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Author Topic: Koh & Mother of Faces (Search spoilers)  (Read 10336 times)
Loopy
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« Reply #25 on: Apr 03, 2014 06:42 pm »

Ugh, they're the worst kind. Tongue
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longman83
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« Reply #26 on: Apr 04, 2014 07:46 am »

Hmm...

Maybe Koh's identity as the Face Stealer is his attempt to correct the 'imbalance' of his separation from his mother by adopting the antithesis of her identity (in keeping with the whole 'opposites attract', yin-yang concept).

His birth could also have coincided with a chaotic period in the spirit world caused by the Raava/Vaatu contest, which somehow separated him from the Mother of Faces before she could give him an identity. Hence, he bases his identity on stealing the identities of others. Problem with this is that living beings we've seen that lost their identities are just hollow shells with no agency at all..
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« Reply #27 on: Apr 04, 2014 08:13 am »

I actually think that MOF gave birth to Koh so that he may intimidate people she don't trust. Like "I'll gave you a new face but if you use it for nefarious purposes, Koh will steal it."
Then, they got separated and he went out of control.
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« Reply #28 on: Apr 05, 2014 02:39 pm »

Hmm...

Maybe Koh's identity as the Face Stealer is his attempt to correct the 'imbalance' of his separation from his mother by adopting the antithesis of her identity (in keeping with the whole 'opposites attract', yin-yang concept).

His birth could also have coincided with a chaotic period in the spirit world caused by the Raava/Vaatu contest, which somehow separated him from the Mother of Faces before she could give him an identity. Hence, he bases his identity on stealing the identities of others. Problem with this is that living beings we've seen that lost their identities are just hollow shells with no agency at all..

Koh also seems a lot more active than Mother of Faces, so I wonder if there's an active imbalance by this point in time.


I actually think that MOF gave birth to Koh so that he may intimidate people she don't trust. Like "I'll gave you a new face but if you use it for nefarious purposes, Koh will steal it."
Then, they got separated and he went out of control.

Koh as Frankenstein's monster? Interesting.
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« Reply #29 on: Apr 05, 2014 03:15 pm »

Koh also seems a lot more active than Mother of Faces, so I wonder if there's an active imbalance by this point in time.

Is he though? MoF creates a unique face for every living thing, human or not, and if you think of how many organisms are born each and every day--hell, each and every second--that's a sh*tton of faces. Not to mention her whole one wish per season deal.

Koh steals like, what, one or two faces every century? We haven't really been given any solid details on how he operates so we can only really guess at this point, but from what we've seen his collection isn't exactly mind-blowing.
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« Reply #30 on: Apr 05, 2014 03:18 pm »

That's a good point, but does Mother of Faces give every human their face? I was under the impression that she just came up with the idea of faces and identity, and faces occurred naturally from there.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #31 on: Apr 05, 2014 03:41 pm »

That's a good point, but does Mother of Faces give every human their face?

Is she even a honest spirit? Just by looking at her son, she could be a troll in a sheep's clothing. I even have this theory that Ikem and Ursa didn't know each other until Ursa hired Ikem as her guide to the Forgetful Valley and their big relationship is in fact just some industrial-troll-tier brainwashing from the MoF.
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« Reply #32 on: Apr 05, 2014 03:50 pm »

She seems to be quite harsh, but, honestly, nearly all spirits seems to be douchebags who hates humans and enjoy finding new ways to hurt them.
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« Reply #33 on: Apr 06, 2014 01:52 pm »

That's a good point, but does Mother of Faces give every human their face?

Is she even a honest spirit? Just by looking at her son, she could be a troll in a sheep's clothing. I even have this theory that Ikem and Ursa didn't know each other until Ursa hired Ikem as her guide to the Forgetful Valley and their big relationship is in fact just some industrial-troll-tier brainwashing from the MoF.

Since the flashbacks are presented as the story Ursa tells Zuko after everything is done, this is a perfectly viable theory.

I may make this my headcanon. Cheesy
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #34 on: Apr 06, 2014 02:03 pm »

That's a good point, but does Mother of Faces give every human their face?

Is she even a honest spirit? Just by looking at her son, she could be a troll in a sheep's clothing. I even have this theory that Ikem and Ursa didn't know each other until Ursa hired Ikem as her guide to the Forgetful Valley and their big relationship is in fact just some industrial-troll-tier brainwashing from the MoF.

Since the flashbacks are presented as the story Ursa tells Zuko after everything is done, this is a perfectly viable theory.

I may make this my headcanon. Cheesy

Oh yes, and one more thing to this: Ikem's real name was not Ikem. 'Ikem' was in fact Ozai's alter-ego and Ursa wrote love letters to him to make their marriage a bit more... spicy Grin.
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« Reply #35 on: Apr 06, 2014 02:07 pm »

...you had me, and then you lost me. Tongue
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #36 on: Apr 06, 2014 02:31 pm »

...you had me, and then you lost me. Tongue

Ursa's letters to Ikem are still there, you have to explain those somehow. So here is the deal: Urzai was a decent relationship but it was also somewhat boring for both parties. Ursa began to write these love letters to 'Ikem' and Ozai "secretly intercepted" them. They were roleplaying, essentially.

And the MoF found this 'Ikem' in Ursa's memories when she changed her face, and turned the guide guy into  a real Ikem for the giggles.

And who got the worst out of this mess? Ozai of course, who is completely in the dark and knows nothing about the MoF/Ursa business. His face when Ikem visits him in the prison will be an artistic study for the future generations of Fire Nation philosophers.
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« Reply #37 on: Apr 06, 2014 02:44 pm »

I was going to consider the letter before going full headcanon, but Kinky Urzai Shenanigans is always my jumping off point. It's a fine for a joke, but hard to take seriously.
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« Reply #38 on: Apr 06, 2014 02:48 pm »

...you had me, and then you lost me. Tongue

Ursa's letters to Ikem are still there, you have to explain those somehow. So here is the deal: Urzai was a decent relationship but it was also somewhat boring for both parties. Ursa began to write these love letters to 'Ikem' and Ozai "secretly intercepted" them. They were roleplaying, essentially.

And the MoF found this 'Ikem' in Ursa's memories when she changed her face, and turned the guide guy into  a real Ikem for the giggles.

And who got the worst out of this mess? Ozai of course, who is completely in the dark and knows nothing about the MoF/Ursa business. His face when Ikem visits him in the prison will be an artistic study for the future generations of Fire Nation philosophers.

This face ?
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« Reply #39 on: Apr 06, 2014 03:00 pm »

I was going to consider the letter before going full headcanon, but Kinky Urzai Shenanigans is always my jumping off point. It's a fine for a joke, but hard to take seriously.

Well, if you don't care about the letters then you can drop this part entirely. I only included it because I'm still an Urzai shipper ( Cry) andb ecause the letters rustled my jimmies.

Alternatively, you can say that Ursa wrote those letters to annoy Ozai who in turn spent enormous amount of resources to hunt down this 'Ikem'.
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« Reply #40 on: Apr 06, 2014 03:07 pm »

I'll go with whatever lets me ignore the whole "I'll treat Zuko bad because you tried to make me think he wasn't my son" thing. Like I said, it will take a lot of thought. Cheesy

To get things back on topic, it is interesting that Mother of Faces forced Ursa to take a new history. I wonder if that means Koh is capable of stealing memories.
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« Reply #41 on: Apr 06, 2014 03:14 pm »

Probably, I always imagined that he also steal a person's soul with their faces :p
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« Reply #42 on: Apr 06, 2014 05:08 pm »

Shame we never found out from the monkey. Tongue
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« Reply #43 on: Apr 06, 2014 05:11 pm »

He threw barrels at Koh.
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« Reply #44 on: Apr 11, 2014 03:51 pm »

So you're saying that "power level" (ugh, I hate the implications behind that term) is what determines if a Spirit can travel between the material and spirit worlds without a portal? That makes a certain amount of sense, but I wonder what kind of power is being used, or if it can even be classified.

I'd prefer to think of Koh as a true monster, though, and not a basement-dwelling internet troll. Cheesy
Most *serial killers* really aren't hannibal lecter.  They kinda are pathetic and skeevy. Only they take actions or do things in a way that is hard to counteract. Same with Koh its only that he's so old and powerful or given to certain capacity that to us he seems like an existential superbeing.  Because he knows how to consume and affect identity and its expression he seems terrifying.  but really he might just be an ugly creep who collects things or attacks people because he can.

Power level here means level of portence scope.  Heibei is 'just' a forest spirit but has lazers, can cross over, make mystical forests of bamboo absirb and even transmute matter and monster forms ... BUUUUT is likely only able to do that with people she knows, near that forest and is limited in crossover and abilities to effect the material/human world the farther from a Solstice or similar spiritual event/holiday/alignment occurs.

Raava seems to define Light (and dark by containing or opposing Vaatu) and presumably while in dominance or having an influence can spread and alter the flow and behavior of energy in a "Light" way so long as able to resonate so from the general spiritual state or specific boosts (Jinora helping her reconstitute).  If "eldership" is based on what most precede so you can have defintion and the Mother of Faces word can be taken at value (she created division and identity) then she may be older than Raava and Vaatu as to have Light and Dark in struggle or prominence you must have division and identity even if to the edge that identity blends.

I'll go with whatever lets me ignore the whole "I'll treat Zuko bad because you tried to make me think he wasn't my son" thing. Like I said, it will take a lot of thought. Cheesy

To get things back on topic, it is interesting that Mother of Faces forced Ursa to take a new history. I wonder if that means Koh is capable of stealing memories.
Face means many things.  Likely, much like with the Mother its an emergent thing.  If he steals your face he can then affect all the rest of you similarly connected to it (your identity, health, awareness, vision, etc).  He can do it the brutal way (ala a human with knife for the Turkish mob) or be more...artful.
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« Reply #45 on: Apr 11, 2014 10:02 pm »

Most *serial killers* really aren't hannibal lecter.  They kinda are pathetic and skeevy. Only they take actions or do things in a way that is hard to counteract. Same with Koh its only that he's so old and powerful or given to certain capacity that to us he seems like an existential superbeing.  Because he knows how to consume and affect identity and its expression he seems terrifying.  but really he might just be an ugly creep who collects things or attacks people because he can.

You're characterizing things in human terms, though. For Koh, I'd like to blaze past Hannibal Lecter and go straight for something mythical and representative of something more.

Power level here means level of portence scope.  Heibei is 'just' a forest spirit but has lazers, can cross over, make mystical forests of bamboo absirb and even transmute matter and monster forms ... BUUUUT is likely only able to do that with people she knows, near that forest and is limited in crossover and abilities to effect the material/human world the farther from a Solstice or similar spiritual event/holiday/alignment occurs.

Interesting perspective. So you're hypothesizing that Heibai wouldn't have been able to react to the Fire Nation burning the forest if the Solstice weren't happening?

Raava seems to define Light (and dark by containing or opposing Vaatu) and presumably while in dominance or having an influence can spread and alter the flow and behavior of energy in a "Light" way so long as able to resonate so from the general spiritual state or specific boosts (Jinora helping her reconstitute).  If "eldership" is based on what most precede so you can have defintion and the Mother of Faces word can be taken at value (she created division and identity) then she may be older than Raava and Vaatu as to have Light and Dark in struggle or prominence you must have division and identity even if to the edge that identity blends.

I disagree. Light and Darkness definitely can exist before identity; identity is simply something that beings of intelligence use to reduce things to a manageable scope, but light and darkness are states that exist independent of anyone observing them. Same with Order and Chaos, or Preservation and Ruin.

I'll go with whatever lets me ignore the whole "I'll treat Zuko bad because you tried to make me think he wasn't my son" thing. Like I said, it will take a lot of thought. Cheesy

To get things back on topic, it is interesting that Mother of Faces forced Ursa to take a new history. I wonder if that means Koh is capable of stealing memories.
Face means many things.  Likely, much like with the Mother its an emergent thing.  If he steals your face he can then affect all the rest of you similarly connected to it (your identity, health, awareness, vision, etc).  He can do it the brutal way (ala a human with knife for the Turkish mob) or be more...artful.

Ooh, that's very interesting. That he doesn't torture the guy from The Search shows that Koh might be a merciful soul. Grin
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« Reply #46 on: Apr 11, 2014 10:37 pm »

Most *serial killers* really aren't hannibal lecter.  They kinda are pathetic and skeevy. Only they take actions or do things in a way that is hard to counteract. Same with Koh its only that he's so old and powerful or given to certain capacity that to us he seems like an existential superbeing.  Because he knows how to consume and affect identity and its expression he seems terrifying.  but really he might just be an ugly creep who collects things or attacks people because he can.

You're characterizing things in human terms, though. For Koh, I'd like to blaze past Hannibal Lecter and go straight for something mythical and representative of something more.


Most monsters aren't that though.  Medusa.  Tengu.  uhm the Boogiemen.  They are antagonistic maybe even have a history but their is no "point" to them.
Quote
Power level here means level of portence scope.  Heibei is 'just' a forest spirit but has lazers, can cross over, make mystical forests of bamboo absirb and even transmute matter and monster forms ... BUUUUT is likely only able to do that with people she knows, near that forest and is limited in crossover and abilities to effect the material/human world the farther from a Solstice or similar spiritual event/holiday/alignment occurs.

Interesting perspective. So you're hypothesizing that Heibai wouldn't have been able to react to the Fire Nation burning the forest if the Solstice weren't happening?

I believ that's the premise of her premiere episode.  Namely the Fire Nation screwed up her forest/sacred place so she went on a rampage on any nearby as a means to do something. Likely without that she'd have been reduced to just showing her image, maybe trying to communicate ala the Swamp to Aang.  Or Yangchen is trying in The Rift

Quote
Raava seems to define Light (and dark by containing or opposing Vaatu) and presumably while in dominance or having an influence can spread and alter the flow and behavior of energy in a "Light" way so long as able to resonate so from the general spiritual state or specific boosts (Jinora helping her reconstitute).  If "eldership" is based on what most precede so you can have defintion and the Mother of Faces word can be taken at value (she created division and identity) then she may be older than Raava and Vaatu as to have Light and Dark in struggle or prominence you must have division and identity even if to the edge that identity blends.

I disagree. Light and Darkness definitely can exist before identity; identity is simply something that beings of intelligence use to reduce things to a manageable scope, but light and darkness are states that exist independent of anyone observing them. Same with Order and Chaos, or Preservation and Ruin.

According to Mother there was literally no division of things before her actions.  To have Light and Dark you need a division and Vaatu and Raava's relationship is defined by and part of it.  But note even if locked in the tree of eternity Vaatu can effect spirits in the material world near the equator.  Thus he is a "Great Spirit" That's the kind of scope and range he has even defeated.  Raava presumably has similar.  So is The Mother who is part of everything with an identity.  At that level though you're dealing with concepual power.  I wouldn't be surprised if she wouldn't throw laser beams (even if though Heibai can) but she can do that trick with overshadowing (Danny phantom reference) all the creatures in the valley at once.  Likely everything at once (though given her "merciful" nature she would hate to do that as it would spoil her artwork) at the least without a boundary or an awareness Vaatu and Raava's relationship couldn't be the same as when Wan found them and as Raava described it.

Quote
I'll go with whatever lets me ignore the whole "I'll treat Zuko bad because you tried to make me think he wasn't my son" thing. Like I said, it will take a lot of thought. Cheesy

To get things back on topic, it is interesting that Mother of Faces forced Ursa to take a new history. I wonder if that means Koh is capable of stealing memories.
Face means many things.  Likely, much like with the Mother its an emergent thing.  If he steals your face he can then affect all the rest of you similarly connected to it (your identity, health, awareness, vision, etc).  He can do it the brutal way (ala a human with knife for the Turkish mob) or be more...artful.

Ooh, that's very interesting. That he doesn't torture the guy from The Search shows that Koh might be a merciful soul. Grin

He also didn't really hurt Aang.  LOOK AT THE SIZE OF HIM I doubt he needed a facial reaction to kill a twelve year old with no bending.  Aside from trying to troll him some he answered his questions and gave him information.. for nothing.  Compare to WST... who may literally just be spirit of a barn owl but "upgraded" himself by taking the natural tendency to observe and collect to become a paragon of knowledge and later crafted the knowledge seekers AND the library to grow ever more knowing and so on even as he came to disdain humanity's behavior.  Thus becoming more though obviously isn't as keyed into being "knowledge" hence his need to learn OR has misinformation, or being mislead or so on.
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« Reply #47 on: Apr 11, 2014 10:59 pm »

Most monsters aren't that though.  Medusa.  Tengu.  uhm the Boogiemen.  They are antagonistic maybe even have a history but their is no "point" to them.

Medusa is totally about something more. You don't see a sexist corruption of the "dangers" of feminine wiles in there?

Couldn't tell you about Tengu or the Boogieman, though.

According to Mother there was literally no division of things before her actions.  To have Light and Dark you need a division and Vaatu and Raava's relationship is defined by and part of it.  But note even if locked in the tree of eternity Vaatu can effect spirits in the material world near the equator.  Thus he is a "Great Spirit" That's the kind of scope and range he has even defeated.  Raava presumably has similar.  So is The Mother who is part of everything with an identity.  At that level though you're dealing with concepual power.  I wouldn't be surprised if she wouldn't throw laser beams (even if though Heibai can) but she can do that trick with overshadowing (Danny phantom reference) all the creatures in the valley at once.  Likely everything at once (though given her "merciful" nature she would hate to do that as it would spoil her artwork) at the least without a boundary or an awareness Vaatu and Raava's relationship couldn't be the same as when Wan found them and as Raava described it.

How are we defining "division," though? I'm not sure she meant it as literally as you're describing, here.

Moreover, it's notable that we only saw the Mother of Faces exerting power of those little face-projects she had worked on in the forest. She didn't exert any power over the humans present.
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« Reply #48 on: Apr 12, 2014 12:24 pm »

Something about Koh's mercy.  He likely gets more the more mystical his taking.  If he does it like a mere human he gets a rapidly rotting flap of flesh.  With uhm more than that he gets that and mystically preserved face.
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« Reply #49 on: Apr 12, 2014 01:47 pm »

Something about Koh's mercy.  He likely gets more the more mystical his taking.  If he does it like a mere human he gets a rapidly rotting flap of flesh.  With uhm more than that he gets that and mystically preserved face.

Also, it is worth mentioning that Koh's victims somehow manage to live on despite their missing faces. That should be something!
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