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Author Topic: The Rift Part 2 - Speculation [NO SPOILERS!]  (Read 17108 times)
Solid Sun
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« Reply #50 on: Jul 03, 2014 03:36 pm »

Zat would be quite the bittersweet ending.
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Avatar Epsilon
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« Reply #51 on: Jul 03, 2014 04:10 pm »

If its out, does anyone know where I can read it. I live in the UK you see, so I cant go to the comic shop to pick one up.

I really don't think it's out. I can't find any information about the comic anywhere. If it was out you'd think there'd be some user reviews or something.

I really think that date was a mess up.
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Loopy
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« Reply #52 on: Jul 03, 2014 05:18 pm »

Do characters who have never met Aang know that he's a pacifist? He's probably famous for wiping out an entire Fire Navy and leaving no survivors. Aside from the whole ripping-souls-out thing, of course.

I wouldn't be surprised if Aang's pacifism is well-known, for one very important reason: Ozai's still alive.

I mean, think about it.  There have got to be a bunch of people in the Earth Kingdom who want Ozai dead.  Zuko's willing to go with what Aang wants, of course, but I'm sure the Earth Kingdom wouldn't be happy about the king of all war criminals being given to his own nation to hold.  Whatever discussions were held over that would probably make the nature of Aang's decision not to kill Ozai (and his continuing decision not to allow Ozai to be handed over to anyone who would kill him) pretty clear.  Wink

This is a fair point, but I wonder how many random people would know Aang's reason for sparing Ozai. Plus, lots of people in our fandom consider the Debending to be worse than death, so I expect that he wouldn't exactly come across as a pushover.


Do characters who have never met Aang know that he's a pacifist? He's probably famous for wiping out an entire Fire Navy and leaving no survivors. Aside from the whole ripping-souls-out thing, of course.

I wouldn't be surprised if Aang's pacifism is well-known, for one very important reason: Ozai's still alive.

Well then there is the other important, rather obvious thing:

The Air Nomads were known as pacifists and Aang is an Air Nomad. Therefore, it should be common knowledge that Aang is a pacifist.

I'd be shocked if people didn't know that.

I would.

Ms. Kwan: Question one: What year did Fire Lord Sozin battle the Air Nation Army? (Aang raises his hand. She acknowledges him suspiciously.) Kuzon?
Aang: (rising) Is that a trick question? The Air Nomads didn't have a formal military. Sozin defeated them by ambush.

(The entire class stares open mouthed at this brazen heresy.)

Ms. Kwan: (flustered) Well, I don't know how you could possibly know more than our national history book. Unless you were there a hundred years ago.
Aang: (thinking better of it and sitting down) I'll just write down my best guess.

But maybe you were distracted by how silly Ms Kwan was being for giving away the answer to the quiz question. Wink
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Avatar Epsilon
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« Reply #53 on: Jul 03, 2014 05:30 pm »

I would.

Ms. Kwan: Question one: What year did Fire Lord Sozin battle the Air Nation Army? (Aang raises his hand. She acknowledges him suspiciously.) Kuzon?
Aang: (rising) Is that a trick question? The Air Nomads didn't have a formal military. Sozin defeated them by ambush.

(The entire class stares open mouthed at this brazen heresy.)

Ms. Kwan: (flustered) Well, I don't know how you could possibly know more than our national history book. Unless you were there a hundred years ago.
Aang: (thinking better of it and sitting down) I'll just write down my best guess.

But maybe you were distracted by how silly Ms Kwan was being for giving away the answer to the quiz question. Wink

That was in the Fire Nation, where they were intentionally flubbing history for propaganda. Still, when it comes to Fire Nation people, I guess you'd have a point.

We are talking about the Earth Kingdom here though. I can't remember anywhere in the series pointing to the Earth Kingdom not really knowing about Air Nomads.

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Loopy
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« Reply #54 on: Jul 03, 2014 05:49 pm »

It's been a hundred years since anyone saw an Air Nomad, except for the kid running around ending wars. What does anyone really know about these people?

As pointed out, we don't even know anything about them. We call them pacifists, but Gyatso killed at least a dozen Firebenders during the Comet. I don't think he politely asked them to die, and they complied. Yangchen urged Aang to kill Ozai. Even Aang's teachers were harsher and more strict than you'd expect of Nomads based on Gyatso and Aang's behavior.

All of the Air Nomads probably didn't live up to the lofty notions in which Aang believed. Who knows what perception was out there? Did the Earth Kingdom see them as nerds you could shove off the road for laughs, or as people who look weak but who you really don't want to try to rob?
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« Reply #55 on: Jul 03, 2014 06:05 pm »

It's been a hundred years since anyone saw an Air Nomad, except for the kid running around ending wars. What does anyone really know about these people?


I mean, they were a part of global society for thousands of years. It'd be odd if everyone just forgot what they were about.

The Greeks and Romans have been gone for a lot longer then 100 years yet we still know a lot about them. We know what their society was like. I don't know why people wouldn't still know about the Air Nomads.

And as for the airbenders killing FN soldiers, obviously that was in self defense. Yeah, I guess that means they aren't total pacifists but their society still promoted peace and non-violence if possible.  Aang even said in the finale that they taught the concept of all life being sacred.
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Loopy
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« Reply #56 on: Jul 03, 2014 06:07 pm »

Except the common man really doesn't know much about Ancient Rome. Sure, we could look them up if we wanted to do proper research, but most of us picture Gladiators, or Julius Caeser in Technicolor. What can you really tell me about the average citizen of Rome?

Likewise, what does the average Earth Kingdom or Fire Colonist know about those cults up in the mountains?
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Avatar Epsilon
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« Reply #57 on: Jul 03, 2014 06:21 pm »

Lao isn't really an average citizen though. He's a wealthy noblemen. I'd think he'd be a little more knowledgeable.

And I don't know much about Rome (I haven't really studied outside of basic history classes) but I could tell you the very basics of it.

One of the basics of the Air Nomads was that they were Monks. The characters always refer to them as monks. That part of their culture seems to be common knowledge. Monks are typically more on the peaceful side. Therefore, I'd think people would know that the Air Nomads were generally pacifists.

Once again, this society was around for thousands of years and was one of only four inhabiting the world. It'd take a lot more then 100 years for their basic values to be forgotten.
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Loopy
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« Reply #58 on: Jul 03, 2014 07:02 pm »

But what were their basic values? Aang tossed manned tanks off a mountain, and still considered himself a pacifist. Again, Gyatso killed a dozen people. Yangchen says that executions are a sign of a good Avatar.

I'm saying that risking your life on a technicality is not something that anyone in the Avatar world would do, even with an Air Nomad, even assuming that technicality is correct.

Even Lao, who might have read about long-dead Air Nomads in some books of dubious accuracy. The Encyclopedia Britannica was proven to be more inaccurate than Wikipedia in a random sampling of articles, and that's with modern research methods.

Remember the kind of world we're dealing with, here.
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Avatar Epsilon
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« Reply #59 on: Jul 03, 2014 11:04 pm »

But what were their basic values? Aang tossed manned tanks off a mountain, and still considered himself a pacifist. Again, Gyatso killed a dozen people. Yangchen says that executions are a sign of a good Avatar.

Well for one I think we need to stop using the word pacifist. To be fair I think I was the one that used it first but Air Nomads are definitely not pacifists. According to Aang though (and he is really all we have to go by) they prefer non-violent solutions to their problems. Only fighting when they absolutely have to. There is a reason Aang's fighting style is a lot of evading and very little heavy offense. It is also probably the reason why he doesn't use firebending a lot (Seriously, I don't think I've seen him use it at all in the comics).

Air Nomads just don't seem to be out to hurt people. The only time we have ever seen air nomads really kill someone is when their race was being wiped out.\

And once again, they are known globally as Monks. Monks are generally not murdering people for a living so I think it makes more sense that people would believe Air Nomads were pacifistic even if they technically weren't. I certainly can't see the world thinking that they were violent.

Quote
I'm saying that risking your life on a technicality is not something that anyone in the Avatar world would do, even with an Air Nomad, even assuming that technicality is correct.

Is Lao and everyone else's life really at risk though? I mean, assuming Aang wasn't an Air Nomad and he was willing to just go around killing people I doubt he would actually do it here seeing that this is his friends father. Despite her problems with her parents I don't think Toph would be okay with them being killed. And that is besides the fact that he needs to talk to the people about the factory and he can't do that if they are dead.

And as for the Rough Rhinos, they were hired to follow Lao's orders so of course they are going to attack Aang when Lao says to force him out. If they didn't they'd be out of the job.

I mean, I don't think anyone in this situation thinks their life is on the line at the moment. At worse they are going to get a few bruises. So them being aggressive towards the gaang doesn't really seem that odd to me. Mistakenly overconfident sure but definitely not a fault with the story.

If there are any story problems in those 8 pages I would say it's Lao's reaction to seeing Toph again. I'm not quite sure if I agree with how Gene wrote that personally...and that is coming from someone who is usually defending these comics.
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« Reply #60 on: Jul 04, 2014 12:39 am »

If there are any story problems in those 8 pages I would say it's Lao's reaction to seeing Toph again. I'm not quite sure if I agree with how Gene wrote that personally...and that is coming from someone who is usually defending these comics.

Agreed, in the previous issue, Lao seemed completely floored when he saw Toph again, like his partner pointed out, he looked as though he had seen a ghost.

 I would've expected him to become overwhelmed with emotion at his long-lost daughter's sudden appearance or to angrily chew her out for inning away, for Toph's father to leave without saying another word just felt really off.

This is the same man who worried about his daughter playing in the garden without parental supervision and hasn't seen her for over a year at least, surely Lao could've said or done something besides give Toph the cold shoulder upon sight.  
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« Reply #61 on: Jul 04, 2014 01:39 am »

I have a theory. Lao wanted a high society lady for a daughter, he got a pre-ladette war veteran. Because of this outcome, he has disowned Toph. His love was extremely conditional, now that she has taken a different path away from high society, she no longer exists to her father.
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #62 on: Jul 04, 2014 01:43 am »

I said it before but she became the most powerful earthbender and one of the persons who ended the war, he should be proud.
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« Reply #63 on: Jul 04, 2014 08:46 am »

If there are any story problems in those 8 pages I would say it's Lao's reaction to seeing Toph again. I'm not quite sure if I agree with how Gene wrote that personally...and that is coming from someone who is usually defending these comics.

Agreed, in the previous issue, Lao seemed completely floored when he saw Toph again, like his partner pointed out, he looked as though he had seen a ghost.

 I would've expected him to become overwhelmed with emotion at his long-lost daughter's sudden appearance or to angrily chew her out for inning away, for Toph's father to leave without saying another word just felt really off.

This is the same man who worried about his daughter playing in the garden without parental supervision and hasn't seen her for over a year at least, surely Lao could've said or done something besides give Toph the cold shoulder upon sight. 

I think that's the point. He's obviously lying when he first saw her.
I said it before but she became the most powerful earthbender and one of the persons who ended the war, he should be proud.

He should be proud of her, but that doesn't excuse the fact that Toph 'disobeyed' the family and now they have to cover it up by saying they have no daughter.

Before I explain, I going to say that I do not side with Lao. I am just trying to see things through his perspective as to why he's always been an idiot.

Lao is not your typical 'modern dad', he's a noblemen. Nobles took their image very seriously back then. The head of the family had to be in control of everything from his wife, children and whatever it means to be a high member in society. If someone were to disobey the family wishes, it's all on the leader and his family as a whole because they couldn't control them.

In Lao's case, he has probably gotten flak for simply being a bad parent because he couldn't control Toph. So what does he do? He writes her off and is presumably working in the refinery as an attempt to fix his name. Ironically it's making things worse for him and his daughter. He restricts Toph's freedom even more after she has proven to be capable taking care of herself, he hires the very same man who kidnapped her the first time, and now he has hired the Rough Rhinos as his personal guards. Lao is so concerned about his image that he has unknowingly resorted to sketchy things because he doesn't want to admit his own faults as parent. Like Toph, he too is stubborn. If the two of them just let go of their pride for two minutes they might have a moment of to reconcile.
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Ikkin
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« Reply #64 on: Jul 04, 2014 09:45 am »

But what were their basic values? Aang tossed manned tanks off a mountain, and still considered himself a pacifist. Again, Gyatso killed a dozen people. Yangchen says that executions are a sign of a good Avatar.

Their basic values are as follows: "All life is sacred, even the life of the tiniest spider-fly caught in its own web."

That doesn't necessarily rule out killing, even if Aang is convinced it does; both Yangchen and Gyatso likely realized that they had to balance the sacredness of their enemies' lives versus the sacredness of the lives of the people who would have been lost if those enemies were allowed to live and the consequences on the world as a whole.  That's probably what "selfless duty calls you to sacrifice your own spiritual needs and do whatever it takes to protect the World" means, after all.

If you think that Aang has canonically killed anyone, though, you're deluding yourself.  =P


Quote
I'm saying that risking your life on a technicality is not something that anyone in the Avatar world would do, even with an Air Nomad, even assuming that technicality is correct.

Even Lao, who might have read about long-dead Air Nomads in some books of dubious accuracy. The Encyclopedia Britannica was proven to be more inaccurate than Wikipedia in a random sampling of articles, and that's with modern research methods.

Remember the kind of world we're dealing with, here.

I don't think it's "risking your life on a technicality" to assume that the Air Nomad Avatar is going to avoid lethal violence by all means necessary.  Air Nomads might have killed sometimes, but even if the Fire Nation propaganda about the existence of an Air Nomad Army was accurate, there's still nothing suggesting that they saw lethal violence as anything other than an act of last resort.
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #65 on: Jul 04, 2014 10:35 am »

The Loopy vs Ikkin war lives on.
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« Reply #66 on: Jul 04, 2014 05:03 pm »

Eh, I don't want to get into another one of those over this stupid little issue. The complaint I agreed with is that everyone in the comics seem to treat Aang as someone they can push around, someone they don't respect as a danger. Debating at what point an Air Nomad would kill someone is completely ignoring the point that yes, they do kill people if properly provoked; yes, they will fight to defend themselves and Aang himself is one of the best fighters in the entire world at the time these comics take place; yes, Aang can steal your Bending forever if he thinks you're a threat to his vision of the world. So Aang should be treated as a real threat by anyone with half a brain and even minimal knowledge of current events.

If everyone else is so hell-bent on enjoying these comics despite their problems, go right ahead. I've made my point on this regard.


If there are any story problems in those 8 pages I would say it's Lao's reaction to seeing Toph again. I'm not quite sure if I agree with how Gene wrote that personally...and that is coming from someone who is usually defending these comics.

Agreed, in the previous issue, Lao seemed completely floored when he saw Toph again, like his partner pointed out, he looked as though he had seen a ghost.

 I would've expected him to become overwhelmed with emotion at his long-lost daughter's sudden appearance or to angrily chew her out for inning away, for Toph's father to leave without saying another word just felt really off.

This is the same man who worried about his daughter playing in the garden without parental supervision and hasn't seen her for over a year at least, surely Lao could've said or done something besides give Toph the cold shoulder upon sight. 

Lao's denying knowing Toph to protect her from something, a danger that would come from close association with him, and it will be a big "twist."
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #67 on: Jul 04, 2014 05:19 pm »

The Decepticon Spirit ?
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« Reply #68 on: Jul 04, 2014 05:30 pm »

Quite possibly. Wink
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #69 on: Jul 04, 2014 05:38 pm »

It would made him heroic but we could also have the Decepticon spirit attack Lao and have Toph save him :p
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« Reply #70 on: Jul 04, 2014 06:28 pm »

Heroic, but stupid, considering that Toph and the Avatar should be able to take down any random spirit.

I think a misguided over-protective streak works perfectly for him, and Toph saving him at the end might finally cure him. Deception Spirits are tougher than fake wrestlers, after all. Cheesy
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #71 on: Jul 04, 2014 06:31 pm »

If Yangchen is trying to warn Aang about his awakening, Megarock is no random spirit :p
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« Reply #72 on: Jul 04, 2014 06:35 pm »

Compared to Vaatu and Koh, even Megarock is a chump. They're the Unicrons of the Avatar world. Grin
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Solid Sun
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« Reply #73 on: Jul 04, 2014 06:51 pm »

Raava is Primus, Vaatu is Unicron, Koh is... huh... Starscream ?
When you know that Vaatu's fights with the AS end up badly for him, I can't imagine Megarock holding his ground very long if Aang activate it and he's shown using it on the cover of the third part, so the "fight' with him probably won't feature Toph since Aang will do fine by himself here.
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« Reply #74 on: Jul 04, 2014 08:51 pm »

Eh, I don't want to get into another one of those over this stupid little issue. The complaint I agreed with is that everyone in the comics seem to treat Aang as someone they can push around, someone they don't respect as a danger. Debating at what point an Air Nomad would kill someone is completely ignoring the point that yes, they do kill people if properly provoked; yes, they will fight to defend themselves and Aang himself is one of the best fighters in the entire world at the time these comics take place; yes, Aang can steal your Bending forever if he thinks you're a threat to his vision of the world. So Aang should be treated as a real threat by anyone with half a brain and even minimal knowledge of current events.

If everyone else is so hell-bent on enjoying these comics despite their problems, go right ahead. I've made my point on this regard.

Fair enough, but I do think there's a difference between respecting Aang's skill and seeing him as a danger.

Look at Katara and Pakku.  She knew he was more skilled than her, but she was also pretty sure she wasn't going to end up with permanent damage, either, so she felt comfortable fighting him to make her point.

People thinking they can actually beat Aang is silly.  People thinking they'd rather fight Aang than lose their job isn't.  I'd do that, and I have neither bending nor the kind of training the Rough Rhinos have.  =P
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