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Author Topic: Aang and Roku's relationship  (Read 8437 times)
ThePeacefulGuru
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« on: Dec 05, 2012 12:40 am »

What do you guys think of the rift that formed between Aang and Roku in the Promise? I mean Aang broke Roku off the amulets (there might be another name for it but I can't think of it right now) that's significant... if Aang no-longer takes/asks for Roku's advice who among the past Avatars will he turn to? Do you think we'll see the ramifications of this in later comics and/or in LOK flashbacks?
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Singe
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« Reply #1 on: Dec 05, 2012 02:04 am »

The old Avatars focus on the status quo. They are against change.
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Loopy
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 05, 2012 11:08 pm »

What do you guys think of the rift that formed between Aang and Roku in the Promise?

Roku was written so out-of-character, taking one piece of one argument he had with Sozin and turning it into his entire driving force and fanatical belief, that I found myself unable to care.

if Aang no-longer takes/asks for Roku's advice who among the past Avatars will he turn to?

Katara.

Do you think we'll see the ramifications of this in later comics and/or in LOK flashbacks?

Comics, yes. LoK, no.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #3 on: Dec 06, 2012 03:28 pm »

The old Avatars focus on the status quo. They are against change.

I dunno, but as far as I can remember, we only heard Roku's opinion. For all we know, Kyoshi/Kuruk/Yangchen could be totally change-friendly.
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plastroncafe
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« Reply #4 on: Dec 06, 2012 03:31 pm »

I guess this depends on whether or not they're static entities or dynamic. Are the past lives capable of change, or are they merely echos of a time past?
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Singe
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 06, 2012 04:21 pm »

The old Avatars focus on the status quo. They are against change.

I dunno, but as far as I can remember, we only heard Roku's opinion. For all we know, Kyoshi/Kuruk/Yangchen could be totally change-friendly.

Kyoshi when she created the Dai-Li and helped the King stay in power.
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 06, 2012 07:45 pm »

I guess this depends on whether or not they're static entities or dynamic. Are the past lives capable of change, or are they merely echos of a time past?

Are they even real, or just reflections of Aang's self?
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ThePeacefulGuru
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 06, 2012 08:47 pm »

I think it's safe to assume they are real in the sense that 1 they existed and lived and 2 Aang truly does experience speaking with them and seeing the things they show him, he's not hallucinating or talking to himself.

I think that like everyone else, we have to take them as individuals. As someone already pointed out Kyoshi created drastic measures to protect peace, both by creating the Dai Li and when she created Kyoshi Island to protect her people from chin the conqueror.

Roku, while in this earlier instance was correct, had already shown some evidence of being a hard lined "this is the way it is" kind of guy, I'm talking about an early conversation we saw between him and Sozin when Sozin first told Roku his idea
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 07, 2012 04:46 am »

Kyoshi when she created the Dai-Li and helped the King stay in power.

Actually, she didn't hep the Earth King to stay in power. She created the Dai Li to protect the culture of the Earth Kingdom - with, or without the Earth King. She was rather unimpressed by Chin too, when he was just about to overthrow him. She only confronted the tyrant when he was looking for trouble.
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plastroncafe
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plastronc
« Reply #9 on: Dec 07, 2012 11:56 am »

I guess this depends on whether or not they're static entities or dynamic. Are the past lives capable of change, or are they merely echos of a time past?

Are they even real, or just reflections of Aang's self?

If we didn't have canon instances of Roku and Kyoshi manifesting through Aang's body I'd say the latter. But we do, so maybe both?
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ThePeacefulGuru
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 07, 2012 02:23 pm »

I think their general worldviews are set in stone at this point, I think if they are at all dynamic it's in the sense that they are capable of applying that worldview to what is going on in the mortal world, I think Roku is a little bit stuck on the idea that balance means four defined separate nations.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 07, 2012 02:33 pm »

I think their general worldviews are set in stone at this point, I think if they are at all dynamic it's in the sense that they are capable of applying that worldview to what is going on in the mortal world.

Well, you can apply this to all Avatars we had so far. Even Aang was infelxible with his worldview (As his Air Nomad standards are Air Nomad standards what he should follow by the letter). And I don't even start with Korra (Lady Let's Break Some Stuff  Roll Eyes).
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Keeper of Suki's firebending ancestry, the Kyoshi Warrior dojo, the love potion made from rainbows and sunsets and the mecha tanks.

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ThePeacefulGuru
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 07, 2012 04:52 pm »

Aang is a good air nomad and I think his inflexibility in life at least, might partly stem from desperation to preserve what remains of his own culture, which I can hardly blame him for... I think the ones that are truly inflexible are the avatars that have already passed, after all they aren't in the world anymore so therefore it's logical that they can't be altered by it anymore.

Korra is...blunt, bull-headed, she may have had somewhat of a lesson in patience and managed to find her own spirituality at the end of season 1, but I think it'll take a little more than that
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 07, 2012 06:33 pm »

I'd really like to hear from Kuruk, though, because he's the only Avatar we can be sure wasn't inflexible in life. His advice to Aang might just consist of, "Yeah, do what you want, but watch out for any evil spirits hanging around your girlfriend." Roku and Kyoshi were both presented in ways that could inspire lesser writers to consider them inflexible people.
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Lavanya Six
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« Reply #14 on: Dec 07, 2012 09:07 pm »

I think their general worldviews are set in stone at this point, I think if they are at all dynamic it's in the sense that they are capable of applying that worldview to what is going on in the mortal world.

Well, you can apply this to all Avatars we had so far. Even Aang was infelxible with his worldview (As his Air Nomad standards are Air Nomad standards what he should follow by the letter). And I don't even start with Korra (Lady Let's Break Some Stuff  Roll Eyes).

To be fair, Korra evolves a little from that point. She stops sweating the small-scale stuff like street crime.

But if her confrontations with Tarrlok and Amon gives us the outline of her worldview, it seems to be "Don't oppress the masses. Or I'll cut you."
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ThePeacefulGuru
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 07, 2012 09:21 pm »

Clearly Korra doesn't put up with much crap, I see her as the type who's like "You're going to do this the slow, legal way? With Beurrocrisy and Politics? Are you Nuts? Just turn the power back on and arrest the cops!" I think that's what she was thinking after Tarrlok had Makko, Bolin, and Asami arrested and Tenzin was going to try to reason with people Korra had already determined to be unreasonable.
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Avatar Lizzy
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 07, 2012 11:35 pm »

I think their general worldviews are set in stone at this point, I think if they are at all dynamic it's in the sense that they are capable of applying that worldview to what is going on in the mortal world.

Well, you can apply this to all Avatars we had so far. Even Aang was infelxible with his worldview (As his Air Nomad standards are Air Nomad standards what he should follow by the letter). And I don't even start with Korra (Lady Let's Break Some Stuff  Roll Eyes).

To be fair, Korra evolves a little from that point. She stops sweating the small-scale stuff like street crime.

But if her confrontations with Tarrlok and Amon gives us the outline of her worldview, it seems to be "Don't oppress the masses. Or I'll cut you."

In Korra's defense, Avatar Kyoshi's methods didn't seem any better. Korra's still learning the basics of leadership, while Kyoshi's ways of dealing with opponents as an experienced adult came down to "How DARE you question your Avatar?"      
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Lavanya Six
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« Reply #17 on: Dec 08, 2012 10:15 am »

In Korra's defense, Avatar Kyoshi's methods didn't seem any better. Korra's still learning the basics of leadership, while Kyoshi's ways of dealing with opponents as an experienced adult came down to "How DARE you question your Avatar?"     

In Kyoshi's defense, being the Avatar seems to require you not to be beholden to any individual government. Otherwise how could the various nations see them as a fair dealer if they bent their knee to some king? Plus the two men who ask her to bend a knee weren't in positions of moral authority over her. Chin was a brutal tyrant, and the Earth King was an incompetent who wanted Kyoshi to smash the peasants protesting his failures.

More generally, Kyoshi seems to have generally had a hands-off approach to being the Avatar. We know that Yangchen had a strict "no war" policy that outlasted her death by a generation. Kyoshi, by contrast, didn't kill Chin until she was well into her forties, and apparently let the Earth Kingdom's civil war run for a while. It's only when Chin tried to conquer her home village and "throw the world out of balance" (maybe hang the village's safety over the Avatar's head?) that she iced him.
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ThePeacefulGuru
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 08, 2012 09:14 pm »

Clearly the Avatar needs to remain as impartial as they can be, I don't think Kyoshi was too great at this since she did let Chin get as far as her home town (which judging by the map was pretty far)
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Lavanya Six
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 09, 2012 07:17 pm »

Clearly the Avatar needs to remain as impartial as they can be, I don't think Kyoshi was too great at this since she did let Chin get as far as her home town (which judging by the map was pretty far)

<fanwank>

From a certain point of view, Kyoshi was more impartial than Aang or Korra. Going by her age and lack of intervention, Kyoshi seems to have viewed the Earth Kingdom's civil war as not falling under her purview as Avatar. She told Aang that Chin was scum, but it seems him being scum didn't matter until he started threatening the balance of the world. (Which I'm guessing was trying to make the Avatar submit to his authority by threatening Kyoshi Village.)

And later with the Great Peasant Rebellion in Ba Sing Se, Kyoshi didn't get involved until the Earth King summoned her.

Roku seems to have had the same philosophy as Avatar. He comes down hard on Sozin when he tries to invade the Earth Kingdom, but otherwise he doesn't seem to have done a whole lot to otherwise oppose Sozin. The Fire Nation was already prepped for imperialism during the first invasion, and twelve years after Roku's death they go flat out genocidal in a global coordinated offensive.

So, to really stretch the scant evidence we have, Kyoshi and Roku seemed to view their Avatar duties to be strictly limited: don't allow one nation to invade another, don't interfere with domestic affairs unless explicitly invited by that government (in which case all bets are off), and don't allow any challenge to the Avatar's position as an impartial moderator.

By contrast, Aang and Korra are entirely wiling to involve themselves in domestic affairs if the situation is serious enough, or could affect the outside world. Aang temporarily overthrows the Dai Li for the sake of the war effort, for instance. Later on, Aang explicitly tells Toph that he wouldn't involve himself in something like the Yakone case if not for the fact he was a freakish bloodbender. Unlike Roku, Korra involves herself in the Equalist situation well before it moves beyond a domestic terrorism issue. (No more Sozins?)

And with what little we know of the past five Avatars, Aang/Korra are just the pendulum swinging back. Yangchen was a hardcore interventionist. Kuruk is a mystery. Perhaps in reaction, Kyoshi and Roku were hands off except under limited circumstances. Then after Roku screwed up so badly with Sozin that the whole world blew up in his face, Aang and Korra took a more activist role.

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Singe
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« Reply #20 on: Dec 10, 2012 02:05 am »

Korra is like the Naruto and the Ichigo kind of heroes that will get themselves involved no matter who tells them not to.

I see Korra in a new world where the place of the Avatar has to change. Just like how US military moved from large scale war with countries to different scale when dealing with terrorists.

Also given the circumstance of Republic City, it falls automatically under the Avatar's jurisdiction since it was Aang that led to its creation.
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ThePeacefulGuru
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« Reply #21 on: Dec 10, 2012 10:58 am »

I'd agree with that and I think it's clear that Korra grew up with the stories of past Avatars and thinking that the authority and prestiege of the position would carry out and have others defer to her. Obviously not...
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 10, 2012 02:56 pm »

Korra is like the Naruto and the Ichigo kind of heroes that will get themselves involved no matter who tells them not to.

I see Korra in a new world where the place of the Avatar has to change. Just like how US military moved from large scale war with countries to different scale when dealing with terrorists.

Also given the circumstance of Republic City, it falls automatically under the Avatar's jurisdiction since it was Aang that led to its creation.

When you think about it, when Aang severed ties with Roku and possibly his other past lives (because their views are now outdated), he started a new line of Avatars. Korra is the first modern one. She has to find a way to fit the Avatar into a world that has her position limited. Case and point, she is not above the law like an Avatar was back then.

But now that you know mentioned, if the city falls into chaos that was worse than Amon's uprising, would she be the leader of the city or decide it's fate if it's beyond saving?
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 10, 2012 03:08 pm »

She has to find a way to fit the Avatar into a world that has her position limited.

Has it? Most of Korra's limitations came from the fact that she wasn't a fully realized Avatar.

And Aang pretty much played Judge-Jury-Executioner with Yakone.
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« Reply #24 on: Jul 25, 2014 01:02 am »

I was reading the Rift Part 2, and there is a mention on what Aang did in The Promise, when at the end he decided to break the connection with Roku. Personally, I find the comics to be moderately good, but there are moments when the characters seem to jump out of character so noticeably that is just jarring to watch. This was one of those instances. I just can't imagine Aang destroying his connection with Roku, and I don't find Roku's actions to be in-character as well. Thoughts?
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