycle ends.

So actually, Korra's constant use of the Avatar State in Book 2 wasn't a smart idea.
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ahintoflime
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« Reply #543 on: Nov 10, 2014 11:28 am »

Does anyone else not have a problem with the Avatar State ending the fight as quickly as it did? I thought it had been a criticism of LOK that the AS had been absolutely nerfed power-wise. This episode showed that it is still indeed a force to be reckoned with, and I'm happy to see that.

I have no problem with the Avatar State user kicking butt especially when others say that that particular user is strong and we've seen her do powerful feats.
I do have a problem when that user forgets she has that power in previous Books though.

What? Korra used the Avatar State all the time in Book 2, only a few fights that I recall where she left it alone. In Book 3 Korra never really fought anyone that she couldn't take on her own without the state. You also need to realize that the Avatar really shouldn't just throw the Avatar State around in every battle, as she is in her more vulnerable state because if she's killed in the Avatar State then the Avatar cycle ends.

So actually, Korra's constant use of the Avatar State in Book 2 wasn't a smart idea.

That power. The power Aang used to toss things around and the skills of the previous Avatars was her to use freely and readily in Book 2. Yet she fell each time she used it despite the spirits at the end being able to be harmed by bending, even Big Papa Vaatu (especially him when even his first emissary tanked bending like candy.)

That power. The one that broke the chains of platinum. The one that could have gotten her out of the situation in the first place when on Laghima Peak initially.

Now that she can't use the Avatar State, and she was constantly losing or not using it effectively in the past, it is just so disheartening.

Imagine if Toph's display at the Earth Rumble was the only time she did amazing actions.
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2014 11:30 am by ahintoflime » Logged
The Mug Mugger
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« Reply #544 on: Nov 10, 2014 11:45 am »

Does anyone else not have a problem with the Avatar State ending the fight as quickly as it did? I thought it had been a criticism of LOK that the AS had been absolutely nerfed power-wise. This episode showed that it is still indeed a force to be reckoned with, and I'm happy to see that.

I have no problem with the Avatar State user kicking butt especially when others say that that particular user is strong and we've seen her do powerful feats.
I do have a problem when that user forgets she has that power in previous Books though.

What? Korra used the Avatar State all the time in Book 2, only a few fights that I recall where she left it alone. In Book 3 Korra never really fought anyone that she couldn't take on her own without the state. You also need to realize that the Avatar really shouldn't just throw the Avatar State around in every battle, as she is in her more vulnerable state because if she's killed in the Avatar State then the Avatar cycle ends.

So actually, Korra's constant use of the Avatar State in Book 2 wasn't a smart idea.

That power. The power Aang used to toss things around and the skills of the previous Avatars was her to use freely and readily in Book 2. Yet she fell each time she used it despite the spirits at the end being able to be harmed by bending, even Big Papa Vaatu (especially him when even his first emissary tanked bending like candy.)

That power. The one that broke the chains of platinum. The one that could have gotten her out of the situation in the first place when on Laghima Peak initially.

Now that she can't use the Avatar State, and she was constantly losing or not using it effectively in the past, it is just so disheartening.

Imagine if Toph's display at the Earth Rumble was the only time she did amazing actions.

Yeah Korra could just turn on the Avatar State in every fight, no tension or stakes are necessary in her fights! Just turn on Avatar State and the fight's over. It's not like Aang used the Avatar State at the wrong time, with the wrong opponent and got himself killed and locked the Avatar State until a pointy rock fixed it in his battle with Ozai.
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ahintoflime
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« Reply #545 on: Nov 10, 2014 11:57 am »

Yeah Korra could just turn on the Avatar State in every fight, no tension or stakes are necessary in her fights! Just turn on Avatar State and the fight's over. It's not like Aang used the Avatar State at the wrong time, with the wrong opponent and got himself killed and locked the Avatar State until a pointy rock fixed it in his battle with Ozai.

Which is where we could get tension. And where her support team could come in - prevent back and sneak attacks while kung fu Buddha goes all Sun Wukong on the opposition.
If Korra dies, then the legacy is ended and not just rebooted since 10,000 years would need to pass before Raava/Vaatu would have their chance again. And by then the world would either have destroyed itself or moved on but that's another tale.
There is still the "tension" and "stake" of making mistakes.

You don't want to Avatar State the Equalists lest you give them more clout and ammunition against the peace you want to promote. But you do use it when they start to get unruly and terrorist on you (except she couldn't but I hope you get what I'm saying).

You don't want to use the Avatar State on the spirits or you continue to divide the gulf between the spiritual and physical world. But you do want to use it against Water Pope and use it effectively since you DO have 10,000 years of skills and experience and are a master waterbender yourself AND have several master waterbenders residing in your skill tree and technique pool.

You don't want to use the Avatar State against a monarch. But you will if they start to obstruct balance and try to step on the rights of others. And you do want to use the Avatar State against an airbender who is alone with you and your dad while the airbender's girlfriend is preoccupied. That way you take out the airbender and then either go after his girlfriend or watch the girlfriend get ahead in life.

Or you can at least recall that you have 14 years of training under your belt in the last 3 books and that your physical side was improving and the likes of the Red Lotus and Azula were able to be a threat despite being locked up for 14 years and going insane, respectively.
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2014 12:03 pm by ahintoflime » Logged
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« Reply #546 on: Nov 10, 2014 01:39 pm »

I just love they skimmed over Su Yin's child soldier truce breaking assassination plot. Even Korra admitted Kuvira was within her rights but they have to fight because lol!plot. And how much you wanna bet it isn't mentioned again? They sure as heck didn't tell Tenzin.
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« Reply #547 on: Nov 10, 2014 02:00 pm »

Get off the child soldier thing. Wei and Wing are older than all of Tenzin's children and Kai, and they've done far more fighting. They fight because Korra doesn't want Kuvira taking over Zaofu. She does not agree with Kuvira.
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« Reply #548 on: Nov 10, 2014 02:05 pm »

Get off the child soldier thing. Wei and Wing are older than all of Tenzin's children and Kai, and they've done far more fighting. They fight because Korra doesn't want Kuvira taking over Zaofu. She does not agree with Kuvira.

Yeah, both Wing and Wei are adults and can participate as anyone in such activities as they did. Most likely (considering the attitude they seem to have, all gunho on thigns) they were begging to go.
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« Reply #549 on: Nov 10, 2014 02:30 pm »

But gosh, constantly accusing Su of making child soldiers of her own children makes her sound MUCH more horrible than her children are legal adults and presumably went of their own free will. Never mind the fact their older than Tenzin's kids have been all series, older than the Gaang, and probably around the Krew's age if not older at the start of the series, Su is the devil incarnate. HEIL KUVIRA, CRUSH THE TYRANNICAL, CHILD ENSLAVING SU YIN BEI FONG  Roll Eyes
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