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Author Topic: The Rift Part 1 - Speculation (NO SPOILERS!) [Expected 5 March'14]  (Read 72670 times)
Spirit of Flame
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« Reply #25 on: Jul 24, 2013 09:12 pm »

You left out the part where exterminating the Air Nomads was a totally justifiable wartime measure, along with some talk about the Fire Nation's various genocides and whatnot was just the eggs one needs to break while making an omelet. Along with some stuff about how the Avatar was always holding back the world from an Industrial Revolution because they're a walking evil green aesop.

But other than that, SoF, that's definitely the most complete and glowing apologia I've seen for Sozin.

Mind you, I said his original intentions were probably very good ("Our country is doing really great and people are happy, let's make the other countries happy too") but as his ideas met resistance, instead of just letting it go, he kept adjusting to the circumstances of this resistance until little was probably left of his original purpose. He probably never had any intention to exterminate anyone at the beginning. The only reason he wiped out the Air Nomads was because the Avatar resisted him and he felt the next Avatar would inevitably do so as well, but had Roku sided with him or had been more open to the "possibilities," the entire Air Nomad massacre could have been completely avoided, in addition to all the death caused to the Water Tribes.

I fail to see what was so wrong with Sozin's original intention of spreading the Fire Nation's influence. He just felt that the rest of the world could benefit from the Fire Nation's technological superiority and culture, what's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with it, imho. Instead, of course, of mediating the conflict and being willing to look at things from a different point of view, Roku just caused more problems than he solved. Had he helped Sozin, the Air Nomads would probably still be alive and much more prosperous and advanced than they ever had been, perhaps even holding positions of power and rank in Fire Nation society and the only price they'd probably have to pay is tribute and salute to a Firebending emperor.

Unless you feel that the Fire Lord didn't have a divine right to rule over the other nations or that one of the other nation's rulers had more of a divine right than the Fire Lord, I'm not seeing the issue with Sozin's original proposition.
« Last Edit: Jul 24, 2013 09:14 pm by Spirit of Flame » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: Jul 24, 2013 09:15 pm »

Well, the problem is that he was incredibly vague about what "spreading influence" meant, but I think it's notable that Roku thought the whole matter done with after that one conversation, but Sozin went on to conquer a foreign city when he decided to go on with his plan. As the kids say, "That escalated quickly."
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« Reply #27 on: Jul 24, 2013 09:18 pm »

^^ The problem is that 'sharing the culture' meant ruling them. Sozin isn't talking about encouraging trade there, he wants to occupy foreign territory. Last time I checked, that was a no-no.
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Spirit of Flame
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« Reply #28 on: Jul 24, 2013 09:30 pm »

^^ The problem is that 'sharing the culture' meant ruling them. Sozin isn't talking about encouraging trade there, he wants to occupy foreign territory. Last time I checked, that was a no-no.

Yes, you are exactly correct. I think Sozin's issue was that he felt it was his DIVINE RIGHT TO RULE over these nations, not just simply spread cultural influence.

It wasn't simply spreading Fire Nation culture in terms of science and art, but also spreading that part of the culture that was subservient to the Fire Lord as divine sovereign because not only was more Fire Nation culture better for everybody, so was more submission to the Fire Lord because Sozin and the institution of the Fire Lord was best for everyone.

All I'm saying is if hypothetically Roku agreed that the Fire Lord was the best ruler for everyone, he could have helped convince others of this using his own authority as the Avatar and could have prevented a lot of the loss of life that resulted from the war. He could have been Sozin's PR guy and convinced more of the Air Nomads, the Water Tribes and the Earth Kingdom to pay tribute to the Fire Lord and accept Fire Nation cultural influence instead of resisting them. I think this probably would have been better for everybody in the end.
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« Reply #29 on: Jul 24, 2013 09:30 pm »

I'm in favor of a dimensional rift in the space time continuum or whatever.

The story can be 50 pages about Toph trying to close it.
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« Reply #30 on: Jul 24, 2013 09:32 pm »

I zoomed in with my phone, and that statue is most definitely a lady.

As for the story itself, I'm just glad we're getting more Toph. Gene's good at writing her, so if nothing else, at least the Toph parts will be good Cheesy
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« Reply #31 on: Jul 24, 2013 09:39 pm »

He could have been Sozin's PR guy and convinced more of the Air Nomads, the Water Tribes and the Earth Kingdom to pay tribute to the Fire Lord and accept Fire Nation cultural influence instead of resisting them.

Actually, I bet that Roku probably couldn't have, in all those cases. The Air Nomads didn't seem like they would care about anything the Fire Nation had to offer, and there were likely rivalry issues with the Earth Kingdom. The Tribes might have been more receptive, but I think it's incredibly naive to think that any nation would just bow to another like that.

I mean, there are countries out there who hate American influence so much they don't even want our iPhones, and that's a way better deal that what Sozin had in mind.
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aa623
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« Reply #32 on: Jul 24, 2013 09:49 pm »

Perhaps she's an Avatar? Or maybe she's another historical figure who's story mirrors what's going on with the Gaang or maybe both.
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« Reply #33 on: Jul 24, 2013 09:52 pm »

All I'm saying is if hypothetically Roku agreed that the Fire Lord was the best ruler for everyone, he could have helped convince others of this using his own authority as the Avatar and could have prevented a lot of the loss of life that resulted from the war. He could have been Sozin's PR guy and convinced more of the Air Nomads, the Water Tribes and the Earth Kingdom to pay tribute to the Fire Lord and accept Fire Nation cultural influence instead of resisting them. I think this probably would have been better for everybody in the end.

So basically, you want him to sell out the entire world to support his friend's megalomania?

Thanks but no thanks. I liked the Roku from the show better. He might have made some mistakes, but at least he had some respect for the other nations, and didn't think that allowing them to live as slaves was somehow a good deal.
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« Reply #34 on: Jul 24, 2013 09:53 pm »

Actually, the Roku of the comics reminds me of Book 1 Zuko: there's no problem so large that it can't be punched into submission... and then he loses.
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« Reply #35 on: Jul 24, 2013 10:00 pm »

Perhaps she's an Avatar? Or maybe she's another historical figure who's story mirrors what's going on with the Gaang or maybe both.

Or she could be from the eighth dimension and caused the rift in the time-space continuum in the first place.
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« Reply #36 on: Jul 24, 2013 10:06 pm »

The headgear on the statue is derived from ancient Chinese fashion and I'm not sure which dynasty (Edit: Appears to be Han Dynasty) it hails from but from what I've seen in plenty of Chinese period dramas, only the royal emperors wear that kind of headgear that is flat on top. The females wear headgear similar to what Toph and Katara wore to the fancy party in "City of Walls & Secrets".

I hope the rift is both literal and figure of speech.

Edit: Ah, I found a link to the hatgear! Added to my post.
« Last Edit: Jul 24, 2013 10:11 pm by Icy_Ashford » Logged



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« Reply #37 on: Jul 24, 2013 10:11 pm »

Perhaps she's an Avatar? Or maybe she's another historical figure who's story mirrors what's going on with the Gaang or maybe both.

Or she could be from the eighth dimension and caused the rift in the time-space continuum in the first place.
Equally as plausible.

I'm guess that it could be referring to Aang and Roku's little tiff?

Do we know how many more comics they're planning/a time frame for how much longer we'll be getting them? Or are we just going to keep being surprised?
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« Reply #38 on: Jul 24, 2013 10:11 pm »

The headgear on the statue is derived from ancient Chinese fashion and I'm not sure which dynasty (Edit: Appears to be Han Dynasty) it hails from but from what I've seen in plenty of Chinese period dramas, only the royal emperors wear that kind of headgear that is flat on top. The females wear headgear similar to what Toph and Katara wore to the fancy party in "City of Walls & Secrets".

I hope the rift is both literal and figure of speech.

Edit: Ah, I found a link to the hatgear! Added to my post.

I would swear I saw that hat somewhere in the cartoon, on an old man. I think he was in green.
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« Reply #39 on: Jul 24, 2013 10:18 pm »

Well, the problem is that he was incredibly vague about what "spreading influence" meant...

Actually, he wasn't vague. If I'm remembering correctly, he told Roku it was time for them to expand their empire.


I zoomed in with my phone, and that statue is most definitely a lady.

As for the story itself, I'm just glad we're getting more Toph. Gene's good at writing her, so if nothing else, at least the Toph parts will be good Cheesy

I thought Toph's entire story from The Promise was boring. I just hope her dumb students aren't in a single panel of this next installment.

But I think we should all speculate on what could possibly be the most pointlessly needless melodramatic plot premise or red herring that Mr. Yang could throw at us just to see if we end up being right.

Perhaps a rift is formed when the group becomes divided after Sokka tries to kill Toph because she insulted Boomerang. As a B Plot, Zuko killed himself because he found out Ursa wasn't his real mother.
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« Reply #40 on: Jul 24, 2013 10:23 pm »

I would swear I saw that hat somewhere in the cartoon, on an old man. I think he was in green.
This?



Nope. I don't really recall seeing any man with a flat hat in ATLA. Hmm...
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« Reply #41 on: Jul 24, 2013 10:24 pm »

Well, the problem is that he was incredibly vague about what "spreading influence" meant...

Actually, he wasn't vague. If I'm remembering correctly, he told Roku it was time for them to expand their empire.

I went to check the transcript and apparently that whole scene was deleted from ASN's copy. Sad


This?

http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/atla/205/482.jpg

Nope. I don't really recall seeing any man with a flat hat in ATLA. Hmm...

No, I'm picturing something dark green and white. Dang this cold medication.
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Mr Grieves
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« Reply #42 on: Jul 24, 2013 10:25 pm »

The headgear on the statue is derived from ancient Chinese fashion and I'm not sure which dynasty (Edit: Appears to be Han Dynasty)

Where's Qin Shi Huang when you need him?
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« Reply #43 on: Jul 24, 2013 10:30 pm »

The headgear on the statue is derived from ancient Chinese fashion and I'm not sure which dynasty (Edit: Appears to be Han Dynasty)

Where's Qin Shi Huang when you need him?

Don't know, I think he was banned or something. Not sure really Undecided
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Loopy
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« Reply #44 on: Jul 24, 2013 10:32 pm »

Yes, that's joke. Wink
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« Reply #45 on: Jul 24, 2013 10:37 pm »

Well, the problem is that he was incredibly vague about what "spreading influence" meant...

Actually, he wasn't vague. If I'm remembering correctly, he told Roku it was time for them to expand their empire.

I went to check the transcript and apparently that whole scene was deleted from ASN's copy. Sad


Sozin [to Roku]:
Quote
"We should share this prosperity with the rest of the world. In our hands is the most successful empire in history. It's time we expanded it!"
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UnownLegend
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« Reply #46 on: Jul 24, 2013 11:57 pm »

so dont know if this has been brought up, but any chance that the rift refers to aang and roku somehow? meh, thats probably wishful thinking on my part
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« Reply #47 on: Jul 24, 2013 11:58 pm »

so dont know if this has been brought up, but any chance that the rift refers to aang and roku somehow? meh, thats probably wishful thinking on my part

The Rift 2: The Widening
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« Reply #48 on: Jul 25, 2013 06:54 am »

Well once again, we have a cover image that gives us a whole lot to chew on.

*gigglesnort*

It's so obvious the rift is either gonna be:

Between Toph and her parents
Between Suki and Sokka
An actual dimensional rift
LOL something among the citizens that we really has no foundation

Yeah, my money is on the last one. :|

I'm trying to think up a way for Azula to be involved, possibly as a villain, but I'm not really coming up with anything worthwhile or plausible.

Please. Since when did we need foundation and plausible reasoning for any of comics?
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Spirit of Flame
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« Reply #49 on: Jul 25, 2013 07:01 am »

He could have been Sozin's PR guy and convinced more of the Air Nomads, the Water Tribes and the Earth Kingdom to pay tribute to the Fire Lord and accept Fire Nation cultural influence instead of resisting them.

Actually, I bet that Roku probably couldn't have, in all those cases. The Air Nomads didn't seem like they would care about anything the Fire Nation had to offer, and there were likely rivalry issues with the Earth Kingdom. The Tribes might have been more receptive, but I think it's incredibly naive to think that any nation would just bow to another like that.

I mean, there are countries out there who hate American influence so much they don't even want our iPhones, and that's a way better deal that what Sozin had in mind.

The Air Nomads were very strict pacifists and would have probably submitted just to avoid combat regardless of their own personal opinions on Sozin as a person. They probably begged Sozin and the Fire Nation to spare them right before the comet came and tried to work out a treaty, but were unable or unwilling to turn Aang over. But had Roku sided with Sozin a little more, Sozin would have never felt threatened by the Air Nomads since the Avatar was not a threat. The Airbenders would not have fought a battle they could not win unless they were forced by Sozin himself and could have been effective diplomats for the Fire Nation.

The Water Tribes would have probably also been easy to "convert." Having the Avatar on your side gives you a lot of clout and so does having the support of all the Air Temples. The Water Tribe would have probably fell in line because much like the Air Nomads they probably wouldn't have seen too much point in fighting if Sozin's forces were more advanced and if all Sozin was asking for was their loyalty. And with the Avatar on Sozin's side saying "Trust me, he's cool, bro. It's better than going to war and you gain more than you lose. " the Water Tribes would have probably respected the Avatar's judgement.

Most fighting would have been contained to the Earth Kingdom and gradually much of the Earth Kingdom would begin laying down its arms when news came of the Air Nomads and Water Tribes gave their loyalty and resources to the conquest and of Sozin beastin' it in battle. And with Roku on the FN side as well, Earth Kingdom elites could have been smoothed over or intimidated into just accepting Sozin's rule as opposed to losing their lives or their wealth pointlessly resisting. Had Roku used his Avatar authority to promote Sozin and give Sozin more legitimacy in the eyes of the other nations, untold amounts of devastation and disorder could have prevented and Sozin could have ended up being the Alexander the Great of the Avatar world where people just saw no point in fighting him and were only expected to report to an appointed governor. Sozin could have become so feared and so respected by even those he conquered that acting "more Fire Nation," could have become the hip thing to do just as Greek influence bled through Alexander's empire. As long as all Sozin asked for was their loyalty, some cash and promised not to rape their women, he's have been a huge success with Roku on his side.

Instead, Roku made himself and the Avatar not only an obstacle, but an outright enemy of the Fire Nation, which was pretty much the cause of so much of the needless suffering brought by the war since it made enemies out of the closest nations in the cycle to Roku.


So basically, you want him to sell out the entire world to support his friend's megalomania?

It should have been clear to Sozin's best friend, if not the first time Sozin proposed the idea then eventually, that Sozin was deadset on his plan and that he wasn't going to let Roku or anyone else stand in the way of what he felt was his divine right. At that point Roku had only three options:

1.) He could have stood by and did nothing, let Sozin do what he wanted, but not actively support him. Personal policy of non-interventionism.

2.) He could have killed Sozin and stopped the war before it really began.

3.) He could have lent his services as an ambassador for Sozin's empire and acted as mediator between the Fire Nation and the other nations.

One would have just resulted in more unnecessary death and destruction. Death and destruction the Avatar could use its power and authority to prevent, so that's a no-no. And as much as Roku goes on about how he wishes he'd killed Sozin for the sake of the world, it would have done very little. Let's say Azulon was old enough to take the throne afterward and preserve order, is he going to just forget the death of his father at the hands of the Avatar? Heck no. He'd want revenge and to do his father justice by continuing with the dream Sozin had. Roku would have probably killed Sozin just to end up facing Sozin's very angry and powerful son and a very pissed off Fire Nation right behind him. Was Roku willing and able to effectively destroy the entire Fire Nation royal famly, potentially throwing his entire country into chaos, undoing all that prosperity, or making himself, the Avatar, its tyrant just to keep peace but was unwilling to compromise on some tradition of segregation that may or may not have even existed for a good chunk of the Avatar's first centuries and permit/mediate a war that for a minimal loss of life could potentially allow for a greater world cultural exchange and allow other less advanced civilizations to progress faster than they could by themselves just because maybe it might result in some imperial hegemony and race mixing? It's not okay for the Fire Lord to rule the other nations for the "benefit of the world" because it goes against tradition but it's okay for you rob the Fire Nation of its traditional leadership for the same reason? Roku can decide for the world what traditions it's allowed to sacrifice or keep but Sozin can't have any say whatsoever cause Roku doesn't like hearing it?

Thanks but no thanks. I liked the Roku from the show better. He might have made some mistakes, but at least he had some respect for the other nations, and didn't think that allowing them to live as slaves was somehow a good deal.

I would have liked seeing the Hellenized Air Nomads and Southern Water Tribe living as respected Imperial citizens and working as advisers and allies to the Fire Nation royal family instead of you know...dead! But unfortunately Roku had to be a complete moron and drag whole populations down with him, ending with an entire race virtually extinct, 100 years of unnecessary bloodshed and his people falling into moral and spiritual decay.

Forget all that "THIS IS SPARTA," bull****. If I was a Waterbender, I'd much rather live as a successful lower class member of one of the world's most powerful and wealthiest empires under a Firebending royal family than be first class and "independent," just to be poor, broke and destitute and mask my ego and pride under the guise of nationalism. As long as the conquering force respects my ancient cultural and spiritual traditions, I'm more than happy to adopt some of theirs which compliment my world view and chances are as time goes on and my people adopt more Fire Nation culture, some of them may even marry into the extended royal family themselves. The entire Southern Water Tribe being more something like Yu Dao is far more preferable than what the Southern Water Tribe got thanks to Roku's foolishness.

Even now, Ghost Roku still says "the problem was that I didn't kill Sozin when I had the chance." No, Roku, the problem was that you were a narrow minded fool who could never do what you had to do for the greater benefit of the world and could never see these things beyond your little bubble and because of you the world suffered. Even Korra's a better Avatar than you ever were, you wannabe Kyoshi.  Angry
« Last Edit: Jul 25, 2013 07:04 am by Spirit of Flame » Logged

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