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Author Topic: [405] Enemy at the Gates  (Read 38093 times)
TheGrandSage23
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« Reply #475 on: Nov 05, 2014 11:30 pm »

If Kuvira reached an epiphany and redeemed herself.. It honestly wouldn't surprise me.. Nor should it... Anyone can change... If it takes a butt whooping for Kuvira to see that then so be it.. I would welcome it

Suyin needs a beating as well

Su and Kuvira have a drop down, drag out battle, and at the end, when they are both exhausted, Su apologizes for hurting Kuvira, and then Kuvira cries and can't fight anymore.  Smiley

While redemption can be good for Kuvira... How it happens could be interesting...I having bad things happen to you can broaden your view and make you think "wow what a douchebag I was"

But there are a few problems concerning Kuvira and Su
As I said before.. Kuvira will be in for a rude awakening.. It's just a matter of time before she fails and flips out...Korra won't reason with her because it's like talking to Book 1/2 Korra.. Thick headed and  prone to not giving a damn..her decisions last episode were dumb.. Trusting Zhu Li and thinking she has control over spirit energy because apparently she think she knows more than Varrick on the subject.. Lol...Betrayal will happen and what? Will she act like Korra and flip tables..will the sprits run amok due to her actions and attack her army?  I think her fight  this Friday will let us in on her a bit more.

I think the biggest question concerning her is what does she want? Is she doing good because she still wants to help people or is it to feed her "hero"image?... I don't think Korra can teach her anything but more that Korra can learn more from Kuvira


The argument Korra should've used against her was the Zaofu's stability itself... This action she's taken is basically for no reason.. Why unify? There's no reason to other than it being a personal problem which prove Kuvira is being fickle and Su is the problem.. This is mainly about Suyin and Kuvira..  I think Suyin might become a potential threat to Korra as well  since she's flying off the handle(ironic isn't it).. If I was Korra I would lock them in a room for an hour or two and let them fight it out
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #476 on: Nov 06, 2014 06:09 am »

Kuvira will be in for a rude awakening...

I don't think so. Unless the show plays the "Raiko-the-evul-puppetmaster" card, in which case Kuvira probably won't like the fact that she was a mere pawn in Raiko's game of power.

It's just a matter of time before she fails and flips out... Korra won't reason with her because it's like talking to Book 1/2 Korra...

Book 1/2 Korra would have flipped out on several occasions already. However, I agree that Korra won't reason with her, not because Kuvira is so headstrong or anything, but because Korra isn't really a match for her in this case. I mean, Korra's big reasoning scene in this episode was pretty underwhelming:
Korra: Plz Kuvira go.
Kuvira: No. You go.
Korra: Okay  Sad.

It was more like Kuvira was reasoning with Korra...

Trusting Zhu Li and thinking she has control over spirit energy because apparently she think she knows more than Varrick on the subject.. Lol...

Even the fandom is divided on Zhu Li, whether she is in for real or not. And Kuvira doesn't think that she knows more than Varrick on the subject - that's why she tasked Varrick to continue the project even after his treachery.

Betrayal will happen and what? Will she act like Korra and flip tables..

Betrayal has already happened, and she was like "whatever".

I think the biggest question concerning her is what does she want? Is she doing good because she still wants to help people or is it to feed her "hero" image?...

We can rule this one out, because she knows that some of her stuff is not nice at all.
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TheGrandSage23
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« Reply #477 on: Nov 06, 2014 01:01 pm »

Kuvira will be in for a rude awakening...

I don't think so. Unless the show plays the "Raiko-the-evul-puppetmaster" card, in which case Kuvira probably won't like the fact that she was a mere pawn in Raiko's game of power.

It's just a matter of time before she fails and flips out... Korra won't reason with her because it's like talking to Book 1/2 Korra...

Book 1/2 Korra would have flipped out on several occasions already. However, I agree that Korra won't reason with her, not because Kuvira is so headstrong or anything, but because Korra isn't really a match for her in this case. I mean, Korra's big reasoning scene in this episode was pretty underwhelming:
Korra: Plz Kuvira go.
Kuvira: No. You go.
Korra: Okay  Sad.

It was more like Kuvira was reasoning with Korra...

Trusting Zhu Li and thinking she has control over spirit energy because apparently she think she knows more than Varrick on the subject.. Lol...

Even the fandom is divided on Zhu Li, whether she is in for real or not. And Kuvira doesn't think that she knows more than Varrick on the subject - that's why she tasked Varrick to continue the project even after his treachery.

Betrayal will happen and what? Will she act like Korra and flip tables..

Betrayal has already happened, and she was like "whatever".

I think the biggest question concerning her is what does she want? Is she doing good because she still wants to help people or is it to feed her "hero" image?...

We can rule this one out, because she knows that some of her stuff is not nice at all.


It's not about her being a pawn but her plans and bad decisions she's made previously will bite her in the end..and plus Kuvira hasn't really gotten the short end of the stick yet but still has freaked out in her own way... Metal choking Varrick and threatening him to drop him from the train is overboard but it's to establish Kuvira's morality and mindset is sinking lower. Also it shows how short sighted and naive she's being.. If she killed Varrick then what? Continue the project? How?. Plus Bolin has betrayed her and her answer?  "Re education camp" Zhu Li got a second chance due to butt kissing ..

It's not that she knows that she's not being "nice" anymore...in certain situations you have to get your hands dirty and make tough decisions the outcome of those decisions will always send different viewpoints of yourself to people.. You can do "bad things" to fish for gold in the end..You can be good to others yet at the same time be seen as the enemy and that's what Kuvira has been since this season started.  "Good person or bad person" can be seen as words created by circumstance..  Korra isn't a political person so her being swayed by Kuvira wasn't surprising but she didn't  fully believe Kuvira either

What I'm saying is her invasion on Zaofu..  She has no reason to  try to unify it... There's nothing wrong with Zaofu in the first place. Completely stable which  leads me to believe this is all personal  and it makes Kuvira seem fickle but it also builds up the tension between her and Su
« Last Edit: Nov 06, 2014 01:03 pm by TheGrandSage23 » Logged
morbosfist
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« Reply #478 on: Nov 06, 2014 01:12 pm »

It's not about her being a pawn but her plans and bad decisions she's made previously will bite her in the end..and plus Kuvira hasn't really gotten the short end of the stick yet but still has freaked out in her own way... Metal choking Varrick and threatening him to drop him from the train is overboard but it's to establish Kuvira's morality and mindset is sinking lower. Also it shows how short sighted and naive she's being.. If she killed Varrick then what? Continue the project? How?. Plus Bolin has betrayed her and her answer?  "Re education camp" Zhu Li got a second chance due to butt kissing ..
The thing is, if Varrick won't work on the project, then what use is he? If she does nothing, the project goes nowhere anyway. Threatening Varrick gets him to keep doing his job, a job he is otherwise reluctant to keep doing. As for Bolin, we've never seen Kuvira using him as anything other than an envoy. Threatening him when he's showing reservations doesn't exactly cost her anything.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #479 on: Nov 06, 2014 01:22 pm »

It's not about her being a pawn but her plans and bad decisions she's made previously will bite her in the end..and plus Kuvira hasn't really gotten the short end of the stick yet but still has freaked out in her own way... Metal choking Varrick and threatening him to drop him from the train is overboard but it's to establish Kuvira's morality and mindset is sinking lower.

It's called coercion, and it is the No.1 tool for evil guys/girls to get through people with conscience. It is just villain logic stuff, business as usual.

What I'm saying is her invasion on Zaofu..  She has no reason to  try to unify it... There's nothing wrong with Zaofu in the first place. Completely stable which  leads me to believe this is all personal  and it makes Kuvira seem fickle but it also builds up the tension between her and Su

She has a very good reason to capture Zaofu: it is a metalbending learning center, with all sorts of advanced training facilities that could come quite handy if your army relies on metalbending.
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TishToshTesh
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« Reply #480 on: Nov 06, 2014 01:54 pm »


She has a very good reason to capture Zaofu: it is a metalbending learning center, with all sorts of advanced training facilities that could come quite handy if your army relies on metalbending.

Oh, certainly, it just doesn't fit as well in the "bringing stability to the empire" as easily, when trying to justify it to the outside world.  The city is content to be left alone and isn't causing trouble.  Well, at least until Su attacks (though she was provoked).
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SpiritWatcher
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« Reply #481 on: Nov 06, 2014 02:29 pm »

^Yeah, she has marched an army up to a perfectly peaceful and prosperous place. Its a completely different situation from before. I don't know how that looks good. Now Suyin's attempted assassination is going to give her legitimate excuse though. Its really really wrong when you think about it, because its also so right.

I mean, if Suyin were to succeed in taking out Kuvira, it would be remembered throughout history as the genius and self sacrificing act (Suyin is putting herself, not her soldiers in danger) which cut the head off the dragon and either stopped the army at Zaofu or ultimately began the toppling of an upstart oppressive regime.

Since she is going to fail though, it will be remembered as a poorly thought out act of desperation which gave legitimate reason for Kuvira to attack with her army and claim Zaofu under the auspices of keeping peace. Thus the last city falls under questionable circumstances and Kuvira's empire lives on.

Really sad how we look at history ain't it?
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BlackPanther1012
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« Reply #482 on: Nov 06, 2014 04:13 pm »

^ Not necessarily. If Suyin succeeded in taking out Kuvira, there is a chance that history will look back and view it as an injust assassination a la Indira Ghandi or Abraham Lincoln and the empire will survive and grow even stronger and completely crush Su and her family. Because, let's be real: do you really think Bataar will be unable to step up and take over should the need arise.

As somewhat petty as Kuvira is being by wanting Zaofu, she'll look completely cold and pragmatic compared to Bataar.


She has a very good reason to capture Zaofu: it is a metalbending learning center, with all sorts of advanced training facilities that could come quite handy if your army relies on metalbending.

Oh, certainly, it just doesn't fit as well in the "bringing stability to the empire" as easily, when trying to justify it to the outside world.  The city is content to be left alone and isn't causing trouble.  Well, at least until Su attacks (though she was provoked).

Su wasn't provoked. She was being impatient and reckless. She's going to pay for that...dearly.
« Last Edit: Nov 06, 2014 04:15 pm by BlackPanther1012 » Logged

What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
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Spiritwhisperer
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« Reply #483 on: Nov 06, 2014 04:32 pm »

While Zao Fu was perfectly fine and stable, Kuvira admittedly has somewhat of a point. "Why should I treat it differently than any other state?" She's unifying the old Earth Kingdom again - that was her mandate. She's not forging a nation solely out of the chaotic states, she's uniting all of them and Zao Fu will be added, kicking and screaming if need be.

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Goodfella
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« Reply #484 on: Nov 06, 2014 04:45 pm »

While Zao Fu was perfectly fine and stable, Kuvira admittedly has somewhat of a point. "Why should I treat it differently than any other state?" She's unifying the old Earth Kingdom again - that was her mandate. She's not forging a nation solely out of the chaotic states, she's uniting all of them and Zao Fu will be added, kicking and screaming if need be.



Her original mandate AND legal agreement was, "Unify and stablize the EK AND give up power and hand it off to Wu" and she's not in a hurry to do that either.

Basically, she's already broken one agreement. She could technically break this one and leave things be. However, pride.
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TishToshTesh
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« Reply #485 on: Nov 06, 2014 05:18 pm »


Su wasn't provoked. She was being impatient and reckless. She's going to pay for that...dearly.

While I agree she's reckless, I consider Kuvira rolling her army up the canyon to be a pretty big provocative move.
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Molra
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« Reply #486 on: Nov 06, 2014 05:33 pm »

I'm sorry, but I've been reading this discussion for some pages and have one basic and simple question:

I assume I have missed something really important in the episode because I have no clue about why are people assuming Su and her sons have in mind the goal of assassinating Kuvira, I think that is too much.
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morbosfist
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« Reply #487 on: Nov 06, 2014 05:40 pm »

"Put an end to this" suggests a finality to their intent beyond mere kidnapping.
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BlackPanther1012
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« Reply #488 on: Nov 06, 2014 05:41 pm »

So why would they sneak into a military camp (dispatching guards in the process) in the dead of night and wearing skintight black stealth suits, Molra?

To give her a hug?


Su wasn't provoked. She was being impatient and reckless. She's going to pay for that...dearly.

While I agree she's reckless, I consider Kuvira rolling her army up the canyon to be a pretty big provocative move.

No more provocative than breaking and entering, attacking guards and attempting an assassination.
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shorewall
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« Reply #489 on: Nov 06, 2014 05:51 pm »

I'm sorry, but I've been reading this discussion for some pages and have one basic and simple question:

I assume I have missed something really important in the episode because I have no clue about why are people assuming Su and her sons have in mind the goal of assassinating Kuvira, I think that is too much.

In the preview for next episode, One of the twins says, even without Kuvira, the army could crush them.  Su says, they are going to take Kuvira out, and end her reign of terror.  My question back is, what part of that doesn't imply they want to kill her?  

I know it's a Nick show, but that just means I don't think they are going to succeed.  Also, you could say it's a reflection of the fandom's opinion of Su that we automatically assume that she is out for blood.

She may not be trying to kill Kuvira, but if she wanted to talk, she could have done so before.  And if she is trying to...what, exactly?  Take Kuvira hostage?  The twin brought up that they are sneaking into an enemy camp.  They could be found and captured at any time.  It would be difficult to subdue a master earth and metal bender without alerting anyone.  That could be their plan, which would be even more reckless, to the point of holding the idiot ball.  

So it's either Su is really reckless to the point of stupidity, or she is going to try to "Take out" Kuvira.  Let alone that LOK is a lot more open to the idea of death and murder, and moreso now that it is a net exclusive.  No one thinks that she will be able to succeed, but we are savvy.  Smiley

I actually don't blame Su for trying to take out the enemy leader by stealth (although she seems a bit too confident that the army would fall without Kuvira).  I find it cold that she is mutually participating in Total War style "wet work" on people who used to be so close.  She doesn't have much mercy, for someone who expected a ton from Lin and others.
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« Reply #490 on: Nov 06, 2014 06:02 pm »

The point is that Su believes that if she takes out the leader (be it assassination or hostage) the army will surrender. It's a strategy that most villains use because the leader is the one that holds everything together. Of course this is not a 100% guarantee because of the old saying "vengeance begets vengeance". Someone else will just take Kuvira's place, particularly BJ because he's second in command and her fiancee. Su will have take him out as well.
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Molra
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« Reply #491 on: Nov 06, 2014 06:04 pm »

^^okay, thanks for the explanation. Although I do agree that the expression may lead to this interpretation, and maybe they intended it to be ambiguous, I still think that this is not what they (Bryke) had in mind - one thing is Su killing P'Li to save Lin, other thing is Su killing Kuvira, whom she has raised as a daughter. I don't think this is in accordance with her profile.

edit:
So why would they sneak into a military camp (dispatching guards in the process) in the dead of night and wearing skintight black stealth suits, Molra?

To give her a hug?

Su is too emotional and is reacting without thinking, that does not mean she really really is planning an assassination. And her son, noticing the nonsense of the situation, reasoned and questioned her about it.

That said, I could answer you, also, with another question: Do you think Katara, deep down, really intended to kill a man in The Southern Raiders?
« Last Edit: Nov 06, 2014 06:23 pm by Molra » Logged

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SpiritWatcher
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« Reply #492 on: Nov 06, 2014 06:28 pm »

So why would they sneak into a military camp (dispatching guards in the process) in the dead of night and wearing skintight black stealth suits, Molra?

To give her a hug?


Su wasn't provoked. She was being impatient and reckless. She's going to pay for that...dearly.

While I agree she's reckless, I consider Kuvira rolling her army up the canyon to be a pretty big provocative move.

No more provocative than breaking and entering, attacking guards and attempting an assassination.

Who attacked first though? I mean seriously, who did?

Once you roll a massive army up to a city you aren't negotiating anymore no matter how much you preach you are. You are asking for war, death, and conquest.
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« Reply #493 on: Nov 06, 2014 07:12 pm »

If Kuvira reached an epiphany and redeemed herself.. It honestly wouldn't surprise me.. Nor should it... Anyone can change... If it takes a butt whooping for Kuvira to see that then so be it.. I would welcome it

Suyin needs a beating as well

Su and Kuvira have a drop down, drag out battle, and at the end, when they are both exhausted, Su apologizes for hurting Kuvira, and then Kuvira cries and can't fight anymore.  Smiley

Written by Katie Matilla.
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ALTA_FAN
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« Reply #494 on: Nov 06, 2014 08:51 pm »

You know, this whole su and kuvira thing gives Su a chance to think of how crappy she was as a child... If we are to assume that Kuvira is "acting out" for attention
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shorewall
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« Reply #495 on: Nov 06, 2014 09:26 pm »

If Kuvira reached an epiphany and redeemed herself.. It honestly wouldn't surprise me.. Nor should it... Anyone can change... If it takes a butt whooping for Kuvira to see that then so be it.. I would welcome it

Suyin needs a beating as well

Su and Kuvira have a drop down, drag out battle, and at the end, when they are both exhausted, Su apologizes for hurting Kuvira, and then Kuvira cries and can't fight anymore.  Smiley

Written by Katie Matilla.

I know you hate those episodes, but "Katie Matilla...is a compliment!"  Cheesy  (Catch the ref.  Wink)
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« Reply #496 on: Nov 06, 2014 10:17 pm »

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teenj12
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« Reply #497 on: Nov 06, 2014 10:32 pm »

I know that some of the fandom is a little disappointed in Su's behavior as of late, but I find it to be much in line with the fact that she's Toph's daughter. I certainly see  lot of Toph in her, but in a much different way than I see with Lin. That's good writing/characterization on Bryke's part.
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« Reply #498 on: Nov 06, 2014 10:44 pm »

I'm not disappointed.


First thing she asks Korra to do is go glowey and kill everyone, and then she goes ninja-mode with her two youngest sons to assassinate her former protege.

That's just awesome.
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« Reply #499 on: Nov 07, 2014 01:18 am »

^ Suyin's a Bei Fong. No matter how peaceful or compassionate Su is, she's still going to rain fire on her enemies like her mother before her.
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