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Author Topic: why did Zuko go to Ozai for advice instead of Mai in the promise?  (Read 8886 times)
Loopy
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 28, 2014 05:36 pm »

I don't see how "understandable" makes a good story. If we want realism, Zuko should be locked in a decaying orbit around his father that he'll never escape, and will go on to beat his own kids.

Happy endings are for plebs.
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nightingale
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 29, 2014 11:24 pm »

I don't see how "understandable" makes a good story. If we want realism, Zuko should be locked in a decaying orbit around his father that he'll never escape, and will go on to beat his own kids.

Happy endings are for plebs.

Roll Eyes You have a very dark imagination.
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But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow... I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.

-Puddleglum, The Silver Chair
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« Reply #27 on: Oct 30, 2014 05:26 pm »

It's my imagination that, according to statistics, abused children are more likely to become abusers themselves?
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Chinoiserie
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« Reply #28 on: Oct 30, 2014 07:57 pm »

There are lies, white lies and statistics.

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Ikkin
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« Reply #29 on: Oct 31, 2014 06:19 am »

It's my imagination that, according to statistics, abused children are more likely to become abusers themselves?

Abused children are more likely to become abusers than children who weren't abused.  However, they're much more likely to be abused again than they are to become abusers.
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Loopy
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« Reply #30 on: Nov 01, 2014 01:47 pm »

So since Aang, Katara, and Toph were all abusively neglectful to their children, it's only realistic that Zuko was an even worse abuser to his daughter.

It's nice and realistic, so that I know I'm reading mature stories for adults like me.
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Misty23
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« Reply #31 on: Nov 02, 2014 07:42 am »

I completely disagree if anything after all the horrible things he went through in his childhood im sure Zuko did everything to not be like his father and be a great parent.
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Loopy
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« Reply #32 on: Nov 03, 2014 05:57 pm »

Well, yes, that's what would be a good, rewarding story.

But I thought we were talking about "realism," and using it to justify rehashing the same plot points over and over?
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nightingale
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« Reply #33 on: Nov 11, 2014 05:00 am »

Well, yes, that's what would be a good, rewarding story.

But I thought we were talking about "realism," and using it to justify rehashing the same plot points over and over?

But you forget that Zuko had another father: Iroh. How abused children end up behaving afterwards is very circumstancial. Those who get therapy and learn how to deal with their abuse in healthy ways can become loving parents. Zuko had Iroh on his side, and his presence was what truly changed everything. Also, each person responds to abuse differently.
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But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow... I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.

-Puddleglum, The Silver Chair
Loopy
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« Reply #34 on: Dec 05, 2014 12:48 am »

So, wait, Zuko might respond to abuse differently, so he didn't need to go Ozai in order to have a realistic story, and Zuko sees Iroh as such an influence that he should be a greater influence than Ozai for things like statecraft?

Huh, it's almost like The Promise didn't get Zuko's character right at all. Smiley
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nightingale
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« Reply #35 on: Dec 07, 2014 02:58 am »

So, wait, Zuko might respond to abuse differently, so he didn't need to go Ozai in order to have a realistic story, and Zuko sees Iroh as such an influence that he should be a greater influence than Ozai for things like statecraft?

Huh, it's almost like The Promise didn't get Zuko's character right at all. Smiley

I think Zuko is simply subconsciously still trying to reconnect with Ozai. Seeking his advice is an excuse to see him. He even admits in The Search that he feels guilty that he has his own family in prison. Also, to be fair, he didn't follow Ozai's advice at the end.
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But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow... I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.

-Puddleglum, The Silver Chair
Loopy
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« Reply #36 on: Dec 08, 2014 04:40 pm »

That's the problem that runs through all the comics, though. There's a hint of something interesting going on in the background with the characters, but then it doesn't really come to any resolution, while the overt themes of the stories wind up contradicting that interesting bit.

It makes me think that there's no subtlety at all, and we just have subpar storytelling.
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nightingale
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« Reply #37 on: Dec 08, 2014 09:26 pm »

That's the problem that runs through all the comics, though. There's a hint of something interesting going on in the background with the characters, but then it doesn't really come to any resolution, while the overt themes of the stories wind up contradicting that interesting bit.

It makes me think that there's no subtlety at all, and we just have subpar storytelling.

Unfortunately you are right. This is particularly true in The Search, that is the first Avatar comic that induced hype in me, but never lived up. I do hope that the new comics have a higher level of qualotu, considering that Bryke will no longer be involved in the production of a show.
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But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow... I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.

-Puddleglum, The Silver Chair
Misty23
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« Reply #38 on: Dec 09, 2014 04:46 pm »

That's the problem that runs through all the comics, though. There's a hint of something interesting going on in the background with the characters, but then it doesn't really come to any resolution, while the overt themes of the stories wind up contradicting that interesting bit.

It makes me think that there's no subtlety at all, and we just have subpar storytelling.

agreed. I do like having the comics  and even thought the rift part 3 was somewhat enjoyable. It is my least favourite trilogy if im honest though. I am really looking forward to smoke and shadow I think if written properlyit has a lot of potential.

My only concern is that Gene could potentially ruin all what we love about atla I really hope it doesn't come to that though and he does something useful with the characters.
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Furudo Erika
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« Reply #39 on: Dec 09, 2014 04:52 pm »

Quote
My only concern is that Gene could potentially ruin all what we love about atla I really hope it doesn't come to that though and he does something useful with the characters.

Something cannot be ruined by a future release. No matter how bad the comics are going to seem to your eyes, it has zero power over the original show. It simply can't ruin it.
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #40 on: Dec 09, 2014 05:03 pm »

It still ruined Maiko and other things like that.
It can't ruin the show but it can do damages to what's after the show.
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Furudo Erika
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« Reply #41 on: Dec 09, 2014 05:06 pm »

Quote
It can't ruin the show but it can do damages to what's after the show.

That's exactly what I'm saying.
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #42 on: Dec 09, 2014 05:08 pm »

Yeah but boy, it still ruined it badly.
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Featuring : Polaris, Zyrax HikaruIzumi, Blue Warpath, Prophet of Doom, Weegee the Airbender, TyLuko4Ever, Johan, Riptide, SunxFire and AtoMaki : D
nightingale
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« Reply #43 on: Dec 09, 2014 06:45 pm »

It still ruined Maiko and other things like that.
It can't ruin the show but it can do damages to what's after the show.

It has left Maiko unfinished, not ruined. I will still give them a chance for this future release. Perhaps it will surprise us, considering we won't have any more Avatar other than the comics for now.
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But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow... I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.

-Puddleglum, The Silver Chair
Loopy
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« Reply #44 on: Dec 09, 2014 06:52 pm »

Quote
My only concern is that Gene could potentially ruin all what we love about atla I really hope it doesn't come to that though and he does something useful with the characters.

Something cannot be ruined by a future release. No matter how bad the comics are going to seem to your eyes, it has zero power over the original show. It simply can't ruin it.

I think you're wrong. New material can't go back and change what came before, but it can affect audience perception of some stuff.

Like, for example, the scene in the finale just before Zuko is crowned, where he and Aang share some words and then a hug. They simply say that they're "friends," but to me there was a warmth to the whole scene that made it more like, "Best Buds 4eva." That's my interpretation of the scene, and with nothing to contradict it, it was able to stand, even if other Avatar fans didn't agree with me.

Then The Promise comes along, and before Aang has heard anything about why Zuko is shutting down the Harmony Restoration Movement, he and Roku are already discussing murdering Zuko. When Aang and Zuko finally meet, Zuko sees Aang fighting the Firebender soldiers (who were under orders to kill Aang?) and assumes that the Avatar has come to ruin everything.

That ruined the scene in the finale for me. Because it shows that- since The Promise is canon and approved by the 'creators' of ATLA- my reading of that original scene is just plain wrong. It wasn't that warm, Zuko and Aang are merely "friends" the way I'm "friends" with the dude in the cubicle next to mine at work who I don't really know, and their bond is weak enough that they trust rumor over each other's character.

So yeah, the comics ruined ATLA for me.

I can't ignore them, because the intention of that original scene is now known to me. I can't watch it and enjoy it the same way, because the context of the scene has changed.

It's why movies have deleted scenes. The story that the final editor/producer wants to tell can be subtly shaped by those scenes, and how they're arranged, and what exactly is included. The Mike and the Bryan have put their stamp on additional context and scenes that really does change what came before.

And the new version is worse. In most cases.


It still ruined Maiko and other things like that.
It can't ruin the show but it can do damages to what's after the show.

It has left Maiko unfinished, not ruined. I will still give them a chance for this future release. Perhaps it will surprise us, considering we won't have any more Avatar other than the comics for now.

Cartoon Maiko had a terrible ending, anyway. Mai showed her full devotion to Maiko by attempting to literally die for Zuko, while Zuko was all, "LOL I guess they let you out of prison? Come here and give me some sugar, sugar."

Fingers crossed that the resolution the comic gives us something better.
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Misty23
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« Reply #45 on: Dec 09, 2014 07:23 pm »

Lool so true. I know in the interview he said we see if she gets back with him or moves on from her implying its really uo to her but I hope its not all just her like the cartoon ending..that kind of bugged me a bit that he didn't seem very concerned considering she just risked her life. As much as I like Maiko I hope he actually shows more genuine Interest and concern towards Mai in these new comics their relationship seems really one sided.

And I stand by what I said earlier regarding bad comics affecting atla. On a positive note Gene's writing has improved so I am hopeful..I wonder how many more trilogies they will do before they decide to do a time skip.

other than SW I don't see much else, unless they actually show early stages of RC..I actually kind of wanna see the Kyoshi warriors again not an entire comic just about them but just included sonwehere in one of the trilogies.
« Last Edit: Dec 09, 2014 07:27 pm by Misty23 » Logged
Loopy
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« Reply #46 on: Dec 09, 2014 07:28 pm »

Yeah, as much as I'm bored by The Rift (I'll read Part 3 when I need to add it to an Amazon order to get free shipping), I think Gene introduced conflict between Aang and Toph successfully without ruining anything that came before. Here's hoping he continues that trend.
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nightingale
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« Reply #47 on: Dec 09, 2014 09:24 pm »

Quote
My only concern is that Gene could potentially ruin all what we love about atla I really hope it doesn't come to that though and he does something useful with the characters.

Something cannot be ruined by a future release. No matter how bad the comics are going to seem to your eyes, it has zero power over the original show. It simply can't ruin it.

I think you're wrong. New material can't go back and change what came before, but it can affect audience perception of some stuff.

Like, for example, the scene in the finale just before Zuko is crowned, where he and Aang share some words and then a hug. They simply say that they're "friends," but to me there was a warmth to the whole scene that made it more like, "Best Buds 4eva." That's my interpretation of the scene, and with nothing to contradict it, it was able to stand, even if other Avatar fans didn't agree with me.

Then The Promise comes along, and before Aang has heard anything about why Zuko is shutting down the Harmony Restoration Movement, he and Roku are already discussing murdering Zuko. When Aang and Zuko finally meet, Zuko sees Aang fighting the Firebender soldiers (who were under orders to kill Aang?) and assumes that the Avatar has come to ruin everything.

That ruined the scene in the finale for me. Because it shows that- since The Promise is canon and approved by the 'creators' of ATLA- my reading of that original scene is just plain wrong. It wasn't that warm, Zuko and Aang are merely "friends" the way I'm "friends" with the dude in the cubicle next to mine at work who I don't really know, and their bond is weak enough that they trust rumor over each other's character.

So yeah, the comics ruined ATLA for me.

I can't ignore them, because the intention of that original scene is now known to me. I can't watch it and enjoy it the same way, because the context of the scene has changed.

It's why movies have deleted scenes. The story that the final editor/producer wants to tell can be subtly shaped by those scenes, and how they're arranged, and what exactly is included. The Mike and the Bryan have put their stamp on additional context and scenes that really does change what came before.

And the new version is worse. In most cases.


It still ruined Maiko and other things like that.
It can't ruin the show but it can do damages to what's after the show.

It has left Maiko unfinished, not ruined. I will still give them a chance for this future release. Perhaps it will surprise us, considering we won't have any more Avatar other than the comics for now.

Cartoon Maiko had a terrible ending, anyway. Mai showed her full devotion to Maiko by attempting to literally die for Zuko, while Zuko was all, "LOL I guess they let you out of prison? Come here and give me some sugar, sugar."

Fingers crossed that the resolution the comic gives us something better.

I understand your point regarding Zuko and Aang's friendship, and it did bother me that Roku and Aang were discussing murdering a relative with such calm and ease. It would have been ridiculous if it had been a fanfic, but considering that it is canon, I can't help but to find it disturbing. But Zuko's and Aang's relationship, although badly handled at the beginning, felt somewhat organic, considering that they had not been friends for too long. And at the end, their friendship ended up well.
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But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow... I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.

-Puddleglum, The Silver Chair
colle
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« Reply #48 on: Dec 10, 2014 01:34 pm »

Lool so true. I know in the interview he said we see if she gets back with him or moves on from her implying its really uo to her but I hope its not all just her like the cartoon ending..that kind of bugged me a bit that he didn't seem very concerned considering she just risked her life. As much as I like Maiko I hope he actually shows more genuine Interest and concern towards Mai in these new comics their relationship seems really one sided.


The next comic book arc is going to give Zuko another opportunity to show concern for Mai, I imagine that might factor in what Mai decides(if she wants to get back together or not). Hopefully, they will have a chance to at least talk about how things left off, and Zuko could apologize so even if they don't get back together they will end on a better note.
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