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Question: Rate This Episode:
10 - 49 (47.1%)
9 - 23 (22.1%)
8 - 14 (13.5%)
7 - 10 (9.6%)
6 - 4 (3.8%)
5 - 2 (1.9%)
4 - 1 (1%)
3 - 1 (1%)
2 - 0 (0%)
1 - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 104

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Author Topic: [406] The Battle of Zaofu  (Read 36906 times)
Spiritwhisperer
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« Reply #575 on: Nov 10, 2014 07:31 pm »

If ZF was it's own polity and not private property it would have it's own borders. It's more akin to Disneyland or Skywalker Ranch

I'm seeing borders. The territory around Zao Fu doesn't belong to the state to the northwest of it. The red line is cut off at the river, but the river forms the closing portion of the border, just like it does right above it where the swamp ends at the river. It's also the same shape as the missing puzzle piece on Kuvira's map.

 

« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2014 07:32 pm by Spiritwhisperer » Logged

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« Reply #576 on: Nov 10, 2014 07:37 pm »

I'm just going to point out the obvious: this entire discussion hinges on taking a map made by the Earth Empire, which has its own ideas as to who owns what, as canon proof of Zaofu's independence or lack thereof. Of course Zaofu isn't going to be listed as independent on Kuvira's maps, she intends to conquer it.
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SpiritWatcher
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Tank-kun


« Reply #577 on: Nov 10, 2014 07:41 pm »

^lolz yeah we all kinda forgot that
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Magicman710
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« Reply #578 on: Nov 10, 2014 07:42 pm »

Does anyone else not have a problem with the Avatar State ending the fight as quickly as it did? I thought it had been a criticism of LOK that the AS had been absolutely nerfed power-wise. This episode showed that it is still indeed a force to be reckoned with, and I'm happy to see that.

Nope. The Avatar State is the Avatar State. It is what makes the Avatar who he or she is. Without the AS, Wan would have never defeated Vaatu. Just being able to bend all four elements alone doesn't make for an intimendating figure. The ability to bend those elements with power that no other bender is capable of, is.

To not utilize it when it is needed is foolish on an Avatar's part, unless the use would result in the death of the user. Korra was absolutely justified in using it in this instance, as she clearly was not on her game and needed the extra power in order to defeat a very powerful and skilled bender.

The Avatar State can also double as a less-than-lethal "show of force" tool, such as when Roku used it to destroy the Throne Room.

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SpiritWatcher
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Tank-kun


« Reply #579 on: Nov 10, 2014 07:51 pm »

What about Kuvira's line about redistributing Zaofu's wealth equally?
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ThaiOzai
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« Reply #580 on: Nov 10, 2014 07:57 pm »

What about Kuvira's line about redistributing Zaofu's wealth equally?

I think that was just a pre-text for the invasion. PR, basically. Besides that, I don't remember her ever talking about wealth distribution, social equality, etc.
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WarriorMind556
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« Reply #581 on: Nov 10, 2014 08:21 pm »

Imperial soldiers aren't really smart. Rather all volley fire bolders at Opal and Jinora they rush point blank at her allowing them to create tornado.


And how in the world did two airbenders create a tornado so large to stop an army?
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ThaiOzai
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« Reply #582 on: Nov 10, 2014 08:30 pm »

Imperial soldiers aren't really smart. Rather all volley fire bolders at Opal and Jinora they rush point blank at her allowing them to create tornado.

Well, they probably saw two little girls and figured they could just overwhelm them with sheer numbers.

Quote

And how in the world did two airbenders create a tornado so large to stop an army?

At least Jinora is a master, and Opal has several years under her belt at this point. If Jinora plus a bunch of novices three years ago could create a tornado strong enough to reach and hold Zaheer, it's not out of the question that they could hold off the army for a bit. It doesn't really matter how many men there are if you can't get close enough to effectively attack.
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SpiritWatcher
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« Reply #583 on: Nov 10, 2014 08:49 pm »

Why can't they just bend the earth under Jinora and Opal?
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« Reply #584 on: Nov 10, 2014 08:51 pm »

Why can't they just bend the earth under Jinora and Opal?
Ground base attacks can be avoided as seen in many times in this show.
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ThaiOzai
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« Reply #585 on: Nov 10, 2014 08:55 pm »

Why can't they just bend the earth under Jinora and Opal?

In addition to being able to avoid those attacks, those soldiers were being physically pushed back. They simply couldn't perform the motions to attack. Attacks also have a range, so they needed to be somewhat close to attack.

In any case, you could always rewatch battle scenes and say 'why didn't character X just do that?'. It's not that big of a deal unless it's completely illogical.
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ALTA_FAN
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« Reply #586 on: Nov 10, 2014 09:30 pm »

Just re-watched... I think korra was just sloppy and slow. She had some pretty good combos; its just that kuvira is up to date on her bending.

And regarding the airnado... I think geography plays a role here. Think about it, the valley almost feels like a channel for the air to blast down towards the army.

Ehh... That wasn't worded very well. I hope you get my drift lol

EDIT:
I remembered something! Korra has always had a bit of a learning curve against new/different forms of bending. Why should kuvira be any different?

Edit edit:

Maybe it takes a lot to get a tornado going, but it also may cost less energy to keep one spinning. After a certain point, I think physics takes over. Discuss?
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2014 09:34 pm by ALTA_FAN » Logged

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« Reply #587 on: Nov 10, 2014 09:39 pm »

Just re-watched... I think korra was just sloppy and slow. She had some pretty good combos; its just that kuvira is up to date on her bending.

And regarding the airnado... I think geography plays a role here. Think about it, the valley almost feels like a channel for the air to blast down towards the army.

Ehh... That wasn't worded very well. I hope you get my drift lol

EDIT:
I remembered something! Korra has always had a bit of a learning curve against new/different forms of bending. Why should kuvira be any different?

Edit edit:

Maybe it takes a lot to get a tornado going, but it also may cost less energy to keep one spinning. After a certain point, I think physics takes over. Discuss?

I agree with all of your points.  Smiley
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"The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light."
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« Reply #588 on: Nov 10, 2014 09:42 pm »

What I don't understand is why didn't the Kuvira and Imperial soldiers just attack the tornado instead try going through it. A bolder thrown with enough velocity(remember this is hundreds of soldiers in one formation square) can probably go through the wall of air.

And Jinora wasn't maintaining the tornado.
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2014 09:44 pm by WarriorMind556 » Logged
ThaiOzai
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« Reply #589 on: Nov 10, 2014 09:43 pm »

What I don't understand is why did the Imperial soldiers just attack the tornado instead try going through it. A bolder thrown with enough velocity(remember this is hundreds of soldiers in one formation square) can probably go through the wall of air.

Too much chaos and the soldiers panicked?
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« Reply #590 on: Nov 11, 2014 02:16 am »

What about Kuvira's line about redistributing Zaofu's wealth equally?

I think that was just a pre-text for the invasion. PR, basically. Besides that, I don't remember her ever talking about wealth distribution, social equality, etc.

Even if it is just "tough rhetoric", it's still notable, I think.  It's a less than subtle reminder that these populist themes can be abused.  I appreciate that.
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« Reply #591 on: Nov 11, 2014 03:30 am »

Why is Varrick my favorite character right now? Ugh, I can't even explain it.
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« Reply #592 on: Nov 11, 2014 03:40 am »

I have to say they had a pretty good handle on the comedy during this episode.

Well fine, I'm not a fan of Meelo, and Huan is okay,

but Bolin - Varrick - Bataar? That was terrific.

Bolin wasn't over the top unfunny, in fact he played the 'totally jaded' angle really well. Favorite line: "I can't believe Zhu Li worked for you as long as she did.."
Varrick was awesome. All of it was just win. Being 'zhu li'd, messing around with the timer and remote, yelling at Bolin to do the thing, and putting on his serious-and-scheming voice. Favorite line: "Bolin, do the thing!" Bolin: "Uhhh" Varrick: "unh00k the cars! Oh-come-on that was an easy one.."
Bataar jr.. Bataar was just so adorably dense. It was really funny. Favorite line: "Why do you have a timer and a remote?" That delivery just killed me. I quite like his voice.
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« Reply #593 on: Nov 11, 2014 03:43 am »

but Bolin - Varrick - Bataar? That was terrific.

So much agreement! I'm glad we'll be getting more Bolin and Varrick in the future. The next best comedy match-up was Mako & Prince Wu.
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« Reply #594 on: Nov 11, 2014 03:47 am »

I didn't really like prince Wu in the original preview clip we got before the season, when he was hitting on Asami, but he's really grown on me too. He cracked me up loads during The Coronation.
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« Reply #595 on: Nov 11, 2014 04:38 am »

I have to say they had a pretty good handle on the comedy during this episode.

Well fine, I'm not a fan of Meelo, and Huan is okay,

but Bolin - Varrick - Bataar? That was terrific.

Bolin wasn't over the top unfunny, in fact he played the 'totally jaded' angle really well. Favorite line: "I can't believe Zhu Li worked for you as long as she did.."
Varrick was awesome. All of it was just win. Being 'zhu li'd, messing around with the timer and remote, yelling at Bolin to do the thing, and putting on his serious-and-scheming voice. Favorite line: "Bolin, do the thing!" Bolin: "Uhhh" Varrick: "unh00k the cars! Oh-come-on that was an easy one.."
Bataar jr.. Bataar was just so adorably dense. It was really funny. Favorite line: "Why do you have a timer and a remote?" That delivery just killed me. I quite like his voice.

Why is no one mentioning Meelo's painting? The little bastard painted himself like a King... or a tyrannical emperor. He doesn't give me good vibes. He is perhaps the true villain in the show, manipulating the events for his own amusement.

When her countrymen were being ravaged by bandits and starved of all necessity, Su Yin closed herself off in her private paradise; built on criminal funds she gained after escaping justice due to to cronyism. And as the Earth Kingdom burned while Su Yin lay back sipping Kalenutsco, Kuvira answered the call of the people that Su Yin callously ignored.

Kuvira, along with the best and brightest of Zao Fu who all left Su Yin by choice, then purged the bandits and established order, but rather than return to the status quo of the Earth Queen, she advanced the states, giving railines, running water, satomobiles and a better quality of life for the people, all while showing mercy by  reforming the bandits who were victims of circumstance.

And then rather than hand over the states who were legally and consensually signed over to her by contract to Wu,the pompous noble who had earned nothing and done nothing for the Kingdom, she instead did what was best for her people. Despite the protests of the Western Powers who were poised to take over the Earth Kingdom (and its ore)via Advisers and a Puppet Monarch who admitted he wouldn’t do anything for the country.

And then when Su Yin, decided to ignore the government, hoarding her advanced technology and wealth in her self-made hypocritical matriarchy, Kuvira still showed mercy; rather than just taking down the insurrection she instead offered a chance for peaceful deferment to the government. Even the Avatar, who Su Yin in her bloodthirst had wished to destroy the government forces and Kuvira, listened to reason and set up a truce. A truce that was broken when Su Yin snuck into Kuvira’s camp in the dead of night like coward and tried to kill Kuvira in cold blood with her own two children no less.

And even THEN Kuvira’s shows mercy, with this very clear capital offense not being given the death penalty.

Su Yin is a wealthy, self-appointed criminal matriarch who thinks herself above the law and attempted to murder a head of state she raised since she was eight with her own two children.

Self-appointed? She is the founder of the city, but all the people in Zaofu accepted her leadership willingly. It's true that Suyin commited a mistake by leaving that Earth Kingdom into chaos, but her reasons are understandable: It opposes her ideals. She never believed in the ideals behind the throne of the Earth Kingdom, and as such it makes her not really the ideal for the task at hand. The true culprit behing all this chaos is the Earth Kingdom royalty. Years of oppression and misuses of resources and money eventually lead to chaos. The people are now paying the consequences of the Earth Queen's failed administration. But there is a blame to put on the other world leaders too, especially the United Republic. They gave to much power to Kuvira and didn't give her the supervision it required. They allowed her to have to much power in her hands, and eventually things went out of control.

As much as you praise Kuvira's actions an ideals, she is a failure as a leader. She has oppressed basic freedoms to the citizens of the Earth Kingdom, she has used unethical means to achieve her goals (including blackmail, breainwashing, and most likely execution), and although she installed order, she didn't give freedom to the people she supposedly was potecting. Instead she planted seeds of fear an manipulation, using brute force to subjugate. Let's not forget that she is developing weapons of mass destruction, and threatened Varrick with death in order to make him work. All of this, and surely much more has made her a tyrant, someone that has violated the will and rights of others in order to further her own wishes. If history has taught us something, such tactics fail in the long run. There is absolutely no way you can defend Kuvira's actions, and blaming Suyin is absurd, because she herself doesn't hold all the responsability. Kuvira is something: a totalitarian, that has brought a different form of misery to her land. The Earth Kingdom may be in order, but it's really not much different than it was before.

The difference is that the Earth Queen cared more about her luxurious lifestyle than to actually govern.
« Last Edit: Nov 11, 2014 04:42 am by nightingale » Logged

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« Reply #596 on: Nov 11, 2014 05:03 am »

I have to say they had a pretty good handle on the comedy during this episode.

Well fine, I'm not a fan of Meelo, and Huan is okay,

but Bolin - Varrick - Bataar? That was terrific.

Bolin wasn't over the top unfunny, in fact he played the 'totally jaded' angle really well. Favorite line: "I can't believe Zhu Li worked for you as long as she did.."
Varrick was awesome. All of it was just win. Being 'zhu li'd, messing around with the timer and remote, yelling at Bolin to do the thing, and putting on his serious-and-scheming voice. Favorite line: "Bolin, do the thing!" Bolin: "Uhhh" Varrick: "unh00k the cars! Oh-come-on that was an easy one.."
Bataar jr.. Bataar was just so adorably dense. It was really funny. Favorite line: "Why do you have a timer and a remote?" That delivery just killed me. I quite like his voice.

I agree 100%, this was easily the funniest episode since Rebirth in season 3. The entire train scene had me in stitches. Bolin and Varrick are easily the best comedic duo since Sokka and Toph. Honestly the rest of the season could just be Bolin and Varrick going on wacky adventures and I think I would be completely okay with that. Varrick's response to Baatar's remote line killed me.
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« Reply #597 on: Nov 11, 2014 07:04 am »



Looking at the map, ZF is within the territory of two Earth States, earth States that signed loyalty to Kuvira.


Query. Where was it said that, that particular state is Zao Fu ? I re watched the episode, no one pointed to that state as being Zao Fu.
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« Reply #598 on: Nov 11, 2014 09:17 am »

but Bolin - Varrick - Bataar? That was terrific.

So much agreement! I'm glad we'll be getting more Bolin and Varrick in the future. The next best comedy match-up was Mako & Prince Wu.

I really hope we get more of these duos to dull the pain from seeing Korra struggle.

And I hated Wu at the start, too. I still don't like him, but he's endearing in an over-the-top comical way.

And I've already got ideas for Dark Horse's first LOK comic tie-in. Encapsulated side stories featuring Wu/Mako and Varrick/Zhu Li (if we want to go further back). Just wacky adventures and a little worldbuilding.

I can hope, right?
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« Reply #599 on: Nov 14, 2014 11:25 am »

I have to say that this title was quite misleading. It would have been more apt to call it Duel for Zaofu or Duel at Zaofu. I mean there was no real battle here, it was hardly even a skirmish.
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