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Author Topic: The Search, Part 3 - Spoilers  (Read 77528 times)
Loopy
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« Reply #500 on: Oct 27, 2013 04:23 pm »

Ahhh Novembeeer? For some unknown reason I thought it was definitely coming out this month. Ehh

Ah, I just found a solicitation for the comic shops. They're supposed to get it October 30, providing Diamond meets that.
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plushu
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« Reply #501 on: Oct 27, 2013 05:13 pm »

Ahhh Novembeeer? For some unknown reason I thought it was definitely coming out this month. Ehh

It should be coming out in comic book stores on the 30 or 31st. They get the books before online retailers do.
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« Reply #502 on: Oct 27, 2013 05:17 pm »

So basically, there will be ~snip~ by the time the next episode of Korra airs on Friday.


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« Last Edit: Oct 30, 2013 08:52 am by Icy_Ashford » Logged

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« Reply #503 on: Oct 27, 2013 07:27 pm »

Part 3 comes out in comic book stores on the 30th of this month. If you order from Amazon (like me) you will get it a few days after that. It is released everywhere else on Nov. 12.

I also know that the itunes store has the comics but I'm not sure when they get released there.

Just wanted to clear that up.
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« Reply #504 on: Oct 28, 2013 08:02 pm »

 2 days left. Sigh.... I feel more impatient then ever. Sad
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KpKimberly
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Azula ist die wertvollste.


« Reply #505 on: Oct 29, 2013 01:50 am »

But Iroh really doesn't want her in his family. If, then why he should ignore his 14-year old niece?? Call her crazy and needs to go down (maybe even wanting her to be killed) making Zuzu hate her more and sending him to fight his sister??

Maybe because his cute, lovable and cuddly 14 year old niece is trying to kill him everytime she gets the chance?

Here we go again, Azula is the sheep, everyone else is the wolf.
Sry, I don't know if you're aware of it or not, but you and others started this. I just said Iroh hates Azula. I didn't say why and I didn't say if he is right or wrong. You guys started defending Iroh, mentioned reasons why he dislikes her and that he is right. This means you actually agree with me-Iroh hates her and doesn't want her in the family, no matter why.
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« Reply #506 on: Oct 29, 2013 01:58 am »

For the last time Iroh doesn't hate Azula. In the Search part 1 it actually seems like he wants her to get better.
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« Reply #507 on: Oct 29, 2013 02:35 am »

But Iroh really doesn't want her in his family. If, then why he should ignore his 14-year old niece?? Call her crazy and needs to go down (maybe even wanting her to be killed) making Zuzu hate her more and sending him to fight his sister??

Maybe because his cute, lovable and cuddly 14 year old niece is trying to kill him everytime she gets the chance?

Here we go again, Azula is the sheep, everyone else is the wolf.
Sry, I don't know if you're aware of it or not, but you and others started this. I just said Iroh hates Azula. I didn't say why and I didn't say if he is right or wrong. You guys started defending Iroh, mentioned reasons why he dislikes her and that he is right. This means you actually agree with me-Iroh hates her and doesn't want her in the family, no matter why.

That doesn't actually follow.  The way you listed your questions implied that you considered them evidence for why Iroh hates her/doesn't consider Azula family.  People were giving reasons why he might respond that way to her that DIDN'T involve him hating her.

We don't know that he did ignore Azula - most of their known interactions involve her attacking him in some manner.  There is the matter of the Earth Kingdom doll vs the general's knife, but there are several arguments that that wasn't a deliberate snub.  For one thing, we don't know that Iroh knew much of anything about Azula at that age.  He was often away at the front, and Azula was even younger than Zuko.  If most of his information about Azula's personality came from rosy letters from Ursa, he might have honestly come away with the impression that she would prefer a doll over anything else he had available to give her.  I've also seen it argued that he was at least somewhat aware of Azula's personality and he sent her a doll specifically because he was worried about her and wanted to help her develop empathy - not a great choice, but not malicious either.

Iroh says she needs to be stopped because she's a danger to others, and she isn't neurotypical: at minimum, she's a sadist, and as of the end of the series she's displayed clear signs of paranoid schizophrenia, so technically he's not wrong to call her 'crazy,' either.

Also, when did he make Zuko hate her more?  Essentially, he told Zuko that he was crazy to keep making peace overtures to someone who had attacked him multiple times (every fight between the two seen onscreen was instigated by Azula) and who showed absolutely no signs of desiring peace herself.  Which it is.  Further, some of the attacks Azula aimed at Zuko were potentially lethal - most notably the lightning Iroh had to redirect.

Finally, Iroh didn't send Zuko to the Fire Nation for the purpose of fighting Azula.  He sent Zuko there to prevent the country from falling into civil war after Ozai was defeated.  The fact that he was almost certain to be confronted by Azula was incidental.  Even if they knew with complete certainty that Azula would be with Ozai and the main air fleet, Zuko would still have been sent to the Fire Nation.

None of this implies that Iroh hates Azula.  These are reasons for him to do all of these things despite loving her very much - or even because he loves her but doesn't see any way other way he can help when Azula rejects him in every interaction we've ever seen them have (even by proxy).  Zuko lashes out at him, but he also listens to him and respects him.  That's why he can be emotionally closer to Zuko.  Relationships are a two-way street.
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« Reply #508 on: Oct 29, 2013 05:43 am »

UGH, normally, I do my best to avoid logging in, just watch from afar.............but even this reply makes me log in and give my two cents worth.

How do I actually start my input without sounding bias?  Look, Iroh favored Zuko, he made him into Lu Ten 2.0.  I believe he took out his anger at Ozai and focused it on Azula..............again, no proof of that, just my own opinion.  He would never take on Ozai, saying it would be just two siblings fighting over the throne and yet he encouraged Zuko to do so...............and yet make sure he took Katara along for the ride.  

Look, Azula really messed up, she did horrible things, but she was a good soldier for her country.  Zuko would have done the same thing if he was in Azula's shoes.  I'm not excusing her for her past mistakes, she did shoot the avatar with lightening, Katara thankfully brought him back.  She shot Zuko and Katara brought him back.  The winners write the history books.  Azula fought for her country just as Katara fought for her country.  There has to be one winner and there has to be one loser.  Zuko chose the right path and stuck with the stronger winner.  He has a bad habit of betraying those just to further his career.  He betrayed his father in that meeting.............then he sided with his uncle, when it got tough, he left Iroh, then he got better and went back to him.  Then he met Azula, Azula gave him what he wanted, so he took it, guilt took over and he turned his back on his father and sister.  Zuko will always be unreliable, always going with the side that seems to be winning.  When he met up with Iroh, Iroh was in the White Lotus camp, surrounded with good guys and then Zuko was sorry.  

Either way, no matter if you love Zuko or love Azula, the firebending siblings will always be their own breed.  Zuko had the love of his mother, uncle, friends, mai and others......Azula only had her father and even at the end, he tossed her aside as she said "you can't treat me like Zuko!"  Luckily, Zuko became firelord but it is tragic that Azula ended up becoming hurt.  

Don't get me wrong, Azula was a witch (I'm using the nice word), she did a lot of horrible things, but I think she did what she did because of her father.  I can't speculate her intentions on the day of "Crossroads"  but in a way I do often wonder if she actually loved her brother to some slim extent..........I mean, she could have easily have had the Dai Li help her out but chose Zuko to save her.  Just wondering. 
« Last Edit: Oct 29, 2013 06:39 am by queen_lynxana » Logged

EverythingToMe
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« Reply #509 on: Oct 29, 2013 10:31 am »

I think there may be more evidence that Azula hated Iroh rather than the other way around, quite honestly.  Grin

Seriously though, Azula was a bad person who did/would do bad things (Well, duh!). Why do you think Zuko had the love of all of these people? Even when Zuko was considered a villain, he still showed moments of empathy, and was way more approachable. Azula was an unpredictable nutcase who was extremely difficult to get through to, so much so that it seemed almost impossible. She always had to have her way. I don't think you can blame people for being weary, and scared of her to the point where they didn't trust her enough to open up towards her and show her the type of emotions such as love. Like someone in this thread said, a healthy relationship is a two way street, and she wasn't doing her part, so why expect the other person to?

With all of that said, I guess Ursa could've tried more harder with her. It is her daughter. Ozai was just a horrible influence all together. He would basically have to change who he is for him to be of any good to Azula.
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« Reply #510 on: Oct 29, 2013 04:02 pm »

^What the above poster said. I also want to add that while Azula was a soldier of her country, she still took sadistic enjoyment in her actions which is something many soldiers don't do. Her actions went farther then her just being a soldier and doing her duty.
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« Reply #511 on: Oct 29, 2013 05:02 pm »

Epsilon, you're a bro. Everything I would say comes out from your mouth xD You beat me to it, again!
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« Reply #512 on: Oct 29, 2013 05:06 pm »

What can I say? Great minds think alike! Grin
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« Reply #513 on: Oct 29, 2013 05:11 pm »

^What the above poster said. I also want to add that while Azula was a soldier of her country, she still took sadistic enjoyment in her actions which is something many soldiers don't do. Her actions went farther then her just being a soldier and doing her duty.

Also, "good" soldiers don't kill their comrades just for doing their jobs properly:

Quote from: The Avatar State
Captain: (respectfully) Princess, I'm afraid the tides will not allow us to bring the ship in to port before nightfall.

(Cut to in front of Azula with the captain behind her. She turns and walks to the left as she speaks.)

Azula: I'm sorry, Captain, but I do not know much about the tides. Can you explain something to me?

(Cut to a profile of the captain.)

Captain: Of course, Your Highness.

(Cut to in front of Azula.)

Azula: Do the tides command this ship?
Captain: Uh... I'm afraid I do not understand.
Azula: (condescendingly) You said the tides would not allow us to bring the ship in. Do the tides command this ship?

(Cut back to the profile of the captain, who looks over at Azula nervously.)

Captain: No, Princess.

(Cut to behind Azula looking out over the ocean.)

Azula: And if I were to have you thrown overboard, would the tides think twice about smashing you against the rocky shore?

(Cut to profile of the captain, who gulps and closes his eyes.)

Captain: (nervously) No, Princess.

(Cut once more to behind Azula. She pushes a strand of hair from her face, then turns around while speaking.)

Azula: Well, then, maybe you should worry less about the tides who've already made up their mind about killing you and worry more about me, who's still mulling it over.
Captain: (quickly) I'll pull us in. (The captain bows respectfully and runs off toward the cabin. Azula glares at him as he leaves.)

Yeah, "good soldier." Roll Eyes Azula was an effective destroyer, but I'd be surprised if any real professional soldiers would want to work with her.
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annoni-no
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« Reply #514 on: Oct 29, 2013 05:13 pm »


How do I actually start my input without sounding bias?  Look, Iroh favored Zuko, he made him into Lu Ten 2.0.  I believe he took out his anger at Ozai and focused it on Azula..............again, no proof of that, just my own opinion.  He would never take on Ozai, saying it would be just two siblings fighting over the throne and yet he encouraged Zuko to do so...............and yet make sure he took Katara along for the ride.  

No one has said that Iroh wasn't closer to Zuko, but no has given any compelling evidence that he actively disliked Azula either, let alone hated her.  Everything he said and did in regard to her were based on her actual behavior and the fact that she was an actual threat.  Her own behavior confirmed every "mean" thing he ever said about her and every warning about her gave to Zuko.  If you have no evidence to support your opinion that Iroh was taking out his anger at Ozai on her, why do you keep asserting that the people who are arguing against that position are wrong?

The difference between Iroh fighting Ozai and Zuko fighting Azula was that Ozai had already been acknowledged as the rightful ruler of the Fire Nation.  Iroh attacking and deposing him would constitute a coup d'etat.  Azula was only the heir apparent and Zuko could still claim a blood right to the throne.  That was apparently good enough under Fire Nation law for him to challenge her for the position of heir, though not Fire Lord (Azula was never coronated).  Besides, as I explained above, Zuko would have needed to go the Fire Nation regardless of where Azula was going to be to prevent civil unrest once the Fire Nation forces were defeated.  Neither Iroh nor Zuko had him go to the Fire Nation  with the goal of fighting Azula.  It was assumed that she would be his primary obstacle once he was there though, and Zuko probably still wasn't good enough to take her in a fight; hence, Katara.

Look, Azula really messed up, she did horrible things, but she was a good soldier for her country.  Zuko would have done the same thing if he was in Azula's shoes.  I'm not excusing her for her past mistakes, she did shoot the avatar with lightening, Katara thankfully brought him back.  She shot Zuko and Katara brought him back.  The winners write the history books.  Azula fought for her country just as Katara fought for her country.  There has to be one winner and there has to be one loser.  Zuko chose the right path and stuck with the stronger winner.  He has a bad habit of betraying those just to further his career.  He betrayed his father in that meeting.............then he sided with his uncle, when it got tough, he left Iroh, then he got better and went back to him.  Then he met Azula, Azula gave him what he wanted, so he took it, guilt took over and he turned his back on his father and sister.  Zuko will always be unreliable, always going with the side that seems to be winning.  When he met up with Iroh, Iroh was in the White Lotus camp, surrounded with good guys and then Zuko was sorry.  

Zuko never betrayed anyone to get on the 'winning side.'  Zuko always tried to do what he thought was the right thing.  During the series though, he went through a lot of life changing events that threw his view of the world, and thus what the right thing was, completely upside down and inside out.  He didn't betray his father in that meeting: he spoke out against a general who wanted throw away the lives of Fire Nation citizens - his people, who as their Crown Prince he is supposed to lead and protect.  He didn't realize that because of a technicality of etiquette he was insulting his father.  The moment he did though, he was down on his hand and needs begging for forgiveness.  Even after his father burned off half his face, Zuko was still loyal to him.  Iroh chose to go with Zuko when he was banished.  Zuko didn't drag him along.  

When Zuko separated from him in the Earth Kingdom, it wasn't because he didn't care about Iroh anymore or was 'betraying' him.  He just felt that they saw the world too differently to continue traveling together.  Instead of fighting with someone he loved, he decided to get some space.  When they next met, Iroh was badly wounded and Zuko had had time to get his own head straightened out and gain enough perspective for a new appreciation of Iroh and his philosophy (Zuko Alone).  

Throughout all of this, he was still loyal to the Fire Nation, even though he'd been declared a traitor.  When Azula offered him a chance to not only take down the Fire Nation's greatest enemy, but also restore his honor - which he had been fighting for for 3 years - of course he sided with her.  That had always been his goal up to this point in the series.  If he'd had any remotely plausible way to capture Aang himself before she arrived, he would have.  Iroh only convinced him to free Appa because there was nothing he could actually do with the bison.  Even that small act of letting go of his goals caused him to become physically ill with the resulting identity crisis.

By that time though, he'd seen enough that he was beginning to question whether he'd been right to support the Fire Nation as it was, even if he couldn't consciously admit it to himself.  The fact that Iroh, someone he trusted and respected deeply, had sided with "the enemy" probably contributed to that doubt.  And Zuko still didn't turn his back on Iroh.  He didn't break him out of prison, but he did visit (for advice, but still) and brought his favorite foods.

By the Day of Black Sun, Zuko had decided he'd been wrong to support Ozai, and that Aang's side was the right one.  This was the only time he actually changed his moral perspective.  Furthermore, he had every reason to think he was joining the losing side.  He doesn't know that he's in a children's cartoon where Aang is the hero and the hero always wins.  What he does know that even with the entire military might of Ba Sing Se, the Avatar lost.  Not only that, but he saw Aang himself killed by his sister, and even if he expected the Spirit Water to revive him, he had no reason to think Azula or his father couldn't kill Aang again, permanently, if it came to another fight.  He even saw that the invasion itself was a complete rout for the Avatar's forces as he was escaping.  If he were truly that selfish, then the logical thing to do would have been for him to go on the run since had already declared himself a traitor instead of joining a pathetic guerrilla force that had proved themselves to incapable of stopping the FN.  He was so sure that the Avatar's side was the right one that he even offered himself up as their prisoner if that was the only way for him to help.  This looks like a fantastic arrangement for him...how?  Yes, things worked out well for him in the end, but assuming they were always going to is hindsight bias.  From everything Zuko knew, joining the Avatar was more likely to leave him a martyr than the next Fire Lord.

Finally, Zuko ran to release Iroh immediately after he declared his true loyalties to his father even though the safest thing for him to do would have been to leave as quickly as possible.  The only reason they didn't meet and Zuko apologize sooner was because Iroh had already freed himself.  He didn't fake being sorry because he was 'surrounded by good guys.'  He was gutted by what he'd done once he realized how terribly he'd behaved.  He was so terrified that Iroh would never forgive him that he couldn't even enter his tent without a pep talk from Katara, and broke down crying when he realized Iroh still loved him even though Zuko was sure he didn't deserve it.  Do you really think Zuko's that good an actor?

Either way, no matter if you love Zuko or love Azula, the firebending siblings will always be their own breed.  Zuko had the love of his mother, uncle, friends, mai and others......Azula only had her father and even at the end, he tossed her aside as she said "you can't treat me like Zuko!"  Luckily, Zuko became firelord but it is tragic that Azula ended up becoming hurt.  

Don't get me wrong, Azula was a witch (I'm using the nice word), she did a lot of horrible things, but I think she did what she did because of her father.  I can't speculate her intentions on the day of "Crossroads"  but in a way I do often wonder if she actually loved her brother to some slim extent..........I mean, she could have easily have had the Dai Li help her out but chose Zuko to save her.  Just wondering.  

A relationship by its nature runs two ways.  One can argue that perhaps her parents and uncle could have done more for her, but I don't think anyone is obligated to keep reaching out to someone who attacks them constantly.  Azula attacked almost everyone who came in contact with her except her father.  

Blaming her upbringing only goes so far.  It does mitigate the severity of her actions, but at 14 she was old enough to start thinking for herself and at least consider whether her morality was actually just.  She showed no indication of ever attempting that.  On top of that, as an above poster said, she was needlessly cruel even when she was acting as a soldier or general, and was even worse when interacting with her brother and 'friends.'  She may have cared about them in her own way, but she deliberately, consciously based those relationships on fear though she had examples other ways to relate to people that she could have learned from if she chose, like Iroh.  If she wants to get better, if she wants the friendship and support that Zuko has, she needs to take responsibility for her own actions.
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« Reply #515 on: Oct 29, 2013 05:32 pm »

^^I often got the feeling that Azula was Ozai's personal attack dog.
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« Reply #516 on: Oct 29, 2013 05:40 pm »

I would agree with that except that Azula seems to have some autonomy in what she does. The only thing she really did under Ozai's order was hunt down Zuko and Iroh. If she was just Ozai's attack dog, she would have stuck with that...but then she decided that she was also going to hunt down the Avatar, and take over Ba Sing Se.

So I'd say she is Ozai's attack dog to an extent but she does kinda rule herself at times.
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« Reply #517 on: Oct 29, 2013 06:26 pm »

^ Maybe she didn't consider herself Ozai's attack dog, but that's immaterial; Ozai himself did. He considered her a SMART attack dog, to be sure, but in the end he never valued her above her capacity for tactical thinking and firebending. And thus, as was shown, this rocked her to her core because everything she did, she did because she thought her father would approve such. People aren't born with the belief that the only reliable relationships are based on fear and power, they have to learn it; she learned it from Ozai. Thus, when Azula is confronted with the truth, that her internalizing of all her father's perverse moral precepts and doing everything he wanted/she thought he would want has not gotten her his love (and has in fact left her that much lonelier), she just breaks.

I would have thought by now, having actually gotten a good long look inside Azula's head, we would have had done with the notion that everything she does is purely for the lulz. A true sadist, a truly evil person, does not internally suffer or drive themselves insane over these sort of things. I'm not for a second justifying what she did in the series, just pointing out that there was a method, a logic (messed up and neurotic, but tragic nonetheless), to her actions and mindset.
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« Reply #518 on: Oct 30, 2013 07:56 am »

I would agree with that except that Azula seems to have some autonomy in what she does. The only thing she really did under Ozai's order was hunt down Zuko and Iroh. If she was just Ozai's attack dog, she would have stuck with that...but then she decided that she was also going to hunt down the Avatar, and take over Ba Sing Se.

So I'd say she is Ozai's attack dog to an extent but she does kinda rule herself at times.

Azula is kind of a last resort though, since she is just as likely to kill her own men as she is her enemies. Kind of like the Joker was the last resort for the mob in beating Batman. You only send her out when the situation gets desperate, since she is certainly going to lower troop morale. Azula would get the job done, but at a great cost.
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« Reply #519 on: Oct 30, 2013 08:58 am »

Since the book is out today, the spoiler speculation thread is locked. Please continue the discussion about The Search, Part 3 in the main discussion thread if you have read it.

The original Part 3 speculation SPOILER FREE thread will remain open for a month for people who have not read the comic but wish to discuss more about the plot of Part 3.
« Last Edit: Oct 30, 2013 09:00 am by Icy_Ashford » Logged



I keep Zuko's dagger & EK coat, Iroh's wisdom, Lu Ten's grave offerings | Mako's scarf, Naga, General Iroh's army outfit, Korra's new formal outfit
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