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Author Topic: A Water Tribe Kyoshi?  (Read 10209 times)
Omninaut
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« Reply #50 on: Oct 07, 2013 03:31 pm »

The whole cult of persona round Kyoshi is astounding. We've seen her do two things as Avatar and both times she badly mishandled them.

I think people just like the idea of big kickass lady and pushed her into this image of her.

Hell, her one kill was an ACCIDENT and we spun that into a bloodhound lady of war.

She moved an entire island rather than do her job; the exact opposite of what an avatar should do (7th Chakra)
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ViridianIV
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« Reply #51 on: Oct 07, 2013 06:14 pm »

The whole cult of persona round Kyoshi is astounding. We've seen her do two things as Avatar and both times she badly mishandled them.

I think people just like the idea of big kickass lady and pushed her into this image of her.

Hell, her one kill was an ACCIDENT and we spun that into a bloodhound lady of war.

She moved an entire island rather than do her job; the exact opposite of what an avatar should do (7th Chakra)

Except she did do her job Tongue Chin died and his cause apparently died with him since the world isn't ruled by his descendants.  You also can't call the Dai Li something she'd 'mishandled' really.  The fault of the Dai Li's corruption was in the man who decided to abuse the position.  They also were not corrupt as far as we know during her reign so in the scope of her lifetime, things ran smoothly.

As for the idea of her being a big Kickass lady I think her own words "Only Justice can bring Peace" (or something like that) are pretty much the words of somebody who is perfectly willing to go slugging it out with the people she considers unjust (be it with her fists/threats or diplomacy)  Point being, she seems to be an Avatar that actively sought to correct injustice.
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« Reply #52 on: Oct 07, 2013 06:20 pm »

The problem is that people conflate establishing justice with "killing the unjust." Justice, in Kyoshi's case, was finding a compromise between the rebelling peasants of Ba Sing Se and the corrupt King. We don't know any of the circumstances of her confrontation with Chin, but it's possible that waiting for him to conquer the Earth Kingdom was an act of justice in some way, just like justice was letting Chin bring about his own demise by not saving him.
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luvavatar
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« Reply #53 on: Oct 07, 2013 06:24 pm »

How could she have saved him? She was already several miles away and wouldn't have seen him fall into the ocean. She was the avatar, not superman.
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neverXbroken
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« Reply #54 on: Oct 07, 2013 06:24 pm »

The problem is that people conflate establishing justice with "killing the unjust." Justice, in Kyoshi's case, was finding a compromise between the rebelling peasants of Ba Sing Se and the corrupt King. We don't know any of the circumstances of her confrontation with Chin, but it's possible that waiting for him to conquer the Earth Kingdom was an act of justice in some way, just like justice was letting Chin bring about his own demise by not saving him.

OMG, you worded it perfectly. I was trying to find a way to counteract "Kyoshi praise" because everyone has this completely fanon idea of what Kyoshi is like when in all actuality, we really don't.
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Omninaut
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« Reply #55 on: Oct 07, 2013 10:00 pm »

The problem is that people conflate establishing justice with "killing the unjust." Justice, in Kyoshi's case, was finding a compromise between the rebelling peasants of Ba Sing Se and the corrupt King. We don't know any of the circumstances of her confrontation with Chin, but it's possible that waiting for him to conquer the Earth Kingdom was an act of justice in some way, just like justice was letting Chin bring about his own demise by not saving him.


How is giving the King an army of Super Rock Ninjas that could crush all dissent a "compromise."

>Oh the King is a douche!

>Ok, here King have some Rock Ninjas

>Problem solved.

>But Mistress Avatar, that doesn't really...

>PROBLEM SOLVED!


The whole cult of persona round Kyoshi is astounding. We've seen her do two things as Avatar and both times she badly mishandled them.

I think people just like the idea of big kickass lady and pushed her into this image of her.

Hell, her one kill was an ACCIDENT and we spun that into a bloodhound lady of war.

She moved an entire island rather than do her job; the exact opposite of what an avatar should do (7th Chakra)

Except she did do her job Tongue Chin died and his cause apparently died with him since the world isn't ruled by his descendants.  You also can't call the Dai Li something she'd 'mishandled' really.  The fault of the Dai Li's corruption was in the man who decided to abuse the position.  They also were not corrupt as far as we know during her reign so in the scope of her lifetime, things ran smoothly.

As for the idea of her being a big Kickass lady I think her own words "Only Justice can bring Peace" (or something like that) are pretty much the words of somebody who is perfectly willing to go slugging it out with the people she considers unjust (be it with her fists/threats or diplomacy)  Point being, she seems to be an Avatar that actively sought to correct injustice.


But she didnt go "slugging it out." She literally moved her entire Island off the Kingdom rather than deal with his s**t; the dude died by his own incompetence; not Kyoshi. Kyoshi said he WOULD kill him if she had too; menaing she went out of her way to avoid her job unless it was 100% necessary.
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Loopy
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« Reply #56 on: Oct 07, 2013 10:03 pm »

The problem is that people conflate establishing justice with "killing the unjust." Justice, in Kyoshi's case, was finding a compromise between the rebelling peasants of Ba Sing Se and the corrupt King. We don't know any of the circumstances of her confrontation with Chin, but it's possible that waiting for him to conquer the Earth Kingdom was an act of justice in some way, just like justice was letting Chin bring about his own demise by not saving him.


How is giving the King an army of Super Rock Ninjas that could crush all dissent a "compromise."

>Oh the King is a douche!

>Ok, here King have some Rock Ninjas

>Problem solved.

>But Mistress Avatar, that doesn't really...

>PROBLEM SOLVED!

In what way did she give them to the King? The only time we ever saw the Dai Li in action, they were subverting the authority of the King. Seems to me they were autonomous.
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Omninaut
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« Reply #57 on: Oct 07, 2013 10:23 pm »

They're governmental; that puts them under Monarchical auspices. Feng worked FOR the King remember?
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« Reply #58 on: Oct 08, 2013 12:49 am »

They're governmental; that puts them under Monarchical auspices. Feng worked FOR the King remember?

Long Feng worked for himself. He sold out the Earth King as soon as he had the opportunity to do so. And the Dai Li is their own organization and not governmental. They are like the CIA/NSA of the Earth Kingdom.
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Omninaut
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« Reply #59 on: Oct 08, 2013 01:53 am »

The CIA/NSA are appointed and run by Presidential Appointees and subject to Congress. Feng was Grand Secretariat  even if he was running things behind the scenes he was legally subject to the Earth King.
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« Reply #60 on: Oct 08, 2013 06:29 pm »

Actually, Long Feng simply introduces himself as "Grand Secretariat of Ba Sing Se and head of the Dai Li."

Beyond being a citizen of Ba Sing Se, there's nothing there that says his job in the Dai Li makes him a direct subordinate to the Earth King or his government.
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luvavatar
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« Reply #61 on: Oct 08, 2013 06:56 pm »

Other than that the Earth King is technically the supreme leader of the Earth Kingdom. The problem is that the Earth King's don't do much but sit in their palaces, whereas the leaders of the Water Tribes and Fire Nation are much more action.
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ViridianIV
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« Reply #62 on: Oct 08, 2013 08:07 pm »

She didn't 'Give the Earthking an army of rock ninjas' she gave the people an army of rock ninjas with which to protect their cultural heritage which the King was supposedly subverting at the time.  So I'd say it was essentially the opposite of what your saying.  I mean it isn't unfathomable for there to be a system of checks and balances.  Just because there is an Earthking doesn't even make it a monarchy in the sense of how a monarchy would have worked in England.  The Dai Li could very easily represent a completely separate branch of government.
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NumberWan
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« Reply #63 on: Oct 08, 2013 10:08 pm »

Kyoshi isn't what you all make her out to be. She seemed content to stay at home until conflicts directly affected her and her homeland. She wasn't this Avatar that ventured out time and time again providing judgement on those who could possibly threaten the balance. That was how Yangchen approached her time as the Avatar. Her violent unhinged methods however led to a generations worth of peace. Of all the Avatars we know of thus far, she seems to have been the best at her job for me. Aang comes in second, and Kyoshi a distant third, Roku comes fourth and so far I'd put Korra ahead of Kuruk.

I hope Wan was a bad ass. I'm not sure he looks it tho.
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ViridianIV
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« Reply #64 on: Oct 08, 2013 10:18 pm »

Kyoshi isn't what you all make her out to be. She seemed content to stay at home until conflicts directly affected her and her homeland. She wasn't this Avatar that ventured out time and time again providing judgement on those who could possibly threaten the balance. That was how Yangchen approached her time as the Avatar. Her violent unhinged methods however led to a generations worth of peace. Of all the Avatars we know of thus far, she seems to have been the best at her job for me. Aang comes in second, and Kyoshi a distant third, Roku comes fourth and so far I'd put Korra ahead of Kuruk.

I hope Wan was a bad ass. I'm not sure he looks it tho.

Are we sure about that though?  I mean isn't that as much Left Fanon as 'Bloody death Kyoshi" is Right Fanon.  We don't actually KNOW what all Kyoshi was up to at the time, or what she was doing excepting for that one incident and the time she went to Ba Sing Se to deal with the cultural issues.  For all we know she was stopping an Airbending civil war before she got the news of Chin's advance.
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Flipdark95
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« Reply #65 on: Oct 08, 2013 10:30 pm »

^ That seems very out of character to what we know the Air Nomads are like. I mean, sure, its my personal headcanon that the Air Nomads became complete pacifists mainly out of guilt from the terror and fear the rest of the world had for them when they were unrestrained with their airbending. But as it is, the Air Nomads are fairly monogamous in their beliefs.
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NumberWan
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« Reply #66 on: Oct 08, 2013 10:59 pm »

May have been speculating with the "violent and unhinged" part, but Yangchen was feared for her willingness to do whatever was required to maintain the balance. She likely held her duties as the Avatar in higher regard than she did the ideals of an Air Nomad, unlike Aang.
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ViridianIV
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« Reply #67 on: Oct 08, 2013 11:07 pm »

^ That seems very out of character to what we know the Air Nomads are like.

xD of course Tongue my example was purposefully ridiculous xD but the point is still valid.  It's no more likely with the evidence we have on hand that Kyoshi was lazy and slow to act than it is for her to be hardball fist to the face action hero.  It's almost entirely speculation.  All we really know about her was that she was probably a 'Just' Avatar since her advice to Aang was all about Justice.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #68 on: Oct 09, 2013 08:00 am »

^ That seems very out of character to what we know the Air Nomads are like.

I dunno, but the creators definitely shaking this one up lately with the shamelessly effective "Korra Style Airbending".
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« Reply #69 on: Oct 09, 2013 08:24 am »

^ I don't see how Korra's personal style of using airbending as a hammer while Aang used his creatively results in the Air Nomads themselves being different than the peace-loving monks we've seen, but okay.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #70 on: Oct 09, 2013 08:41 am »

^ I don't see how Korra's personal style of using airbending as a hammer while Aang used his creatively results in the Air Nomads themselves being different than the peace-loving monks we've seen, but okay.

Point is, that they both work. One would think that using airbending with Korra's understanding of things would result in a weak airbending. What we have seen so far is quite the opposite (I would say, airbending looks like Korra's superweapon of choice) so we can assume that just because you use airbending, you can be still a person who wants to wreck stuff brainlessly.
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ViridianIV
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« Reply #71 on: Oct 09, 2013 01:54 pm »

^ I don't see how Korra's personal style of using airbending as a hammer while Aang used his creatively results in the Air Nomads themselves being different than the peace-loving monks we've seen, but okay.

Point is, that they both work. One would think that using airbending with Korra's understanding of things would result in a weak airbending. What we have seen so far is quite the opposite (I would say, airbending looks like Korra's superweapon of choice) so we can assume that just because you use airbending, you can be still a person who wants to wreck stuff brainlessly.

What???  She does not!  Korra's never used Airbending like some kind of superweapon? She uses Water for that as far as Season 2 has shown.  The difference is she wasn't born an airbender and never learned the airbender ways.  It makes perfect sense that Avatars of the other nations would all use airbending in a more aggressive manner than Airbenders would because they aren't pacifist monks.  Besides how do you say which aspect of Airbending is more powerful?  Korra can't dodge like Aang could and she's paid for it more than once.  Aang was darn near untouchable on the battlefield.
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« Reply #72 on: Oct 09, 2013 02:10 pm »

^ I don't see how Korra's personal style of using airbending as a hammer while Aang used his creatively results in the Air Nomads themselves being different than the peace-loving monks we've seen, but okay.

Point is, that they both work. One would think that using airbending with Korra's understanding of things would result in a weak airbending. What we have seen so far is quite the opposite (I would say, airbending looks like Korra's superweapon of choice) so we can assume that just because you use airbending, you can be still a person who wants to wreck stuff brainlessly.

What???  She does not!  Korra's never used Airbending like some kind of superweapon? She uses Water for that as far as Season 2 has shown.  The difference is she wasn't born an airbender and never learned the airbender ways.  It makes perfect sense that Avatars of the other nations would all use airbending in a more aggressive manner than Airbenders would because they aren't pacifist monks.  Besides how do you say which aspect of Airbending is more powerful?  Korra can't dodge like Aang could and she's paid for it more than once.  Aang was darn near untouchable on the battlefield.

Exactly.

Korra's airbending is nowhere near as potent as Aang's was. The most Korra has done with airbending is the air scooter, slow falls, spin herself back onto her feet, and simple windblasts. The windblasts work because they're invisible attacks and most people don't know/can't defend themselves against it.

That's not saying that that's bad airbending. It's just saying she's a ways away from mastery.
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« Reply #73 on: Oct 09, 2013 02:15 pm »

Aang's style was more peaceful because he focused on the spiral side of being the avatar while Korra's style is more aggressive because she focuses on the physical side of being the avatar.
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« Reply #74 on: Oct 09, 2013 02:29 pm »

What???  She does not!  Korra's never used Airbending like some kind of superweapon?

Hehe.. Actually, Korra rarely uses airbending, but when she does, she kicks butt with it. Just ask Unalaq (or Amon)  Wink.

And you cannot compare her to Aang. Korra is an aggressive airbender - a living proof that a violent person could be a good airbender, she just need to use Korra Style Airbending (eg: air punches with air punches because evasion is for the weak). On the other hand, Aang was a peaceful airbender who used the traditional airbending style (lots of evasion). My point is that there could be airbenders using Korra Style during Kyoshi's time, making trouble and messing with the peaceful monks. Airbending isn't just evasion and other passive-defensive stuff (just as you mentioned with the hard-to-dodge wind blasts) and you can get the wrong idea even with the right training (Tenzin is not a big fan of Korra Style, even though he trained her for almost a whole year).
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