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Author Topic: A Water Tribe Kyoshi?  (Read 10214 times)
Clowngoon
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 03, 2013 08:52 pm »

At least Roku admitted some of his faults though. Not trying to bash Aang or anything, but I kinda hoped he would call himself out on being the indirect cause of Amon nearly taking over Republic City.
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 03, 2013 09:05 pm »

I thought Aang would learn from the past avatars telling him to kill Ozai that he would realize that some people don't deserve a chance. He let Yakone live, sure he did take his bending away but Yakone still taught his sons bloodbending and hoped that his sons to avenge him.
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« Reply #27 on: Oct 03, 2013 09:29 pm »

I'm not sure if Roku should've killed Sozin, but he should've at least removed him from power. His attempt at conquest should've been a wake-up call to the rest of the world, that way when he did attempt it again there would've been a much stronger push back.

It was a different world by then, they had the courts decide people's fates by then. He didn't kill Yakone, but it also falls on the courts of Republic City and their faulty prison system that allowed him to escape his sentence of life imprisonment.
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« Reply #28 on: Oct 03, 2013 11:13 pm »

It was a different world by then, they had the courts decide people's fates by then. He didn't kill Yakone, but it also falls on the courts of Republic City and their faulty prison system that allowed him to escape his sentence of life imprisonment.
True, but Yakone's original sentence was to give him life in prison. Yea because a bloodbender who could control people with his mind would willingly go to prison for the rest of his days. Then again, the death sentence seems non-existent due to the city being partially being founded by a pacifistic monk.
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BrossUno
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« Reply #29 on: Oct 04, 2013 04:22 pm »

Ah, the twisted and confused path that is Avatar Kyoshi's characterization. A lady who took her job seriously turned into a blood thirsty murderer or the laziest and most indifferent Avatar ever. With topics like these cropping up, I think it's safe to say that her character is totally unsalvageable. Considering there are popular fanfics where Kyoshi is the sole reason for everything wrong in the Avatar world, it seems the last thing anyone wants her to be is heroic. The conclusions people draw from two short little flashbacks are interesting, almost none of them positive.

Not many people want to give her the benefit of the doubt. Like maybe she was busy somewhere else in the Fire Nation or Water Tribes when Chin was launching his campaign. Like he used her absence from the Earth Kingdom to make his move. Or the idea that maybe she was deeply insulted that the Earth King called on her to put down a bunch of desperate people he was too incompetent to take care of or manage properly as their ruler, and then tried to arrest her when she said "no".

Not that I blame people for heading in that direction. I can see how those who are tired of hearing about her island trick or "badass" nature would look for a way to cut her down to size. And considering how people are split on Legend of Korra and the comic series and how they're interpreting various characters from Avatar: The Last Airbender, I can see where pessimism about Avatar Kyoshi would be easy to latch onto.

I think she's a cool minor character with a neat character design. I'm sure she had her shortcomings. And I am super curious what her appearance in Korra season 2 will end up doing. Maybe she's only on screen for five seconds or maybe she has some speaking lines. The thing is that I don't think we'll ever get anything concrete to figure out if she was a good or bad Avatar for sure. So maybe that's a nice thing that people have the room to take her in so many different directions. I guess I'd be one of the optimistic ones on that count. Although I guess I wouldn't be too surprised if they revealed some ugly fact like Kyoshi was prejudice against people from the Water Tribes or loved torture.
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« Reply #30 on: Oct 04, 2013 04:57 pm »

In the book 2 trailer we're seeing Korra talk to Kyoshi. Kyoshi's had relatively limited screentime in the series so far though (which makes her quite interesting. We know Aang in and out and we know Roku pretty well. Kyoshi is the one right before the recent ones we're very familiar with, but in many ways she's somewhat mysterious to us. Also, her design is pretty kick-ass.). Apart from the chin episode and the dai-li creation flashback in the spirit world we have very little to go on for her character. The book 2 scene might help us fill in the blanks a bit more.
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HappyPandaGamer
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« Reply #31 on: Oct 04, 2013 08:01 pm »




Anybody posted what they think about this? I have a feeling its going to be about how Korra connects to the spirit world and ask the past avatars to stop let's say, the civil war between the water tribes. So we'll have more screen time for the other avatars and maybe some Kyoshi character development? I hope so!
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« Reply #32 on: Oct 05, 2013 01:09 am »

Anybody posted what they think about this?

I did, in the post right above yours Cheesy
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Vensai
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« Reply #33 on: Oct 05, 2013 02:30 am »

Kyoshi was more reserved than Korra and actually thought things through before acting. She was willing to compromise with the Earth King and wasn't the first one to strike. Korra on the other hand is a loose cannon. Hopefully she earns some more character development this season about how brute force doesn't always get you want you want.
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Loopy
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« Reply #34 on: Oct 05, 2013 02:06 pm »

Ah, the twisted and confused path that is Avatar Kyoshi's characterization. A lady who took her job seriously turned into a blood thirsty murderer or the laziest and most indifferent Avatar ever. With topics like these cropping up, I think it's safe to say that her character is totally unsalvageable. Considering there are popular fanfics where Kyoshi is the sole reason for everything wrong in the Avatar world, it seems the last thing anyone wants her to be is heroic.

I know Embers has a hundred gajillion positive reviews, but I have yet to actually meet anyone who likes it. Cheesy
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Lavanya Six
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« Reply #35 on: Oct 05, 2013 02:21 pm »

Ah, the twisted and confused path that is Avatar Kyoshi's characterization. A lady who took her job seriously turned into a blood thirsty murderer or the laziest and most indifferent Avatar ever. With topics like these cropping up, I think it's safe to say that her character is totally unsalvageable. Considering there are popular fanfics where Kyoshi is the sole reason for everything wrong in the Avatar world, it seems the last thing anyone wants her to be is heroic.

I know Embers has a hundred gajillion positive reviews, but I have yet to actually meet anyone who likes it. Cheesy

I have. The fights over it got so bad on another forum that they actually split off the thread just so people would kick up dust in a confined area.
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Loopy
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« Reply #36 on: Oct 05, 2013 02:26 pm »

Yeah, I saw the original Edit War on TVTropes, but I've never actually participated in anything like that. Seems my circles are small enough to avoid the heat.

I'm actually more turned off by the way it villainizes Koh again, because the Kyoshi Issue is a wider problem in the fandom and I don't think Embers actually contributed to it, much.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #37 on: Oct 05, 2013 02:37 pm »

Ah, the twisted and confused path that is Avatar Kyoshi's characterization. A lady who took her job seriously turned into a blood thirsty murderer or the laziest and most indifferent Avatar ever. With topics like these cropping up, I think it's safe to say that her character is totally unsalvageable. Considering there are popular fanfics where Kyoshi is the sole reason for everything wrong in the Avatar world, it seems the last thing anyone wants her to be is heroic.

I know Embers has a hundred gajillion positive reviews, but I have yet to actually meet anyone who likes it. Cheesy

Oh gosh... Is this that Embers with the firebender healers? If yes, then I kinda' liked it too  Smiley!
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HappyPandaGamer
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« Reply #38 on: Oct 05, 2013 02:40 pm »

Ah, the twisted and confused path that is Avatar Kyoshi's characterization. A lady who took her job seriously turned into a blood thirsty murderer or the laziest and most indifferent Avatar ever. With topics like these cropping up, I think it's safe to say that her character is totally unsalvageable. Considering there are popular fanfics where Kyoshi is the sole reason for everything wrong in the Avatar world, it seems the last thing anyone wants her to be is heroic.

I know Embers has a hundred gajillion positive reviews, but I have yet to actually meet anyone who likes it. Cheesy

Oh gosh... Is this that Embers with the firebender healers? If yes, then I kinda' liked it too  Smiley!

I used to like it too. Is it still around or did get completed?
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« Reply #39 on: Oct 05, 2013 02:43 pm »

No, it's still updating regularly, and currently at 87 chapters. If you guys had to ask, then I guess you haven't been following it. Cheesy I liked it, too, up to a certain point, but when I left, it had bordered the Crazy Train to Crazy Town.
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HappyPandaGamer
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« Reply #40 on: Oct 05, 2013 03:01 pm »

Well since that Korra got "eaten" by the spirit monster, she'll be in the spirit world and see the past avatars. Kyoshi will probably more screen time and learn some more about the past avatars and more on their backstories.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #41 on: Oct 05, 2013 03:17 pm »

Well since that Korra got "eaten" by the spirit monster, she'll be in the spirit world and see the past avatars. Kyoshi will probably more screen time and learn some more about the past avatars and more on their backstories.

It will be possibly just a short appearance, like in The Old Masters.
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BrossUno
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« Reply #42 on: Oct 05, 2013 09:45 pm »

Well since that Korra got "eaten" by the spirit monster, she'll be in the spirit world and see the past avatars. Kyoshi will probably more screen time and learn some more about the past avatars and more on their backstories.

It will be possibly just a short appearance, like in The Old Masters.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I get the feeling she'll only be around for like five seconds before moving onto Wan or maybe other quick appearances of more Avatars. Maybe because I can't think of anything meaningful that Kyoshi could contribute that can't be covered by the very first Avatar. Maybe a few words of encouragement, but I suppose I'm keeping my expectations low for time reasons.
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Ikkin
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« Reply #43 on: Oct 05, 2013 10:53 pm »

Well since that Korra got "eaten" by the spirit monster, she'll be in the spirit world and see the past avatars. Kyoshi will probably more screen time and learn some more about the past avatars and more on their backstories.

It will be possibly just a short appearance, like in The Old Masters.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I get the feeling she'll only be around for like five seconds before moving onto Wan or maybe other quick appearances of more Avatars. Maybe because I can't think of anything meaningful that Kyoshi could contribute that can't be covered by the very first Avatar. Maybe a few words of encouragement, but I suppose I'm keeping my expectations low for time reasons.

I've gotta admit, I'd find it hilarious if Kyoshi got a couple of minutes of screentime just to thoroughly Joss her fanon characterization by having her advise Korra to be less violent.  >.>
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« Reply #44 on: Oct 05, 2013 11:05 pm »

Kyohsi gets this rep as hardcore Dreddian Avatar; but if you look at the facts she's actualy really bad at it.

She let Chin take over the Earth Kingdom; and didnt lift a finger to stop him until he came to her little village.

Then, rather than DEAL with the problem she moved entire landmasses just to avoid the whole thing; she killed Chin by ACCIDENT!

Then when the Peasants revolted because that war she let happen ruined the entire nations structure she just threw rock ninjas at them.
i
Kyoshi was a horrid Avatar. (In fact, I dont think any non airbender avatar had actually been competent)

Can you imagine what Kuruk was saying?

>Hey Kyoshi, you maybe wanna handle that crazy manlet taking over the Earth Kingdom?
>Eh, I think I'll just chill here for a while.
>Uh, he's kinda wiping out everyone
>I said later dude.

Later dude

>Kyoshi, Chin took over the whole Kingdom !
>Meh
>And he's here right now!
>f**k this s**t
>Oh yeah, you ready to end this threat!
>Nah, I'm just going to move the whole village away so I don't have to deal with this s**t.
>You did it, you killed Chin!
>Who?
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BrossUno
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« Reply #45 on: Oct 06, 2013 04:59 am »

Kyohsi gets this rep as hardcore Dreddian Avatar; but if you look at the facts she's actualy really bad at it.

She let Chin take over the Earth Kingdom; and didnt lift a finger to stop him until he came to her little village.

Then, rather than DEAL with the problem she moved entire landmasses just to avoid the whole thing; she killed Chin by ACCIDENT!

Then when the Peasants revolted because that war she let happen ruined the entire nations structure she just threw rock ninjas at them.
i
Kyoshi was a horrid Avatar. (In fact, I dont think any non airbender avatar had actually been competent)


I take it you're a glass half empty kind of person concerning Avatar Kyoshi. Cheesy

Yeah, the Chin scenario kinda hinges on the map scene, doesn't it? Personally I feel like there isn't enough information to make a call on that, but this is coming from a guy who finds Kyoshi interesting. There's no timeline or sequence of events, so a lot could have happened during Chin the Conqueror's campaign. Maybe Kyoshi was traveling outside the Earth Kingdom. Or maybe she was training or took awhile to master the Avatar State. Or maybe she tried to confront Chin's army head on and he beat the crap out of her a few times so she had to rethink her strategy. We are basing this off a short flashback where Kyoshi is giving a summary and not a full story of her confrontation with Chin.

Then I've seen a few people bring up the political aspects that Chin wasn't technically trying to take over the world, so maybe it wasn't the Avatar's business to intervene on an internal Earth Kingdom matter because it didn't concern the balance of the world. Kyoshi's village is so far south she wouldn't have had strong feelings on Chin or the Earth King. I don't know if I like that idea, though.

Considering the kind of show Avatar is, where things often work out in the end, I don't buy the idea she stood around doing nothing while Chin marched his armies across the land. As for her leaving Chin alive... maybe it was her attempt at mercy or giving him a second chance to reconsider his actions before he fell off the cliff. But that's just me. I just feel like there has to be a middle ground between "Kyoshi was the best Avatar ever!" and "Kyoshi was the worst Avatar ever!" given the information we have.

But like I said before, I see the reasoning if people are down on her character. And to get back to the original post, I just don't think a violence loving murderer is one of them. That was a 15 minute joke people used to ignore far more interesting arguments like the one you have here.
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« Reply #46 on: Oct 06, 2013 06:27 am »

What do we know about Chin's campaign? When it comes to that history we are just peeking through the keyhole, seeing one picture from the very end. On a similar vein we can look at Stalin, Mao, guillotines and so on. We can say that it is a disaster, but not without the cause.

We know nothing about this particular revolt's roots- Chin had to appeal to legitimate problem to grain a support.  Corrupt government, bureaucracy and weak king? Poverty? Divided social classes? Something that had grown by centuries that people took it for granted, but a spark turned it into civil war?

I wonder why nobody assume that was social and political war, so Kyoshi may not feel like she should interferer or maybe even feel sympathy.
But before Chin had reached her island circumstances may had changed- the most logical one would be Chin going into full knight templar mode and turning own ideas into parody.

For me it's the most plausible scenario explaining Kyoshi's lack of actions, so I wonder why nobody considered making an analogy to real life revolts.
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Lavanya Six
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« Reply #47 on: Oct 06, 2013 07:23 am »

What do we know about Chin's campaign? When it comes to that history we are just peeking through the keyhole, seeing one picture from the very end. On a similar vein we can look at Stalin, Mao, guillotines and so on. We can say that it is a disaster, but not without the cause.

We can guess. Chin is an expy of the real-life Emperor Qin -- thus their names. And we know from the tie-in game that the Earth King of the period was not the best person for the job.
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« Reply #48 on: Oct 07, 2013 12:09 pm »

Kyohsi gets this rep as hardcore Dreddian Avatar; but if you look at the facts she's actualy really bad at it.

She let Chin take over the Earth Kingdom; and didnt lift a finger to stop him until he came to her little village.

Then, rather than DEAL with the problem she moved entire landmasses just to avoid the whole thing; she killed Chin by ACCIDENT!

Then when the Peasants revolted because that war she let happen ruined the entire nations structure she just threw rock ninjas at them.
i
Kyoshi was a horrid Avatar. (In fact, I dont think any non airbender avatar had actually been competent)


I take it you're a glass half empty kind of person concerning Avatar Kyoshi. Cheesy

Yeah, the Chin scenario kinda hinges on the map scene, doesn't it? Personally I feel like there isn't enough information to make a call on that, but this is coming from a guy who finds Kyoshi interesting. There's no timeline or sequence of events, so a lot could have happened during Chin the Conqueror's campaign. Maybe Kyoshi was traveling outside the Earth Kingdom. Or maybe she was training or took awhile to master the Avatar State. Or maybe she tried to confront Chin's army head on and he beat the crap out of her a few times so she had to rethink her strategy. We are basing this off a short flashback where Kyoshi is giving a summary and not a full story of her confrontation with Chin.

Then I've seen a few people bring up the political aspects that Chin wasn't technically trying to take over the world, so maybe it wasn't the Avatar's business to intervene on an internal Earth Kingdom matter because it didn't concern the balance of the world. Kyoshi's village is so far south she wouldn't have had strong feelings on Chin or the Earth King. I don't know if I like that idea, though.

Considering the kind of show Avatar is, where things often work out in the end, I don't buy the idea she stood around doing nothing while Chin marched his armies across the land. As for her leaving Chin alive... maybe it was her attempt at mercy or giving him a second chance to reconsider his actions before he fell off the cliff. But that's just me. I just feel like there has to be a middle ground between "Kyoshi was the best Avatar ever!" and "Kyoshi was the worst Avatar ever!" given the information we have.

But like I said before, I see the reasoning if people are down on her character. And to get back to the original post, I just don't think a violence loving murderer is one of them. That was a 15 minute joke people used to ignore far more interesting arguments like the one you have here.
If you have yo assume logical leaps in order to preserve her character, I doubt there was much there to begin with, needing to use "what ifs" and "maybes" to make her loom good when we have SEEN the events in question just make it seem like you're grapsing for straws. You nay as well assume that the Airbenders DID have a secret army they didn't tell 12 year olds about if your going to be stretching canon that far.
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« Reply #49 on: Oct 07, 2013 03:17 pm »

I can imagine that Kyoshi was probably a lot like Lin, strict and by the book. It probably took a lot to shake her. As for Kyoshi and the Water Tribe, she probably had some kind of connection with the Southern Water Tribe. The clothes of the residence of Kyoshi looked like Water Tribe clothes more, and there must have been a reason why Kyoshi sent the island south and toward the cold.

Except that there is a violent irrational side of Lin we just haven't seen.  From what we currently know, two things occurred when Tenzin broke up with her.  She trashed Air Bender Island, and tried to have Pema arrested.  (Humorously, Tenzin considers this just the basics of 'drifting apart') outside the 'Fanon' what we know of Kyoshi is that she is willing to kill if she feels it necessary and is willing to threaten a government to make it fall in line if the people asked her to.
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