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Poll
Question: Rate This Episode:
10 - 35 (21.3%)
9 - 20 (12.2%)
8 - 38 (23.2%)
7 - 38 (23.2%)
6 - 14 (8.5%)
5 - 10 (6.1%)
4 - 4 (2.4%)
3 - 1 (0.6%)
2 - 1 (0.6%)
1 - 3 (1.8%)
Total Voters: 160

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Author Topic: [117] The Northern Air Temple  (Read 13593 times)
ricco
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« Reply #50 on: Sep 15, 2010 07:22 am »

Did anyone else notice that Teo's father was designing the fire nation's drill?



See?? ^_^


i love it when you find things like this that show how far in advance things have been planned
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« Reply #51 on: Sep 15, 2010 03:15 pm »

I remember reading about it on Wikipedia, or seeing a pop-up that mentioned there was a drawing/design for the Drill in this episode. (I wonder how much the Northern Air Temple, and the other 3, have changed?)
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ricco
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« Reply #52 on: Sep 17, 2010 04:09 am »

^ do you mean since the end of the war?
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Fionordequester
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« Reply #53 on: Oct 16, 2010 03:01 am »

It seems that I have now stumbled upon one of the more controversial episodes to be found in this series.  And quite frankly, I'm amazed at how much hate this Episode gets.  See, even though I personally thought this was a great Episode, it seems there is also a faction of fans who did not enjoy this so much, to the point where they seem to imply that it's actually worse than Episode 4.  I am strongly opposed to that view, but why is it that I say that?  Why is it that people seem to look down on this Episode so much?  Well, find out, today, on...
 
                                               Avatar: The Last Airbender!
 
Anyways, we come across the Gaang (jeez, no matter how many times I say it, it still sounds like a disgusting foot fungus to me...) listening to a guy telling stories to peddle for money...and he sure sounds like it.  It's like he's trying to be this mystical storyteller, but keeps tripping over his lines (It might not be a talking parrot, but a flying..............man) and hasn't figured out how to emphasize words (and LAUGH at those boundtotheEarth by it).  But oh well, he does decently enough I guess.  It's not like he's horrible, just...mediocre.  But whatever, it's time to move on.
 
And for the next two minutes or two, after Aang starts flying again, I am absolutely amazed by the soundtrack here.  Ever since the very beginning, the music accompanying the Gaang flying on Appa has always borne an uncanny resemblance to two of the World Map themes from 7th Saga.  But besides that, both this music, and the next one with Aang trying to outdo Teo, just sounds so intune with what's happening on the show while at the same time, sounding superbly awesome.  
 
As for the contest between Aang and Teo, it is just amazing.  It fits this scene PERFECTLY!  And it's so well composed to!  Seriously, it sounds like the composer took all of the best beats and melodies from these songs...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSAjNWypykQ&p=77D98F68F6DBB35D&playnext=1&index=12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsj5xjoLXtE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjObRm9e81Y&feature=related
 
...and threw them all into one big blender, and created something new and cool from it!
 
In terms of what was done with a scene musically, I'd say both scenes from 2:00-4:20 of this Episode, and the scene in Episode 13 with Iroh's Sumki Horn music are my favorites in my show so far, bar none!  This soundtrack really can get pretty exceptional at times.
 
Anyways, here's where one of the common complaints of this Episode come in, The Mechanic, who I'm going to call Reno for the Episode.  This man gets a lot of hate, to the point where many people who comment on this Episode actually wished that the guy was KILLED by Aang...JEEZ!  Why?!  Why does this guy get so much hate?!

I mean, ok, he did go a bit too far in restructuring the Temple.  Fine.  But you know what?  He's also a kind, compassionate man who did his very best to make life as wonderful for the refugees and his son as he possibly could.  And quite honestly, it was a temple of a dead race, what use was it going to be to anybody?  Your top priority as a human being, as far as I'm concerned, is making the lives of others as pleasant as you possibly can, and always being willing to admit your flaws.  Sure, he may have gone a little far, but as a rather kooky man, it seems to me that whatever harm he did, it was out of lack in certain social areas that a lot of geniuses seem to have rather than any kind of malice.

I mean, the guy's no Zhao, that's for sure.  Anybody who takes as much delight as he does in the prospect of torturing a 12 year old for the rest of his life cannot be entirely right in the head, I'll tell you that much.  As for Aang's rebuttal...

Aang: Nature knows where to stop.

Um, news flash Aang...no it doesn't.  I mean, we ARE talking about the same "Nature" that spawned stuff like disease, Hurrican Katrena, the Meteorite that killed the dinosaurs, causes floods, earthquakes, the Ice Age, and eruptions, all of which was both/either destructive or completely changed the land, right?  Nature has a lot of talents, but "knowing when to stop" has never been one of them.    

Another common complaint I see a lot in this Episode is that the pacing was a little off.  I suppose I can kind of see it if I looked carefully, but honestly, I never noticed on my first viewing.  Sure, some of the Sokka and Reno segments were a little dull, but they weren't very long, and the Aang + Katara and Teo segments more than made up for it.  Mainly, I thought it was really touching how Teo tried to show Aang how what happened isn't as bad as it seemed while showing that he understood at the same time.  

That being said, one thing I can't quite as easily whitewash was how Reno has been making weapons for the Fire Nation for all this time, but even then, I can at least understand why he did it.  And besides, for all we know, Reno was probably purposely making weapons that were inferior and less efficient than what he was capable of.  At the very least, he sure didn't do this willingly.

Speaking of the Fire Nation, one thing I find interesting to note is that for the very first time, the Fire Nation has shown how evil it can be.  Up till now, I thought the Fire Nation was actually relatively...well, maybe not nice, but not nearly as bad as they could've been, especially considering what atrocities many nations in our world have committed over the years.  Episode 6 for example.  Even though all of the Earthbenders were slaves, all of them seemed properly nourished, none of them seemed to have dirty, unclean clothes, and most impressively, when faced with the problem of not enough blankets to go around, what was Tryo's solution?

Prisoner: Tyro, the prisoners are complaining there aren't enough blankets to go around.
Tyro: I'll talk to the guards.


I mean, wow.  So basically, if they needed more blankets, all they needed to do was ask?  That...actually shows a surprising amount of humanity on behalf of the Fire Nation soldiers if you ask me, more than you'd think they'd have.  You have to admit, for a Prison Warden that was described as "a ruthless man", he actually treated them pretty well, all things considered.  I mean, that's about as well as I could've hoped for them to be treated considering that they were part of an army that probably killed a lot of Fire Nation soldiers in their fights.  As for the Warden being oppressive, well, of course he's going to be.  He probably wanted to make it absolutely clear that no mutiny would be tolerated.  That's more being smart than being evil, to me at least.  Don't our prisons do something like that?

Another example that comes to mind is Episode 3.  Despite razing the Southern Air Temple and killing all it's inhabitants, you have to admit, it was pretty awesome how the Fire Nation soldiers left everything intact.  They could've easily raided and destroyed the Temple itself, yet, aside from the deaths of the Airbenders, it seemed pretty much unmolested.  

But no, in stark, STARK contrast to both of these examples, these Fire Nation douches are not only willing to burn the whole temple to the ground, but don't have any qualms about murdering helpless civilians who have no way of defending themselves (bonus points to this show for never shying around the topic of murder by the way)....

Hmm...WAIT A MINUTE!!  SOMETHING JUST OCCURRED TO ME!  I mean, lets think back to Jeong Jeong for a moment.  The guy was a highly talented General in the army right?  But he was a decent man, who finally forsook his ways after the destruction he was causing was starting to get to him right?  I just realized, do you think Jeong Jeong might've been responsible for the destruction of the Airbenders in the Southern Temple?  Do you think THAT might've been the final straw for him, the bloodshed of the peaceful, nonviolent Airbenders and their young students?  And THAT'S why the Temple was left unharmed, because of his reverance for Avatar Roku?  He seems about old enough...

Just thinking about this theory reminds me of Final Fantasy IV, in which Cecil, Commander of his Kingdoms Airforce, pulled his Heel Face Turn because of the guilt he suffered for slaughtering the innocent Mysidians for their Crystals.  If you think about it, if I'm correct, the two share a lot of similarities, and it makes me wonder if the writer wasn't at least partially inspired by either Final Fantasy IV, or a game similar to it.

So, after Aang lets the Fire Nation Emissary go, like an idiot, we come to this Episodes climax.  And I swear, this whole battle, despite what a lot of fans say otherwise, is without a doubt the darkest few minutes of the entire series so far.  I mean sure, Zuko's scarring in Episode 12 is probably a close runner up, but even then, nobody DIED.  Not like they did here.  I mean, can you imagine just how many Fire Nation soldiers must've died in this battle?  I mean, the Gaang has buried them under avalanches, tackled them off cliffs, and, in one particularly shocking moment, ended it BY DROPPING A FRICKEN BOMB ON THEM!!  A bomb blast so powerful in fact, that it ended up blowing up the cliff in front of them...

Aang: Look! They're completely annihlated retreating!

Honestly, screw Aang coming to grips with what happened to his temple "too soon", what I want to know is why he wasn't more upset about was how many Fire Nation soldiers must've gotten killed in this fight.  I mean, I know Aang's been steadily coming to terms with his need to be violent when the situation calls for it, but this still seems like way too large of a leap for him.  Then again, he IS 12, so he probably too impressionable to really hold strong standards the way a lot of adults do.

Also, before ending this Episode, I've got four things left to cover....

One, yet another complaint levied at this Episode.  Apparently, many saw this battle as too "kid friendly", or something dumb like that.  Why?  Just because they used Sludge and Stink Bombs instead of conventional weapons?  Well, first of all, as Sokka said, they didn't have any conventional bombs other than the fuel tank for the air balloon, and secondly, the people are woefully outclassed in terms of pure militiary might.  How else were they possibly going to win outside of resorting to unconventional methods that the Fire Nation probably wasn't trained to deal with?   And as I've said, this battle was anything BUT kid friendly, if the death toll is anything to go by.

Two, many complain that Aang's acceptance of Reno's remodeling didn't seem realistic.  Personally, I thought it was totally realistic.  I mean, we saw in Aang's talks with Teo that Teo was helping him come to terms with what happened, so Aang probably worked out a lot of those issues off screen with Teo.  In addition, Reno and all of the refugees have all proven themselves to be extremely brave and kind individuals who were willing to risk their lives to oppose the Fire Nation, and that's something that Aang, and I think a lot of us, can really aspire to.  

He no doubt has a lot of fear about his responsibilities, so for him, the way the people were willing to defend the Temple probably not only proved him wrong about their lack of respect for it, but probably him with a sense of hope, that maybe HE can be just as brave as them despite how much fear he's no doubt going through.

Thirdly, is it just me, or were those mechanical tanks the most hardcore things on this show yet?  It was just incredible to me how invincible they seemed.  It was like watching a Dragon Ball Z fight all over again, the way that no matter how much power, or how many new methods the heroes found, the villains would just keep getting up, or find ways around it, or render the attack worthless.  Only something like 7 tanks, and it still forced Reno and Sokka to almost give up their lives simply to stop those monsters.  Screw Zhao, these things are where it's at in terms of creative exciting fights.

It certainly didn't hurt that, again, the soundtrack delivers, with an intimidating theme that makes it's introduction in Episode, that serves to emphasize how unstoppable the tanks are, and how hopeless the situation seems for the woefully unprepared refugees.  I hope they use it in the future sometime.

Finally, just a nitpick I have with something Sokka says...

Sokka: Aang, you were right about air power.  As long as we've got the skies we'll have the Fire Nation on the run!

Um, Sokka, I hate to break it to you, but the Fire Nation has already been proven to have to skies as well, LONG before this Episode and it's war balloon ever came.  Again, I refer to Episode 3, in which Aang explains how the Fire Nation couldn't possibly have touched the Southern Air Temple...

Aang: You don't understand, Katara. The only way to get to an airbender temple is on a flying bison, and I doubt the Fire Nation has any flying bison. Right, Appa?

Aang of course was incorrect about this Temple, and of course he would be, since he didn't live here.  But, the point is, the Southern Air Temple is inaccessable by anything but flight, so if the Fire Nation was able to get to it, they probably did it by using flight somehow, whether through animal or machine.  That is all...

Anyways, for the Episodes rating, I'm sorry guys, but I don't care how many detractors it has, I'm giving it an A-.  I personally thought it was a highly entertaining Episode, with some very important messages.  First of all, not getting too attached to material possessions if it becomes an obstacle to providing for your loved ones, secondly, it shows the value of understanding and forgiveness, and thirdly, I think it's a great moral in not automatically assuming the worst in people just because of one or two horrible things that they did, or just because they did something you don't agree with.  We shouldn't immediately judge people before we really get to know them (although we also shouldn't let that stop us from killing any random mugger or enemy soldier that attacks our loved ones of course).
« Last Edit: Oct 16, 2010 03:28 am by Fionordequester » Logged
Zak Crimsonleaf
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« Reply #54 on: Oct 16, 2010 12:16 pm »

Hm. Personally, I liked the episode well enough. I don't really see why anyone would dislike it too severely, but maybe that's just because I'm part of the 'like' faction. Anyway, I never actually noticed the soundtrack you describe as anything overly exceptional (though I agree about Iroh's Sunghi horn) but then again, the soundtrack quality overall is pretty high. I'll take another look and see if I can spot what you mean. About Jeong Jeong, I don't think he's old enough for that, though it is a good idea and I do think that he is definitely a product of an earlier era in the Fire Nation, but the Air Nomads were killed a hundred years ago, and I'd estimate him to be in his sixties at most, probably a bit younger. Yes, the tanks are pretty cool. You'll be seeing them again plenty of times. And actually, prior to now, the Fire Nation did not have air power, I'm pretty sure. Their troops climbed the mountain some other way. This is implied by the emissary's actions at the very end of the episode when they capture the war balloon, they act as though it's new technology. It's just my opinion, of course. Thanks for the analysis, these things are still fun to read.
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« Reply #55 on: Oct 16, 2010 12:37 pm »

Well, about the soundtrack thing, it's main weakness for me is that it's fairly subued, so half the time, you don't really even notice it, therefore, you don't really get anything out of it until you listen closely enough to actually hear it.

As a matter of fact, I was actually going to complain about the music used for the Fire Nation Tanks until I listened more closely to the track used for the tanks, and discovered that "no, actually, it's pretty good".

For me, most of the soundtrack is well done but nothing that for the most part, never really reaches beyond say, a B range.  However, here and there, there are truly exceptional pieces.
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« Reply #56 on: Oct 16, 2010 12:41 pm »

Well, about the soundtrack thing, it's main weakness for me is that it's fairly subued, so half the time, you don't really even notice it, therefore, you don't really get anything out of it until you listen closely enough to actually hear it.

As a matter of fact, I was actually going to complain about the music used for the Fire Nation Tanks until I listened more closely to the track used for the tanks, and discovered that "no, actually, it's pretty good".

For me, most of the soundtrack is well done but nothing that for the most part, never really reaches beyond say, a B range.  However, here and there, there are truly exceptional pieces.
Soundtrack was ok, but had some falts which the episode covered that on how awsome it was.
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Fionordequester
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« Reply #57 on: Oct 16, 2010 12:45 pm »

Ok.  Oh, one other thing, if the Fire Nation climbed up, or otherwise did something without airpower, how on earth were they able to climb up without getting noticed and subsequently pwned by the Airbenders? 

As for the Emissaries excitement, I assumed that this was the very first air powered vehicle they had that could be used as a weapon, and that whatever they used to get up the Airbender mountain, could only be used for transportation and not much else.

As for Jeong, I don't remember them specifying when the Temple was burned, so I thought it was possible that Jeong might've been involved in his younger days.
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Toph Bei Master
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« Reply #58 on: Oct 16, 2010 01:00 pm »

Ok.  Oh, one other thing, if the Fire Nation climbed up, or otherwise did something without airpower, how on earth were they able to climb up without getting noticed and subsequently pwned by the Airbenders? 

As for the Emissaries excitement, I assumed that this was the very first air powered vehicle they had that could be used as a weapon, and that whatever they used to get up the Airbender mountain, could only be used for transportation and not much else.

As for Jeong, I don't remember them specifying when the Temple was burned, so I thought it was possible that Jeong might've been involved in his younger days.
Something tells me that they probably use grappling hooks.
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Fionordequester
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« Reply #59 on: Oct 16, 2010 01:45 pm »

Just to make it clear, THIS is the Episode I posted, not Episode 18.
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« Reply #60 on: Oct 16, 2010 01:49 pm »

Just to make it clear, THIS is the Episode I posted, not Episode 18.
I knew that but I think I answer you question, If you have something different.
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« Reply #61 on: Oct 16, 2010 01:53 pm »

No, see, the thing is, I accidently said I posted 18 when I sent PM's to different people, so I'm bumping this thread to the top so that those who visit the forum can figure out that I probably meant this thread instead of 17.  That was my reasoning anyways.
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« Reply #62 on: Oct 16, 2010 01:55 pm »

No, see, the thing is, I accidently said I posted 18 when I sent PM's to different people, so I'm bumping this thread to the top so that those who visit the forum can figure out that I probably meant this thread instead of 17.  That was my reasoning anyways.
Oh, ok but you got anything to post about this episode cause I want to talk something about it really I though this episode was great.


But overall the wrong post was a good question.
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« Reply #63 on: Oct 16, 2010 02:21 pm »

Well, they never specify the exact date when the temple was burned, but multiple references are made to the Air Nomads having been extinct for a hundred years and the war having started at about that time. And I have no idea how they got up there, maybe they used earthbenders to carve out stairways and ramps, or they just picked really good mountain climbers. As for not being noticed, obviously they would have been noticed, but since Sozin's Comet was present at the time, there wouldn't have been a whole lot the airbenders could do about it. And thanks for the correction about episode 18. Though I am of course looking forward to when you do analyze that one.
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« Reply #64 on: Oct 16, 2010 02:52 pm »

I just noticed that I never posted my mini-review for this episode from a few months ago, so here it is.

positives:
-"good guys" messing something up
-the Mechanist
-Aang actually getting mad at something
-the war balloons

negatives:
-Teo is just so dull, and yet he's supposed to have the "spirit of an airbender"...
-It focused more on Sokka hanging out with the mechanist instead of Aang dealing with the changes to the temple.
-I think the crab metaphor felt like a forced cop out...
-The battle just didn't suck me in or make me care at all, and it's probably my least favorite in the entire series.
-Aang got over the destruction of the temple a little too easily IMO.

rating: 6.5
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« Reply #65 on: Oct 16, 2010 03:32 pm »

Well, they never specify the exact date when the temple was burned, but multiple references are made to the Air Nomads having been extinct for a hundred years and the war having started at about that time. And I have no idea how they got up there, maybe they used earthbenders to carve out stairways and ramps, or they just picked really good mountain climbers. As for not being noticed, obviously they would have been noticed, but since Sozin's Comet was present at the time, there wouldn't have been a whole lot the airbenders could do about it. And thanks for the correction about episode 18. Though I am of course looking forward to when you do analyze that one.
I would start looking at the facts and what they say on the avatarwiki maybe, I don't know whether or not to trust wiki, I heard not to.
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« Reply #66 on: Oct 16, 2010 03:33 pm »

I think you can trust any wiki that states where it got it's sources from.
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« Reply #67 on: Oct 16, 2010 03:36 pm »

I think you can trust any wiki that states where it got it's sources from.
Yeah usually I look stuff up on there it seems more reliable then anyother source that I found I like how it has its own source for the Avatar Universe.
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« Reply #68 on: Oct 16, 2010 04:55 pm »

Anyways, here's where one of the common complaints of this Episode come in, The Mechanic, who I'm going to call Reno for the Episode.  This man gets a lot of hate, to the point where many people who comment on this Episode actually wished that the guy was KILLED by Aang...JEEZ!  Why?!  Why does this guy get so much hate?!

I mean, ok, he did go a bit too far in restructuring the Temple.  Fine.  But you know what?  He's also a kind, compassionate man who did his very best to make life as wonderful for the refugees and his son as he possibly could.  And quite honestly, it was a temple of a dead race, what use was it going to be to anybody?  Your top priority as a human being, as far as I'm concerned, is making the lives of others as pleasant as you possibly can, and always being willing to admit your flaws.  Sure, he may have gone a little far, but as a rather kooky man, it seems to me that whatever harm he did, it was out of lack in certain social areas that a lot of geniuses seem to have rather than any kind of malice.


I didn't realize the Mechanist is why people don't like this episode, or that this episode really received negative reviews. To me the Mechanist doesn't see the value of the cultural history of the Temple, to him it's just a large abandon building complex. Honestly I don't think there is anything but the aestic value of the artworks even left there. The books and scrolls have probably long since rotted away. The Air benders are dead and can no longer live there, it's an empty shell and the dead Air Benders would certainly not want to kill the Mechanist and his people.  I'm honestly disturbed that people wanted Aang to kill the poor man who was just trying to protect his son. Also a Parent doing Dark deeds to protect child I think is a Trope or it should be. As there are many examples of this in many stories.



Quote
I mean, the guy's no Zhao, that's for sure.  Anybody who takes as much delight as he does in the prospect of torturing a 12 year old for the rest of his life cannot be entirely right in the head, I'll tell you that much.  As for Aang's rebuttal...

Aang: Nature knows where to stop.

Um, news flash Aang...no it doesn't.  I mean, we ARE talking about the same "Nature" that spawned stuff like disease, Hurrican Katrena, the Meteorite that killed the dinosaurs, causes floods, earthquakes, the Ice Age, and eruptions, all of which was both/either destructive or completely changed the land, right?  Nature has a lot of talents, but "knowing when to stop" has never been one of them.   

Add to that that if this temple was lower to ground or left untended for longer, trees and vines would envelope the place. Nature never knows where to stop you are right there.

Quote
That being said, one thing I can't quite as easily whitewash was how Reno has been making weapons for the Fire Nation for all this time, but even then, I can at least understand why he did it.  And besides, for all we know, Reno was probably purposely making weapons that were inferior and less efficient than what he was capable of.  At the very least, he sure didn't do this willingly.

Also did you notice previous post of "Reno" drawing? His inventions will come back to haunt the Gaang in future episodes. The Air Blimp and that Drawing he's doing will have major future significance. Unfortunately he is not making inferior work and you will see his works come to fruition later on. Though I do think he also tries to make good on what he's done, again you'll see more in the later two seasons. 

Quote
Speaking of the Fire Nation, one thing I find interesting to note is that for the very first time, the Fire Nation has shown how evil it can be.  Up till now, I thought the Fire Nation was actually relatively...well, maybe not nice, but not nearly as bad as they could've been, especially considering what atrocities many nations in our world have committed over the years. 

I think of many of the FN soilders as "I was just following orders" types. They are not an evil nation, they just have a corrupted leader.

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So, after Aang lets the Fire Nation Emissary go, like an idiot, we come to this Episodes climax.  And I swear, this whole battle, despite what a lot of fans say otherwise, is without a doubt the darkest few minutes of the entire series so far.  I mean sure, Zuko's scarring in Episode 12 is probably a close runner up, but even then, nobody DIED.  Not like they did here.  I mean, can you imagine just how many Fire Nation soldiers must've died in this battle?  I mean, the Gaang has buried them under avalanches, tackled them off cliffs, and, in one particularly shocking moment, ended it BY DROPPING A FRICKEN BOMB ON THEM!!  A bomb blast so powerful in fact, that it ended up blowing up the cliff in front of them...

Thank you for noticing this, few seem to want to admit that most likely that many FN soldiers died that day and due to the actions of Aang and the others. Not that I think it makes him bad but I don't think many could have possibly survived what happened to those tanks. For some reason Aang doesn't feel any FN soldiers died that day...



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Two, many complain that Aang's acceptance of Reno's remodeling didn't seem realistic.  Personally, I thought it was totally realistic.  I mean, we saw in Aang's talks with Teo that Teo was helping him come to terms with what happened, so Aang probably worked out a lot of those issues off screen with Teo.  In addition, Reno and all of the refugees have all proven themselves to be extremely brave and kind individuals who were willing to risk their lives to oppose the Fire Nation, and that's something that Aang, and I think a lot of us, can really aspire to. 

I think this is a sign of Aang's wisdom and someone who is able to come to acceptance quicker then others. He is the type that doesn't want to hold grudges and forgive. He realizes they need a place to live and it's not something personal against the Air Benders. The Hermit crab analogy may not be perfect but it certainly isn't a cop out. The Air Benders ARE gone, would everyone rather there be a FN base there instead?

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Thirdly, is it just me, or were those mechanical tanks the most hardcore things on this show yet?  It was just incredible to me how invincible they seemed.  It was like watching a Dragon Ball Z fight all over again, the way that no matter how much power, or how many new methods the heroes found, the villains would just keep getting up, or find ways around it, or render the attack worthless.  Only something like 7 tanks, and it still forced Reno and Sokka to almost give up their lives simply to stop those monsters.  Screw Zhao, these things are where it's at in terms of creative exciting fights.

It's going to get better is all I will say.

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Finally, just a nitpick I have with something Sokka says...

Sokka: Aang, you were right about air power.  As long as we've got the skies we'll have the Fire Nation on the run!

Um, Sokka, I hate to break it to you, but the Fire Nation has already been proven to have to skies as well, LONG before this Episode and it's war balloon ever came.  Again, I refer to Episode 3, in which Aang explains how the Fire Nation couldn't possibly have touched the Southern Air Temple...

Aang: You don't understand, Katara. The only way to get to an airbender temple is on a flying bison, and I doubt the Fire Nation has any flying bison. Right, Appa?

Aang of course was incorrect about this Temple, and of course he would be, since he didn't live here.  But, the point is, the Southern Air Temple is inaccessable by anything but flight, so if the Fire Nation was able to get to it, they probably did it by using flight somehow, whether through animal or machine.  That is all...

They didn't have flight, this is the first time any flight travel with machines is possible. You will see further proof of this later on. However they got up to the Temples they didn't do it with Flying machines.

The Problem is I think the Air Temple nomads were taken off guard they had no idea that Sozin was going to declare war on them. I believe they used the day of the Comet to attack the Nomads.
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Fionordequester
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« Reply #69 on: Oct 16, 2010 08:14 pm »

I didn't realize the Mechanist is why people don't like this episode, or that this episode really received negative reviews. To me the Mechanist doesn't see the value of the cultural history of the Temple, to him it's just a large abandon building complex. Honestly I don't think there is anything but the aestic value of the artworks even left there. The books and scrolls have probably long since rotted away. The Air benders are dead and can no longer live there, it's an empty shell and the dead Air Benders would certainly not want to kill the Mechanist and his people.  I'm honestly disturbed that people wanted Aang to kill the poor man who was just trying to protect his son. Also a Parent doing Dark deeds to protect child I think is a Trope or it should be. As there are many examples of this in many stories.

Well, that's what some people said in this thread.  At the very least, some of them wished that Reno was hurt badly.

Add to that that if this temple was lower to ground or left untended for longer, trees and vines would envelope the place. Nature never knows where to stop you are right there.

Another good point.

Also did you notice previous post of "Reno" drawing? His inventions will come back to haunt the Gaang in future episodes. The Air Blimp and that Drawing he's doing will have major future significance. Unfortunately he is not making inferior work and you will see his works come to fruition later on. Though I do think he also tries to make good on what he's done, again you'll see more in the later two seasons.

Oh...well, nobody said he had much common sense (his three missing fingers are a testament to that), but oh well.  I'm sure Aang will prevail!   

I think of many of the FN soilders as "I was just following orders" types. They are not an evil nation, they just have a corrupted leader.

Wasn't that the excuse for most soldiers in evil nations throughout the world?  I still think there's a bit of evil, or at the very least selfishness, in blindly following orders.

Thank you for noticing this, few seem to want to admit that most likely that many FN soldiers died that day and due to the actions of Aang and the others. Not that I think it makes him bad but I don't think many could have possibly survived what happened to those tanks. For some reason Aang doesn't feel any FN soldiers died that day...

Honestly, it makes me wonder why they were willing to let the Emissary go when they were going to do what they did to the Fire Nation soldiers.  Who knows, maybe this was Bryan and Mike's way of "getting stuff past the radar".  They have been pretty edgy before.   

I think this is a sign of Aang's wisdom and someone who is able to come to acceptance quicker then others. He is the type that doesn't want to hold grudges and forgive. He realizes they need a place to live and it's not something personal against the Air Benders. The Hermit crab analogy may not be perfect but it certainly isn't a cop out. The Air Benders ARE gone, would everyone rather there be a FN base there instead?

Hmm...another good point right there.  Whatever Reno did, the Fire Nation surely would've done even worse had he not been there.

It's going to get better is all I will say.

Part of what made that fight so intense was the sheer shock value in what happened.  I mean, one minute, the Gaang is kicking tail, only to have these fricken juggernauts appear out of nowhere and bulldoze through the group.  It was just so stunning to see Aang, who up till now how been utterly humiliating most of his opponents up till now, now rendered completely worthless against these beasts.  This has been the very first time in the cartoon where he literally just could NOT do a blasted thing!

And the tanks just seemed so prepared.  My mouth dropped when I saw Aang dislodge the first tank only for it to actually unleash a second grappling hook and go on like nothing happened.  Again, it was amazing just how helpless Aang was against them.

They didn't have flight, this is the first time any flight travel with machines is possible. You will see further proof of this later on. However they got up to the Temples they didn't do it with Flying machines.

I see.

The problem is I think the Air Temple nomads were taken off guard they had no idea that Sozin was going to declare war on them. I believe they used the day of the Comet to attack the Nomads.

Does the Comet give the soldiers super strength and endurance or something?  Because I always wondered why there were so few Fire Nation casualties in the Southern Air Temple despite them taking on all of these extremely skilled Air Benders.  If that's the case, it's a credit to Gyatso that he was even able to take any of them down at all, let alone the 7+ soldiers he was able to kill.
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SMBH
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« Reply #70 on: Oct 17, 2010 12:54 am »

Iroh's Sumki Horn
Tsungi horn.
 
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The Mechanic
Mechanist.

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Hmm...WAIT A MINUTE!!  SOMETHING JUST OCCURRED TO ME!  I mean, lets think back to Jeong Jeong for a moment.  The guy was a highly talented General in the army right?  But he was a decent man, who finally forsook his ways after the destruction he was causing was starting to get to him right?  I just realized, do you think Jeong Jeong might've been responsible for the destruction of the Airbenders in the Southern Temple?  Do you think THAT might've been the final straw for him, the bloodshed of the peaceful, nonviolent Airbenders and their young students?  And THAT'S why the Temple was left unharmed, because of his reverance for Avatar Roku?  He seems about old enough...
Jeong Jeong is 60 years old (his wanted poster mentions his age). The Air Nomad genocide happened 100 years ago. Jeong Jeong was born forty years after the Air Nomads were exterminated. So no, Jeong Jeong was not responsible for the air temple destruction.

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Fire Nation Emissary
I don't remember if it was mentioned in the episode, but this guy is a War Minister for the Fire Nation. His name is Qin.

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Um, Sokka, I hate to break it to you, but the Fire Nation has already been proven to have to skies as well, LONG before this Episode and it's war balloon ever came.  Again, I refer to Episode 3, in which Aang explains how the Fire Nation couldn't possibly have touched the Southern Air Temple...

Aang: You don't understand, Katara. The only way to get to an airbender temple is on a flying bison, and I doubt the Fire Nation has any flying bison. Right, Appa?

Aang of course was incorrect about this Temple, and of course he would be, since he didn't live here.  But, the point is, the Southern Air Temple is inaccessable by anything but flight, so if the Fire Nation was able to get to it, they probably did it by using flight somehow, whether through animal or machine.  That is all...
It's still possible that the Southern Air Temple has a footpath up the hills like the Northern temple does, but that Aang doesn't know about it. He certainly wouldn't need to know about it because he can get up there on Appa. But even still, remember how in the episode with Avatar Roku, Roku had a dragon? Well, it's possible the Fire Nation used dragons in their military actions a hundred years ago, though this is by no means certain -- we just don't know. There's also other ways that the comet-enhanced firebenders could have gotten up there. The war minister's comment at the end of the episode is very important, because this is indeed the first moment that the Fire Nation has encountered a technology that allows them to get airborne.
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Fionordequester
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« Reply #71 on: Oct 17, 2010 02:47 am »

By the way, is there any other way of PMing people to read these logs?  I find having to remember all of them as somewhat inconvenient.  I usually have to dig through past logs to make sure to account for everyone.
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« Reply #72 on: Oct 17, 2010 02:58 am »

You can send a mass PM.
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« Reply #73 on: Oct 17, 2010 03:08 am »

How do you do that?
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« Reply #74 on: Oct 17, 2010 03:11 pm »


I think of many of the FN soilders as "I was just following orders" types. They are not an evil nation, they just have a corrupted leader.

Wasn't that the excuse for most soldiers in evil nations throughout the world?  I still think there's a bit of evil, or at the very least selfishness, in blindly following orders.

There is also Fear and Ignorance, you can't just blanket them all under the same "They follow the Fire Lord and thus are evil." There are those that tried to defy and were made examples of. Those that saw the examples of that were too afraid to disobey lest they get the same. There is also Ignorance where the soldiers and the like are lied too, you'll see the Fire nation propaganda machine later on.


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The problem is I think the Air Temple nomads were taken off guard they had no idea that Sozin was going to declare war on them. I believe they used the day of the Comet to attack the Nomads.

Does the Comet give the soldiers super strength and endurance or something?  Because I always wondered why there were so few Fire Nation casualties in the Southern Air Temple despite them taking on all of these extremely skilled Air Benders.  If that's the case, it's a credit to Gyatso that he was even able to take any of them down at all, let alone the 7+ soldiers he was able to kill.

It increases their Fire Bending abilities and I think allows them to perform on a level they couldn't before. As pointed out SMBH the Fire Benders can do some things you haven't seen yet. I imagine under the Comet most will be able to do the things needed to get to the Air Benders. Also I am not sure on the timing of events if the Air Benders were aware that the FN had delcared war yet on the EN or if Sozin waited until the comet...

Thinking about there being an unknown footpath reminds me of a quote from Dumbledore "Surprising how shortsighted invisibility makes one." Being so high up and isolated and able to fly to where they wanted to go there would really be no reason for them to see ground ways up to the temples.
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