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Poll
Question: Who would win?
Amon - 28 (37.3%)
Tarrlok - 3 (4%)
Unalaq - 3 (4%)
Zaheer - 11 (14.7%)
Kuvira - 30 (40%)
Total Voters: 75

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Author Topic: Ideologies: Amon vs. Tarrlok vs. Unalaq vs. Zaheer vs. Kuvira  (Read 22329 times)
Old School
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« on: Oct 09, 2014 11:39 am »

Let's get all the LOK villains together for a good old fashioned no-holds-barred, knock-down drag-out...political debate.

We could argue over who would win in a fight anytime, so instead, let's pit their ideologies against each other, on a stage, in front of a neutral audience, moderated by a neutral party Varrick.

Who do you think has the best talking points? Who wins the audience over? Who loses their cool the fastest? And who do you believe would win the debate overall?




Thread title edited to make it obvious what the thread is about. ~SMBH
« Last Edit: Oct 09, 2014 08:38 pm by SMBH » Logged
ThaiOzai
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 09, 2014 11:46 am »

I think Amon has the most compelling case. I'm sure that at some point in most non-bender's life, they've been somewhat jealous of benders. Bending gives some people a huge advantage over others, and it's something you're born with, not something you can acquire. Finally, his message is universal; there are non-benders all over the world that could get behind Amon's message of equality.
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Robotman
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 09, 2014 12:34 pm »

Tarrlok is a weaker version of Amon... So no way would he win out of the 5 people that you named.

Unalaq is a fantastic water bender and blood bending doesn't work on water benders who have the same skill level as the person using blood bending, therefore I would think that blood bending would be useless on Unalaq. We didn't get to see any of Amon's actual water bending so I don't know how he actually fights without it.

Zaheer with flying (into the void mode) is honestly one of the most powerful characters in the series but I'm not sure what would happen to him against a blood bender. Blood bending is so OP that the only people that can resist it and break free of its control are Avatars and superior/equal level water benders, so I don't think that he would be able to beat Amon or even Tarrlok.

Kuvira is honestly my favourite villain and its so funny because she has only been properly seen in one episode and I have already come to the conclusion that she is my favourite, she has even overtaken Azula for me and I love Azula and we have had 2 series with her lol. Kuvira is deffo a master earth/metal bender but she is in the same position as Zaheer, I have no idea how she would counter blood bending unless she got the first move and managed to use her metal blinding bending lol. Also we haven't seen enough of Kuvira to know how strong she is yet.

Overall I think it would be Amon (with blood bending) > Unalaq (with spirit bending) > Tarrlok (with blood bending) > Kurvira = Zaheer (with flying).

If we were to take away all the special moves (flying, blood bending and spirit bending) from what I have seen so far, it would be Kuvira = Unalaq > Zaheer (still has air bending) > Amon > Tarrlok.
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ThaiOzai
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 09, 2014 01:05 pm »

@Robotman, you ought to read the first post more carefully  Cheesy
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« Reply #4 on: Oct 09, 2014 01:17 pm »

@Robotman, you ought to read the first post more carefully  Cheesy

LMFAO... HAHA!!! I really didn't read it at all, I just read the thread title and made a comment. My bad Tongue.
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« Reply #5 on: Oct 09, 2014 01:22 pm »

We don't really know enough about Kuvira's ideology to say much of anything. Tarrlok doesn't really have an ideology other than "I want to be in charge". Same with Unalaq.

So it'd be between Amon and Zaheer.


From them, I'd say Zaheer's "complete chaos and no world leaders" ideology is too extreme to appeal to most people, whereas Amon could make legit points about bending being dangerous and about how the world might be better off with no benders.


So at this point I'd lean toward Amon. Kuvira might be a contender once we find out more about her.
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 09, 2014 01:26 pm »

Well, it depends on their speaking points, I guess.

For starters, we don't know Kuvira's ideology/reason for actions, other than unification.

Amon: Equalize the world, wipe bending out b/c it has been the reason for every war. Its an unfair advantage.
Unalaq: Re-combine spiritual and physical world.
Zaheer: Overthrow the government systems that are designed to oppress us.
Kuvira: ? Unification?


I think Zaheer and/or Amon would be the ones to really fight it out. They have the most appealing "recruitment pitches". Zaheer may have the slight advantage here because his message reaches a wider audience (all oppressed benders and non-benders).

Unalaq would likely get the prize for the "Most Un-Appealing Sales Pitch". It is in reference to something only he "knows/understands". The vast majority of the population does not see anything wrong with the way they are living and would probably be unlikely to change their ways because some random spiritual guru said the old ways are better.

Kuvira is almost in the same boat. What is her motivational philosophy? It seems self-serving, really.

Tarrlok is the opposite of Amon and would likely get support from the bending establishment. But, it appears that it is small, comparatively. If we are talking about the total amount of resources that each would be able to mobilize, then he may win.  The combined monied interests of the Bending Establishment would likely outweigh the collective resources of the non-benders.

This is also based upon the assumption that Amon was right, and that benders are able to use their bending to get a leg up on everyone else.
« Last Edit: Oct 09, 2014 01:29 pm by ALTA_FAN » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: Oct 09, 2014 01:36 pm »

Unalaq easily. Quite possibly the most powerful water bender shown in the Avatar universe.


Edit: Just read the actual question. I would still say Unalaq as he has that thing about him where he seems like he could sway an audience easily with rhetoric, he also has a strong presence about him. I wouldn't be surprised if he could convince an audience that 10000 years of darkness is a good thing. I'm not sure if people would follow Amon as easily in real life as they do on the show since he wears a mask which gives the sense that he is hiding something or distancing himself from the common man, making him less relate able. Tarrlok sounds like a real politician. Zaheer wouldn't be allowed to debate and would be labeled a terrorist and I don't yet have any opinion on Kuvira.

Of course we don't know what the debate is about.
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zoro07
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 09, 2014 01:46 pm »

Unalaq easily. Quite possibly the most powerful water bender shown in the Avatar universe.


Edit: Just read the actual question. I would still say Unalaq as he has that thing about him where he seems like he could sway an audience easily with rhetoric, he also has a strong presence about him. I wouldn't be surprised if he could convince an audience that 10000 years of darkness is a good thing. I'm not sure if people would follow Amon as easily in real life as they do on the show since he wears a mask which gives the sense that he is hiding something or distancing himself from the common man, making him less relate able. Tarrlok sounds like a real politician. Zaheer wouldn't be allowed to debate and would be labeled a terrorist and I don't yet have any opinion on Kuvira.

Of course we don't know what the debate is about.

Unalaq could sway an audience?

I dunno about this one. I mean I've watched all of Season 2 and I still don't know what Unalaq's motivation is (other than just being power hungry) or why he wanted to be the Dark Avatar.
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 09, 2014 02:34 pm »

Unalaq easily. Quite possibly the most powerful water bender shown in the Avatar universe.


Edit: Just read the actual question. I would still say Unalaq as he has that thing about him where he seems like he could sway an audience easily with rhetoric, he also has a strong presence about him. I wouldn't be surprised if he could convince an audience that 10000 years of darkness is a good thing. I'm not sure if people would follow Amon as easily in real life as they do on the show since he wears a mask which gives the sense that he is hiding something or distancing himself from the common man, making him less relate able. Tarrlok sounds like a real politician. Zaheer wouldn't be allowed to debate and would be labeled a terrorist and I don't yet have any opinion on Kuvira.

Of course we don't know what the debate is about.

The debate is about their ideologies and who has the best one.

And Amon hid his face because of a supposed firebending scar. Apparently, a lot of people can relate to extortion from a firebender.

The thought experiment, as I understand it, is that you put the entire world's population in one room (it's a very large room). Then, each antagonist gives their sales pitch, as to why their POV is the best/whatever. The person who gains the support of the biggest group of people wins.

YOU are to decide who has the best chance of winning.
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 09, 2014 02:48 pm »

As of right now I have to pick Amon. He is the most charismatic of everyone mentioned and knows how to use it to his advantage. Keep in mind that the Equalist didn't follow Amon out of fear but admiration. They genuinely believed in the world he wanted to create. If you're a non bender in the Avatarverse, I could see why people would join him. As much as I like Zaheer, good luck with trying to promote anarchy. The world needs structure and most sane people realize this. We still don't know enough about Kuvira yet. I'm still not entirely sure what Unalaq's motivation was. Not to mention the guy had the personality of a stump. So overall I think Amon would be the victor.
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« Reply #11 on: Oct 09, 2014 03:46 pm »

Unalaq, Tarrlok, and Kuvira have the greatest qualities of large scale leadership, out in the open and right there for you. Zaheer and Amon have the best "behind closed doors" type of pitch.

That said, while Unalaq and Tarrlok could possibly make a good fight for their cause (Unalaq through grandiose and rhetoric, Tarrlok through manipulation of power, public opinion, and similar rhetoric to Unalaq), neither would stand forever against their foes. Mainly because both of them stand behind a status quo, an ideal of power, and both of them wish to achieve some sort of dominance over others. They don't give much return for everyone else either. The most they truly offer, beyond all the show and flash, is stability and maybe some monetary advantages to minor groups such as benders, people of the northern water tribe who could profit from the south, people wishing for instant travel between poles, and zealous spirit worshiping type people.

The people they are going up against would be very different. You have Amon, who not only offer something truly wanted by many many people, but also offers it in the form of an extremism he has proven capable of carrying out. He appeals to a large group of people and is not only a good speaker but also great with people and strategies. Just watch the Revelation over again and realize how chilling the implications of what he says are. Honestly a good number of people in Unalaqs crowd (spirit lovers) would probably drift to his side just because of his claim to be gifted by them. He appeals to lots of people, has claims he is capable of carrying out, and offers a lot to people in a world wanting a change in the the status quo and who is in power.

Zaheer while an anarchist which many with common sense would dislike, really comes through with his own actions. Similar to Amon he proves capable of taking a stand, and its great for his cause because he also doesn't take the spot light. This can be good and bad for sure, but overall, given the world and the reaction to his actions we see, I have no doubt that he would also hold up.

Kuvira is still relatively unknown. From what I have seen though, I think she will come out on top. In a world wanting stability but change, she delivers a bit of both. She pleases people and through force, "kindness", manipulation and power in command she not only demonstrates winning qualities of both Amon and Zaheer but also of Unalaq and Tarrlok . Honestly, if she keeps up as she has, I have no doubt she trumps this list. She isn't an extremist, but she isn't simply more of the same in peoples eyes. She is a savior and hero (amon), a destroyer of old systems (zaheer), and a leader to be followed by people looking or profit or power (tarrlok and unalaq).

Again though, I can't really judge on Kuvira yet and depending where her character is taken she could fall horribly or rise greatly. So as it stands, I would say Amon and Zaheer would be major competitors after its all said and done, with Amon winning out in the crowds and masses.   
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 09, 2014 08:59 pm »

Amon would be able to win the masses. I personally don't think Tarrlok belongs on the list. He wanted power plain and simple.
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« Reply #13 on: Oct 09, 2014 10:42 pm »

Unalaq easily. Quite possibly the most powerful water bender shown in the Avatar universe.


Edit: Just read the actual question. I would still say Unalaq as he has that thing about him where he seems like he could sway an audience easily with rhetoric, he also has a strong presence about him. I wouldn't be surprised if he could convince an audience that 10000 years of darkness is a good thing. I'm not sure if people would follow Amon as easily in real life as they do on the show since he wears a mask which gives the sense that he is hiding something or distancing himself from the common man, making him less relate able. Tarrlok sounds like a real politician. Zaheer wouldn't be allowed to debate and would be labeled a terrorist and I don't yet have any opinion on Kuvira.

Of course we don't know what the debate is about.

The debate is about their ideologies and who has the best one.

And Amon hid his face because of a supposed firebending scar. Apparently, a lot of people can relate to extortion from a firebender.

The thought experiment, as I understand it, is that you put the entire world's population in one room (it's a very large room). Then, each antagonist gives their sales pitch, as to why their POV is the best/whatever. The person who gains the support of the biggest group of people wins.

YOU are to decide who has the best chance of winning.

If it came down to ideologies, I believe Unalaq would win as long as he doesn't mention anything darkness related. Just look at the amount of depraved people today who search for some type of spirituality.

Amon sounds far too socialistic and would only gain followers from a small portion of the public (non benders). And I seriously don't see how anyone could vote for someone they know nothing about (history wise) and who wears a mask.
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 09, 2014 10:55 pm »

^You seem to be neglecting the fact that socialism normally wins with the uneducated masses who don't know anything about history in the first place (therefore it doesn't matter so much if Amon doesn't know history). Also, can we actually list a war in Avatar history that didn't involved bending as a partial cause for division?
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« Reply #15 on: Oct 10, 2014 12:42 am »

^You seem to be neglecting the fact that socialism normally wins with the uneducated masses who don't know anything about history in the first place (therefore it doesn't matter so much if Amon doesn't know history). Also, can we actually list a war in Avatar history that didn't involved bending as a partial cause for division?

Well I'm not sure how different the avatar world is to the real one so I'm not sure how uneducated the masses are. But I'm interested to know what the ratio of benders to non benders are because my guess is that the benders outnumber the non benders by a lot so that is already a large number of the population that Amon has isolated.
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« Reply #16 on: Oct 10, 2014 01:07 am »

Out of all the villains, I say Unalaq has the weakness case. If it wasn't for his royal brithright, I doubt he would've gotten very far, politically. While his goal in uniting the phyiscal and spirit world is an worthwhile idea, we saw with Unalaq's little blockade and subsequent takeover of the southern tribe, the man was completely apathetic to human concerns and the people knew it, if the attempted assassinations within the week of his arrival proved anything. If we were talking a no-holds-all-or-nothing melee of destruction, Unavatuu would wipe the floor, no doubt about it. But winning the public over? Unleashing the Spirit of Darkness for ten-thousand years isn't exactly a campaign most folks would be willing to jump behind.        

Tarrlok would fare better in my opinion, he has the resources and charisma to win support as well as the know-how to weasel his way out when his back is against the wall. However, similar to the Water Chef, Tarrlok is ultimately self-serving. What goal is he working towards, aside from gaining more power for himself? How does he appeal to the masses? Sure, he could play the other council-members (minus Tenzin) like a fiddle, but what if he was genuinely challenged? Forced into a debate he couldn't blackmail or bloodbend himself out of? Tarrlok is a politician through and though, but I can't see him lasting long when faced off against opponents promising stability, equality and freedom of tyranny.

Like his brother, Amon has a silver-tongue, what sets them apart however, is his ability to work a crowd in his favor. He stands for equality, promising change the council have failed to deliver, presenting himself as both a savior and an everyman to the public. Unlike Tarrlok, Amon did not gain his followers through threats, but because of their own genuine adoration of him and what he represented. Based solely to their ideology, Amon is clearly in the lead.

Similar to the Equalist, Zaheer promises change, but instead of a new world order, it's the complete destruction of it. The Airbender would make for an interesting politician, he has the calm, polite demeanor and level-headiness you would want in a leader, but his dreams of anarchy are almost as outlandish as Unalag's idea of paradise, if not more so. Granted, Zaheer knows how to sell a world without government on paper, his speech in the spirit grove to Korra does make total chaos sound ideal. But when it comes to practicing what he preaches though, I can only see a handful of die-hards like his fellow Red Lotus actually subscribing to this ideology in the long-term.

Kuvira is the hardest to pin, considering how little we've seen of her so far. Although based on what's known, she's more then a force to be reckoned with. She has the political clout to rival royalty, a beacon of hope in time of uncertainty to her followers and an unholy terror to her enemies. Kuvira has accomplished more this season then any previous villain. Wan only knows where everybody's favorite warlord will go from here.

When it comes right down to it, I believe Kuvira and Amon are neck and neck. One earns loyalty through intimidation, the other through admiration. Like the old saying goes, is it better for a leader to be loved or feared by their people?  
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2014 11:05 pm by Avatar Lizzy » Logged


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« Reply #17 on: Oct 10, 2014 01:15 am »

When it comes right down to it, I believe Kuvira and Amon are neck and neck. One earns loyalty through intimation, the other through admiration. Like the old saying goes, is it better for a leader to be loved or feared by their people? 

I'd have to agree here. I think their two platforms are the strongest considering the state of their world. The interesting battle who be on the issue of equality. Likely Kuvira would have to argue for a difficult unify, but improve your abilities; meanwhile, Amon would likely appeal to leveling the field and getting the controversy over with. The lynch pin might be Amon's strong feelings as he might leap into action too quickly (which he never seems to have the temper for), and scare off his adherents. Then again he could also attract more using such an approach.
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« Reply #18 on: Oct 10, 2014 01:35 am »

One thing you have to realise with Amon is that he is a charismatic speaker and his charisma could be his downfall. He presents the idea of a perfect world which many see as false.

Hitler was probably the pinnacle of a charismatic speaker he always showed immense strength and power when speaking which to the German people may have looked like a godsend but to the the rest of the world and to the people now seen as completely insane. Its like he is putting on a theatrical performance which may act as a shroud (much like his mask).
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 10, 2014 01:48 am »

One thing you have to realise with Amon is that he is a charismatic speaker and his charisma could be his downfall. He presents the idea of a perfect world which many see as false.

Hitler was probably the pinnacle of a charismatic speaker he always showed immense strength and power when speaking which to the German people may have looked like a godsend but to the the rest of the world and to the people now seen as completely insane. Its like he is putting on a theatrical performance which may act as a shroud (much like his mask).
Putting history in perspective, part of the reason Germany didn't see the insane side as much was distraction via internal concerns the rest of the world didn't have, which were many and would get us off topic if I went into in detail.

Still the same you are right, Amon's strongest critics would be Logos debaters. Though I still voted he'd charismatically win. Wink
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« Reply #20 on: Oct 10, 2014 05:36 am »

Well, let's see here: I believe it all boils down to who the target audience is for each of these characters.
Their scopes of influence vary greatly as what their agendas do not affect the same type of people. The crowds they cater to are very different, hence a "neutral" audience will not be able to truly appreciate the meaning of their causes.

Therefore, I think that what would distinguish each character would be their personality and charisma first and foremost. Followed by the feasibility of their agenda.

* Amon is high on charisma. He speaks boldly with a lot of self-assurance and even has direct personal experience about the cause he is trying to defend. It makes him RELATABLE, even to a neutral. However, those qualities could end up masking the extreme nature of his cause.

* Tarrlock is a politician so he has the know-how to sway people to his cause using rhetorics. He is also charismatic but not as much as his brother; he doesn't really have the "relatable" side to his story. And he can come off as smug and haughty.

* Unalaq is royalty and clearly is not relatable to the mass. He will come short when it comes to convincing a large scale audience merely because of his background. His cause is also quite far-fetched and can easily alienate a great deal of people in the world they live in.

* Zaheer is an anarchist by heart and thus is in the minority. The majority of people in the Avatar world believe in structure - they have their political systems that encompasses various hierarchies. Even if some systems may be seen as tyranical, there are seldom uprises meaning that the mass are generally content. This is why I don't see Zaheer making an appealing case in front of a neutral audience. He does speak charismatically though, one must give him that.

* Kuvira wants a New Order in the Earth Kingdom, and many would agree with her, even non EK citizens. However, her approach could upset a few and she could be seen as cold and manipulative. A mix of a military general and a sly politician. For her, the ends justify the means, at all cost.

All in all, I believe that Amon takes this because of his relatable nature and huge charisma. These qualities usually blindside audiences as appearance sways people more easily.
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« Reply #21 on: Oct 10, 2014 06:25 am »

Right now it's got to be Amon for sure. His case is simple and relatable to many. And he's shown he's perfectly capable of reinterpreting the 100 year war from a conflict between nations and ideologies to benders opressing nonbenders.

I imagine Kuvira might eventually top the list, but as has been said by a few people in this thread already, we don't really know that much about what she plans to do long term, she might plan to reinstate the monarchy, she might want to build a republic or even just a military dictatorship of metalbenders. Being the one person in the world who's bringing peace, order and lots of food is definitely going to be appealing though
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« Reply #22 on: Oct 10, 2014 03:57 pm »

Amon got a foothold because while he framed the problems wrong there WERE problems, unaddressed by a privisional method of government outlasting its.. well emergency issues.  The URN was its own nation needing its own specific representation. not jusst a meeting of diverse and contested territories of the 100 year war.

Unalaq was as much a response of owe s**t new nations as he was "ah the cosmic alignment is coming better finally get on that"

Unalaq's traditionalism only kinda eased through and there is a reason he often had to sandbag things.  He doesn't have a drop of his brother's public appeal.  Even his own kids are at odds with him.

By contrast Zaheer seems perfect.  You figure he's a freedom fighter or a triad recruiter but a reasonable one.  And then you find out how deep he goes, how dedicated he goes or you become the slightest liability.  But he can easily appeal to any people and make lovely speeches.  But I don't think he'll beat Amon so long as he's offering revenge versus anniilation.
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« Reply #23 on: Oct 10, 2014 11:02 pm »

I do believe Kuvira has the best chance of all because in appearsance at least, she presents herself in a much more balanced position that is more attractive to the average citizen. Amon may have been popular, but he was an extremist and as such those who didn't agree with him would appose him directly. If you were to put them all in a real world political debate, well... most of them would be deemed crazy. Unalaq used totalitarian methods, Amon used terrorist methods, Zaheer and co, were a much more chaotic version of Unalaq...

Amon has gotten the most popular vote in the poll but most people are probably choosing him because they are judging them as characters, not how their political ideals would fare. Really, Unalaq and the RL never even used a political strategy per se. They both ised their superior power to take advantage. Tarrlok and Kuvira, politically speaken are much better candidates by far, because they present themselves in a way that they garner popularity from the masses, but still work in the boundaries of the law. That puts Amon at a serious disadvantage, because the Equalists quite literally took down the opposition. That is not exactly a "political" move.
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« Reply #24 on: Oct 10, 2014 11:20 pm »

Amon's biggest issue would be the very focused nature of his ideology, and the massive logical holes in it. So he could only address a relatively small number of people (desperate/dumb, 'feels oppressed', and non-bender), and even then, his ideology is a self-generating hyperbole that probably can't survive any meaningful ideological challenge. It was good for Amon/Noatak to gain power, but really, it was its whole purpose.

Kuvira and Zaheer on the other hand speak about much more general things that can address literally everyone. Even if you are a piss-poor non-bender scavenger in the RC sewers terrorized by criminals, you will still wish for an absolute freedom of choice (Zaheer) and/or an absolute order (Kuvira). Here, Zaheer would probably have the advantage of having a very "open" ideology, so it would endure challenges easier than Kuvira's more rigid views, so I think Zaheer would be the overall winner.

Tarrlok was just a sleazy politician with no clearly defined ideology, so I don't think that he is even a contender here. Unalaq might have a chance with his traditionalism, but Zaheer already has this covered.
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Keeper of Suki's firebending ancestry, the Kyoshi Warrior dojo, the love potion made from rainbows and sunsets and the mecha tanks.

My fanficions.

My Avatar RPG system.
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