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Author Topic: Korra and the Avatar State  (Read 30021 times)
Atticus
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« Reply #325 on: Jun 12, 2012 05:49 pm »

Its Avatar tradition that in every season finale (Siege of the North, Crossroads of Destiny, Avatar Aang) the avatar enters the avatar state. But just because they go avatar state doesnt make it a cheap way to go because it doesnt guaruntee you will win! Crossroads of Destiny is proof of that.
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neowind
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« Reply #326 on: Jun 12, 2012 05:50 pm »


For sure it will be a mix of uncontrolled well maybe .since season is short..... but yeah for sure it will be  more of a wild version. I bet during season 2. will be one of the plots, where she is learning to understand it more

I also . understand people like she needs learn it..the problem is..people..i have to say that this is short show..so the it really will have to set up..that she can control it very quickly. because of the time slot.. it hinted how she understand the power of bending already just lack spirit . The avatar state is power/spirit.and now.already hinting how she coming  into spirit.side.so if she turns into it.. she will pretty much have a understanding and control. if i am making since,the show only 13 episode as well the next season  i bet.
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Pretty_Angel
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« Reply #327 on: Jun 13, 2012 05:34 am »

The chakra theory still seems to be valid - at least on a thematic level. To sum up the episodes:

Ep. 4 - Earth Chakra - deals with survival, blocked by fear
Korra confronting Amon and her fear

Ep. 5 - Water Chakra - deals with pleasure, blocked by guilt
the whole dating disaster

Ep. 6 - Fire Chakra - deals with willpower, blocked by shame
Korra and Lin being unable to defend the arena when Amon invades, the match also fits as a battle between the willpower of Korra's team vs. the shameful cheating tactics of Thano's team

Ep. 7 - Air Chakra - deals with love, blocked by grief
Hiroshi's misguided grief for his dead wife, Asami's love for her father, to some extend even the issues between Mako and Korra

Ep. 8 - Sound Chakra - deals with truth, blocked by lies
Tarrlok spreading lies about equalist activity, finally the truth about him being a bloodbender is revealed

Ep. 9 - Light Chakra - deals with insight, blocked by illusion
Korra's getting some insight from Aang's visions and that Tarrlok's "saviour of the city" persona is just an illusion to gain control over the city

This leaves us with:
Ep. 10 - Thought Chakra - deals with pure cosmic energy, blocked by earthly attachments
Korra overcoming her spiritual block? Maybe?

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kitsuneopal
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« Reply #328 on: Jun 13, 2012 06:00 pm »

Quote
This leaves us with:
Ep. 10 - Thought Chakra - deals with pure cosmic energy, blocked by earthly attachments
Korra overcoming her spiritual block? Maybe?

Yea but what earthly attachments does Korra have?? Mako? Not really IMO, since she has moved aside for Asami/Mako. That only really leaves Naga and her bending/power that she clings to.
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mattacular2001
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« Reply #329 on: Jun 13, 2012 06:14 pm »

Quote
This leaves us with:
Ep. 10 - Thought Chakra - deals with pure cosmic energy, blocked by earthly attachments
Korra overcoming her spiritual block? Maybe?

Yea but what earthly attachments does Korra have?? Mako? Not really IMO, since she has moved aside for Asami/Mako. That only really leaves Naga and her bending/power that she clings to.

Her parents maybe.
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kitsuneopal
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« Reply #330 on: Jun 13, 2012 06:15 pm »

Quote
This leaves us with:
Ep. 10 - Thought Chakra - deals with pure cosmic energy, blocked by earthly attachments
Korra overcoming her spiritual block? Maybe?

Yea but what earthly attachments does Korra have?? Mako? Not really IMO, since she has moved aside for Asami/Mako. That only really leaves Naga and her bending/power that she clings to.

Her parents maybe.

Maybe. But she was more than willing to leave them behind and go to Republic City.
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mattacular2001
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« Reply #331 on: Jun 13, 2012 06:21 pm »

Quote
This leaves us with:
Ep. 10 - Thought Chakra - deals with pure cosmic energy, blocked by earthly attachments
Korra overcoming her spiritual block? Maybe?

Yea but what earthly attachments does Korra have?? Mako? Not really IMO, since she has moved aside for Asami/Mako. That only really leaves Naga and her bending/power that she clings to.

Her parents maybe.

Maybe. But she was more than willing to leave them behind and go to Republic City.

Because of her duty as the avatar. That binds her to the earth, too.
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kitsuneopal
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« Reply #332 on: Jun 13, 2012 06:32 pm »

Quote
This leaves us with:
Ep. 10 - Thought Chakra - deals with pure cosmic energy, blocked by earthly attachments
Korra overcoming her spiritual block? Maybe?

Yea but what earthly attachments does Korra have?? Mako? Not really IMO, since she has moved aside for Asami/Mako. That only really leaves Naga and her bending/power that she clings to.

Her parents maybe.

Maybe. But she was more than willing to leave them behind and go to Republic City.

Because of her duty as the avatar. That binds her to the earth, too.

You got a interesting point. Smiley But since they were never in the show save for the first ep. I don't think they are a factor. 
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mattacular2001
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« Reply #333 on: Jun 13, 2012 06:38 pm »

Quote
This leaves us with:
Ep. 10 - Thought Chakra - deals with pure cosmic energy, blocked by earthly attachments
Korra overcoming her spiritual block? Maybe?

Yea but what earthly attachments does Korra have?? Mako? Not really IMO, since she has moved aside for Asami/Mako. That only really leaves Naga and her bending/power that she clings to.

Her parents maybe.

Maybe. But she was more than willing to leave them behind and go to Republic City.

Because of her duty as the avatar. That binds her to the earth, too.

You got a interesting point. Smiley But since they were never in the show save for the first ep. I don't think they are a factor. 

I'm just devil's advocate here haha.
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Xian
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« Reply #334 on: Jun 15, 2012 08:58 pm »

The writers have carefully crafted a believable Avatar without easy access to the Avatar State.  Given it's role in the previous series, I think that's something they'll want to preserve, lest fall into many of the same tropes of ATLA's Avatar State LOK's Book 2.

I think it is possible that Korra will be able to overcome the obstacles of Season 1 without accessing the Avatar State.  A hard fought and meaningful victory... but made bittersweet as it is not won without cost... a cost potentially avoided if Korra had achieved the Avatar State.  This would provide the impetus for spiritual exploration that many presume to be a theme of Book 2 WITHOUT kneecapping your lead by taking away: a) Her title characteristic, being able to bend multiple elements; and b) Your show's most outstanding feature, bending, period.

The pursuit of the State still allows for a journey and spiritual exploration, but it also allows for Korra to remain a multi-element bending badass who faces a limitation that doesn't bail her out of every danger or conflict.
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ThunderLips
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« Reply #335 on: Jun 15, 2012 09:21 pm »

The writers have carefully crafted a believable Avatar without easy access to the Avatar State.  Given it's role in the previous series, I think that's something they'll want to preserve, lest fall into many of the same tropes of ATLA's Avatar State LOK's Book 2.

I think it is possible that Korra will be able to overcome the obstacles of Season 1 without accessing the Avatar State.  A hard fought and meaningful victory... but made bittersweet as it is not won without cost... a cost potentially avoided if Korra had achieved the Avatar State.  This would provide the impetus for spiritual exploration that many presume to be a theme of Book 2 WITHOUT kneecapping your lead by taking away: a) Her title characteristic, being able to bend multiple elements; and b) Your show's most outstanding feature, bending, period.

The pursuit of the State still allows for a journey and spiritual exploration, but it also allows for Korra to remain a multi-element bending badass who faces a limitation that doesn't bail her out of every danger or conflict.

I would agree that there could be a riveting story surrounding Korra seeking her spiritual connection with bending powers fully intact.  I for one hope that she loses her bending, and must thereby embark on a deeper spiritual journey, perhaps than any other Avatar.
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Xian
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« Reply #336 on: Jun 15, 2012 09:35 pm »

^ I doubt Nickelodeon is going to knee-cap their title character that way.  You'd have a season with no multi-element bender.  One less bender period.  And an Avatar-in-name-only.  That's paramount to putting Batman in a wheelchair for an all-ages cartoon season just for the "deeper spiritual journey" he has to take before, you know, being Batman (and all that entails- swinging from grapple lines, fighting criminals, and other able-bodied activities).  Even the more "mature" comic books could not tell the broken Bat story with conviction without replacing Bruce with a Batman who could do all those things.  So unless the goal is to temporarily marginalize Korra....

Whatever the alleged potential of a benderless Avatar story, it comes at the expense of the essential draw of the series to the audience at large.
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gonewiththewind17
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« Reply #337 on: Jun 15, 2012 10:33 pm »

^ I doubt Nickelodeon is going to knee-cap their title character that way.  You'd have a season with no multi-element bender.  One less bender period.  And an Avatar-in-name-only.  That's paramount to putting Batman in a wheelchair for an all-ages cartoon season just for the "deeper spiritual journey" he has to take before, you know, being Batman (and all that entails- swinging from grapple lines, fighting criminals, and other able-bodied activities).  Even the more "mature" comic books could not tell the broken Bat story with conviction without replacing Bruce with a Batman who could do all those things.  So unless the goal is to temporarily marginalize Korra....

Whatever the alleged potential of a benderless Avatar story, it comes at the expense of the essential draw of the series to the audience at large.

This is unfortunately true. A lot of Nick's commercials, especially the 'Path to Korra' ones always mentioned that there was a boy named Aang who could manipulate all 4 elements etc. etc.

The fighting is definitely a big draw for many viewers, and I doubt that all the little kids will stay interested without the epic bending battles.
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ThunderLips
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« Reply #338 on: Jun 16, 2012 08:22 am »

^ I doubt Nickelodeon is going to knee-cap their title character that way.  You'd have a season with no multi-element bender.  One less bender period.  And an Avatar-in-name-only.  That's paramount to putting Batman in a wheelchair for an all-ages cartoon season just for the "deeper spiritual journey" he has to take before, you know, being Batman (and all that entails- swinging from grapple lines, fighting criminals, and other able-bodied activities).  Even the more "mature" comic books could not tell the broken Bat story with conviction without replacing Bruce with a Batman who could do all those things.  So unless the goal is to temporarily marginalize Korra....

Whatever the alleged potential of a benderless Avatar story, it comes at the expense of the essential draw of the series to the audience at large.

As much as I believe that there is significant portion of the audience that wants to see bending battles extraordinaire, I also think that a good story that is well crafted will easily keep the audience's attention.  It wouldn't have to last for an entire season.  Perhaps maybe only a handful of episodes, but having that dynamic in the story would give Korra some serious clout.  She loses her bending and has to go get it back?  Kinda makes her one of the best Avatar's ever, maybe solidifying this legendary status that I'm wondering about.  In any case, most Avatar fans are already invested in the show and the characters.  They'll want to see how it shakes out.  My kids are 9 and 8 and they think it would be awesome.
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mattacular2001
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« Reply #339 on: Jun 16, 2012 08:25 am »

^ I doubt Nickelodeon is going to knee-cap their title character that way.  You'd have a season with no multi-element bender.  One less bender period.  And an Avatar-in-name-only.  That's paramount to putting Batman in a wheelchair for an all-ages cartoon season just for the "deeper spiritual journey" he has to take before, you know, being Batman (and all that entails- swinging from grapple lines, fighting criminals, and other able-bodied activities).  Even the more "mature" comic books could not tell the broken Bat story with conviction without replacing Bruce with a Batman who could do all those things.  So unless the goal is to temporarily marginalize Korra....

Whatever the alleged potential of a benderless Avatar story, it comes at the expense of the essential draw of the series to the audience at large.

As much as I believe that there is significant portion of the audience that wants to see bending battles extraordinaire, I also think that a good story that is well crafted will easily keep the audience's attention.  It wouldn't have to last for an entire season.  Perhaps maybe only a handful of episodes, but having that dynamic in the story would give Korra some serious clout.  She loses her bending and has to go get it back?  Kinda makes her one of the best Avatar's ever, maybe solidifying this legendary status that I'm wondering about.  In any case, most Avatar fans are already invested in the show and the characters.  They'll want to see how it shakes out.  My kids are 9 and 8 and they think it would be awesome.

But not in a 14 episode series. Can't waste it on that.
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Xian
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« Reply #340 on: Jun 16, 2012 09:04 am »

having that dynamic in the story would give Korra some serious clout.  She loses her bending and has to go get it back?  Kinda makes her one of the best Avatar's ever...
Eh, Aang already gave us that journey by having to find masters and learn all four elements, essentially "getting his bending back" albeit back from previous lives.  And likely any such journey would also have a spiritual component ("deeply spiritual" as you say) which Aang also explored in his much more lengthy series.

Aang: Yeah, that might be because I don't know anything at all about the Spirit World. It's not like there's someone to teach me this stuff!

Aang had to learn all that stuff.  Do we really need to watch Korra essentially repeat Aang's steps?  It seems like the creators explicitly went out of their way to make a different Avatar, one that had the gifts of three elements at a young age (didn't have to go a "find your bending" quest like Aang), who is older and more aggressive than Aang, and less connected with the spiritual (meaning less- not necessarily no- Deus Ex Machina moments with the Avatar State or sudden spiritual revelations that explain everything).  I don't think they want to ruin that dynamic by making Korra copy Aang's adventures even in spirit if not expressly the same content.
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Sifu Hothead
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« Reply #341 on: Jun 16, 2012 09:38 am »

Its Avatar tradition that in every season finale (Siege of the North, Crossroads of Destiny, Avatar Aang) the avatar enters the avatar state. But just because they go avatar state doesnt make it a cheap way to go because it doesnt guaruntee you will win! Crossroads of Destiny is proof of that.
That might be true, but there were many other times when Aang went into the AS and it wasn't a season finale. If the AS was just a finale exclusive thing it would cheapen the State, it's only purpose would be to make the avatar more powerful just to make his/her victories greater or defeats more dramatic.My favorite AS scene in ATLA was when Aang saw Gyatso's remains in ep. 3, because it showed how linked the State is with the avatar's emotions and wasn't just some source of brute force.
The chakra theory still seems to be valid - at least on a thematic level. To sum up the episodes:
Ep. 10 - Thought Chakra - deals with pure cosmic energy, blocked by earthly attachments
Korra overcoming her spiritual block? Maybe?
 
 The reasons why Korra should/could be going into the AS in this episode are pretty clear to me (and I know some of this should be going in the speculation board) First of all, if the equalists are going to attack the city and the island it's obvious the people she cares about are going to be in greater danger than before, I think I finally understand why Korra didn't go into the avatar state in episode 4, it was fear that held her back it's that simple and if there's one thing I know is that fear is a huge inhibitor and taking a look back at ep. 9 you can clearly see that Korra is still terrified of Amon, but since her friends, her family is going to be under a direct threat from Amon her love for them will be greater than her fear and she will glow it up!    
 Second, and I know people are gonna hate on me for the shippiness, Asami alredy knows about Makorra, the only thing she needs to see to be completely sure of Mako's feelings is him comforting Korra out of the AS as he the most likely of all characters to get the job done, just saying.
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ThunderLips
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« Reply #342 on: Jun 16, 2012 05:37 pm »

having that dynamic in the story would give Korra some serious clout.  She loses her bending and has to go get it back?  Kinda makes her one of the best Avatar's ever...
Eh, Aang already gave us that journey by having to find masters and learn all four elements, essentially "getting his bending back" albeit back from previous lives.  And likely any such journey would also have a spiritual component ("deeply spiritual" as you say) which Aang also explored in his much more lengthy series.

Aang: Yeah, that might be because I don't know anything at all about the Spirit World. It's not like there's someone to teach me this stuff!

Aang had to learn all that stuff.  Do we really need to watch Korra essentially repeat Aang's steps?  It seems like the creators explicitly went out of their way to make a different Avatar, one that had the gifts of three elements at a young age (didn't have to go a "find your bending" quest like Aang), who is older and more aggressive than Aang, and less connected with the spiritual (meaning less- not necessarily no- Deus Ex Machina moments with the Avatar State or sudden spiritual revelations that explain everything).  I don't think they want to ruin that dynamic by making Korra copy Aang's adventures even in spirit if not expressly the same content.


Why would Korra be automatically retracing the same steps as Aang?  She is less spiritually inclined than Aang, therefore it stands to reason that her journey into spiritual understanding would be far more arduous and involve much more Spirit World involvement than we received in ATLA.  The writers (if they so desired) can truly flesh out what is still shrouded in mystery to a certain degree:  the inner workings of the Spirit World and all of its relationships to the Physical World.

I personally feel there tons of things yet to explore in Avatarverse that could easily be expanded within Korra's spiritual quest towards complete understanding.   I envisioned Korra perhaps being led by the original Avatar in this scenario, probably the Avatar that had the most connection to the Spirit World. 

Now of course they could satisfactorily tie up Season One in a nice neat bow, then set up Korra with a perfectly legitimate quest in Season Two without taking her bending, and I'm quite sure all the fans would enjoy the ride.  But as they have established this particular monster, this great evil of bending-loss it just seems perfunctory to wash it away with a defeated Amon, and all's well that ends well (or maybe not "all is well" but nevertheless....victory, happy ending, montage, roll credits).  I believe the best stories are not just when the hero is brought to his limit, but actually has to crawl from the depths of hell to achieve his/her goals.  She must slay the beast to become the legend.  And if the best she can do is use the Avatar State, then she certainly hasn't done much more than Aang. 

IMO (and I have been wrong in the past) a Korra story worthy of legendary status would mean she has conquered the true monster, which is bending-loss, and doing so in the most dramatic way possible:  losing her own bending, gaining it back, learning the secrets of bending restoration, defeating the enemy, and making the world whole again.
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Xian
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« Reply #343 on: Jun 16, 2012 05:44 pm »

I'm just going to repeat myself:

"I don't think they want to ruin that dynamic by making Korra copy Aang's adventures even in spirit if not expressly the same content."

You might come up with different mechanics but the spirit is still the same... reclaim your lost bending (for Aang, his previous lives), learn more about spirits (his journey).

They practically purpose built Korra to avoid these issues.  At a minimum, Korra would have to repeat Aang's initial spirit-world stuff since she's already adverse to it and starting from scratch.  Shorter seasons imply less retreads not more.
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ThunderLips
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« Reply #344 on: Jun 16, 2012 06:37 pm »

I'm just going to repeat myself:

"I don't think they want to ruin that dynamic by making Korra copy Aang's adventures even in spirit if not expressly the same content."

You might come up with different mechanics but the spirit is still the same... reclaim your lost bending (for Aang, his previous lives), learn more about spirits (his journey).

They practically purpose built Korra to avoid these issues.  At a minimum, Korra would have to repeat Aang's initial spirit-world stuff since she's already adverse to it and starting from scratch.  Shorter seasons imply less retreads not more.

I don't believe that Korra losing her bending and going on the journey I described means that she is mirroring Aang's.  In as far as you describe Aang's journey, it's the same as ALL the Avatar's: to learn the true nature and spirit of bending and master them, become the hero and hope for the world, and to bridge the Physical World and the Spirit World.  The mechanics as you describe them I guess is the actual story, what's going on, and who's doing what and why.  And ultimately it is the story, and its delivery and execution, that makes people enjoy the show.

IMO the "mechanics" would be the requirements you're going to see from pretty much every rendition of every Avatar:  master four elements/Avatar State/be a hero and hope for all/spirit world liaison.  It is when the Avatar fails to perform in one, some or all of these basic Avatar-requirements that we even have a story.  And because the Avatar is a fallible human being, we get very interesting and compelling drama as a result.

And you said the writers built Korra to avoid these issues (spiritual struggles and bending loss), yet Korra is clearly going through them anyway.  As Aang struggled with Firebending, Korra struggles with Airbending (even more so as Aang was able to produce fire, just not effectively or controlled.  Korra can't produce a puff of air).   And Aang clearly did not struggle with spirituality as Korra does.  The writers have expressly set up that obstacle for Korra to overcome, and seemed to go out of their way to make it pretty obvious. So the statement that Korra was built to avoid such issues doesn't seem to fly with the story that is playing out on my television every Saturday.

But I understand your perspective: if Korra loses her bending and is then compelled to embark on a spiritual journey/bending reclamation project, we are simply watching ATLA Redux.  You are entitled to your opinions.
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Xian
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« Reply #345 on: Jun 16, 2012 07:04 pm »

I see it as: Is she going to have to meet the Guru or a Guru analog?  Is she going to go into a spooky spirit world and encounter Koh or something as frightening?  Are we going to get spirit world cosmology, chi, or chakra lectures? Etc.  It almost necessitates retreading.

I agree that watching every Avatar reclaim their bending would be a retread, that's why Korra got to skip three elements (Aang only got to skip one) in-story... and I wouldn't want to watch other future Avatars gather their elements again either (in abbreviated seasons).  Whatever troubles Aang had with fire were more heavily tied to issues of aggression-based firebending versus his pacifist stance... Korra didn't have that issue, her training "clicked" in the Pro-Bending Arena, she's not retreading Aang's elemental difficulty since it isn't based on a philosophical outlook (fire as life vs. fire as attack), it's tied to the spiritual handicap the writers built into her character to avoid many of the tropes Aang's character developed.

I think you're confused what issues I'm saying are being avoided.  Of course, flaws are meant to be overcome.  That's the character arc.  The issues I'm referring to is all the unpacking, retreads, and deus ex machinas built into a spiritually attuned Avatar.  You have to write around the Avatar State always saving your character, or strong emotions which might trigger it, or have a perpetual handler to calm the State down... followed by a control arc to reign it in.  Likewise you have to write around Aang not providing explicit instruction and information like Roku popped in to do.  And so on and so forth.  By dulling Korra's spiritual sense the story is streamlined without these issues or tropes.  Those are the issues being avoided and those DO play out on your screen every Saturday.

Korra falling from a great height has tension and demands Lin's rescue at the expense of her pursuit because the dispensed with the Avatar State.
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ThunderLips
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« Reply #346 on: Jun 16, 2012 07:48 pm »

I see it as: Is she going to have to meet the Guru or a Guru analog?  Is she going to go into a spooky spirit world and encounter Koh or something as frightening?  Are we going to get spirit world cosmology, chi, or chakra lectures? Etc.  It almost necessitates retreading.

I agree that watching every Avatar reclaim their bending would be a retread, that's why Korra got to skip three elements (Aang only got to skip one) in-story... and I wouldn't want to watch other future Avatars gather their elements again either (in abbreviated seasons).  Whatever troubles Aang had with fire were more heavily tied to issues of aggression-based firebending versus his pacifist stance... Korra didn't have that issue, her training "clicked" in the Pro-Bending Arena, she's not retreading Aang's elemental difficulty since it isn't based on a philosophical outlook (fire as life vs. fire as attack), it's tied to the spiritual handicap the writers built into her character to avoid many of the tropes Aang's character developed.

I think you're confused what issues I'm saying are being avoided.  Of course, flaws are meant to be overcome.  That's the character arc.  The issues I'm referring to is all the unpacking, retreads, and deus ex machinas built into a spiritually attuned Avatar.  You have to write around the Avatar State always saving your character, or strong emotions which might trigger it, or have a perpetual handler to calm the State down... followed by a control arc to reign it in.  Likewise you have to write around Aang not providing explicit instruction and information like Roku popped in to do.  And so on and so forth.  By dulling Korra's spiritual sense the story is streamlined without these issues or tropes.  Those are the issues being avoided and those DO play out on your screen every Saturday.

Korra falling from a great height has tension and demands Lin's rescue at the expense of her pursuit because the dispensed with the Avatar State.

No question.  The limitations and obstacles that they have fit Korra with have created a much different set of circumstances for her to overcome versus the previous Avatar.  But that is precisely why it doesn't make sense that an bending-less Korra gaining her bending back is a bad thing, and in fact might be the most compelling path in which to take the character down.  Maybe that's the difference.  I don't believe there is a "one size fits all" spiritual journey.  It doesn't even work like that in real life, much less in fantasy cartoon worlds.  There are a variety of different paths that people walk along their journey to enlightenment and/or peace.  Aang was a pacifist.  Korra is more militant.  So therefore I believe Aang's spiritual walk coincided with his identity (contemplating with spirits, chi and chakra lessons, etc), and I think Korra's would coincide with hers.  Which means I am looking for an action packed spiritual quest, not just classroom stuff.

And, as you stated very succinctly, though they have set up these limitations for Korra so that she would be forced to do something differently than Aang, nevertheless as they have established them as obstacles, and therefore they must overcome them at some point.  We won't have an Avatar that can't achieve Avatar State when needed, it simply will not do.  So the question becomes, are these just stepping stones in her path, to be washed over with a quick montage or legitimate obstacles to conquer and defeat?  And if they are, what is the most emotionally satisfying story in which to accomplish victory?

You know what it is?  It's the word "LEGEND" in the title of the show.

I know I need to wait until the end of the season of course, but my hopes are not high that I will see anything "legendary".  And I'm looking for something to live up to that word.  It's thrown around casually far too often in the fantasy genre.  I'm looking for something epic, something beyond mere heroics, and something that no Avatar has done.
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ViridianIV
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« Reply #347 on: Jun 17, 2012 03:23 pm »

I see it as: Is she going to have to meet the Guru or a Guru analog?  Is she going to go into a spooky spirit world and encounter Koh or something as frightening?  Are we going to get spirit world cosmology, chi, or chakra lectures? Etc.  It almost necessitates retreading.

I agree that watching every Avatar reclaim their bending would be a retread, that's why Korra got to skip three elements (Aang only got to skip one) in-story... and I wouldn't want to watch other future Avatars gather their elements again either (in abbreviated seasons).  Whatever troubles Aang had with fire were more heavily tied to issues of aggression-based firebending versus his pacifist stance... Korra didn't have that issue, her training "clicked" in the Pro-Bending Arena, she's not retreading Aang's elemental difficulty since it isn't based on a philosophical outlook (fire as life vs. fire as attack), it's tied to the spiritual handicap the writers built into her character to avoid many of the tropes Aang's character developed.

I think you're confused what issues I'm saying are being avoided.  Of course, flaws are meant to be overcome.  That's the character arc.  The issues I'm referring to is all the unpacking, retreads, and deus ex machinas built into a spiritually attuned Avatar.  You have to write around the Avatar State always saving your character, or strong emotions which might trigger it, or have a perpetual handler to calm the State down... followed by a control arc to reign it in.  Likewise you have to write around Aang not providing explicit instruction and information like Roku popped in to do.  And so on and so forth.  By dulling Korra's spiritual sense the story is streamlined without these issues or tropes.  Those are the issues being avoided and those DO play out on your screen every Saturday.

Korra falling from a great height has tension and demands Lin's rescue at the expense of her pursuit because the dispensed with the Avatar State.

No question.  The limitations and obstacles that they have fit Korra with have created a much different set of circumstances for her to overcome versus the previous Avatar.  But that is precisely why it doesn't make sense that an bending-less Korra gaining her bending back is a bad thing, and in fact might be the most compelling path in which to take the character down.  Maybe that's the difference.  I don't believe there is a "one size fits all" spiritual journey.  It doesn't even work like that in real life, much less in fantasy cartoon worlds.  There are a variety of different paths that people walk along their journey to enlightenment and/or peace.  Aang was a pacifist.  Korra is more militant.  So therefore I believe Aang's spiritual walk coincided with his identity (contemplating with spirits, chi and chakra lessons, etc), and I think Korra's would coincide with hers.  Which means I am looking for an action packed spiritual quest, not just classroom stuff.

And, as you stated very succinctly, though they have set up these limitations for Korra so that she would be forced to do something differently than Aang, nevertheless as they have established them as obstacles, and therefore they must overcome them at some point.  We won't have an Avatar that can't achieve Avatar State when needed, it simply will not do.  So the question becomes, are these just stepping stones in her path, to be washed over with a quick montage or legitimate obstacles to conquer and defeat?  And if they are, what is the most emotionally satisfying story in which to accomplish victory?

You know what it is?  It's the word "LEGEND" in the title of the show.

I know I need to wait until the end of the season of course, but my hopes are not high that I will see anything "legendary".  And I'm looking for something to live up to that word.  It's thrown around casually far too often in the fantasy genre.  I'm looking for something epic, something beyond mere heroics, and something that no Avatar has done.

Try to keep in mind there's going to be at least two seasons more than likely at least 2 (Since I feel Nick will order at least one more in my heartest of hearts)  So It could well be the real 'legend' stuff doesn't get on till then.

And if I may say... Aang became legendary for learning to take people's bending away....(well and all that other stuff) I might propose Korra become a legend for learning to give it back Tongue
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« Reply #348 on: Jun 17, 2012 04:53 pm »

It's the word "LEGEND" in the title of the show.
I wouldn't get too hung up on title accuracy... Aang wasn't the titular last air bender ever, he was the last air bender for a while.  The traditional definition of legend has less to do with scope and more to do with accuracy... something is legend not because it is singular or incredible, necessarily, but that the essential accuracy of the story in unverified / unauthenticated... thus expressions like "legend has it... this sandwich was named after Elvis."

What I'm getting at is an embedded aspect of falsity may be more closely tied to the word "legend" than your grand expectations.  And given the amount of potentially sensitive information that may soon cross the Avatar's path, there may be good reason to seal or mask the truth within legend rather than truthful reporting.  Whatever the skeletons in the closet are, whatever Amon's secrets, or however Amon performs his technique... these may be things intentionally couched in legend to prevent the public at large from learning potentially harmful truths.

A more straight forwards narrative for Pearl Harbor where it is a complete surprise attack, for example, provides a history easier to swallow.  "The Legend of Korra" may simply be how the Avatar suddenly rose up to take down the evil that was Amon, without all the gory details which might compromise someone's legacy, the security of the world, the narrative of the victors, or what not.

----

Out of curiosity, have the words "Avatar State" ever been uttered in Legend of Korra yet?

Of course, we've seen Aang do it within the flashbacks, but is that sufficient telegraphing to new viewers who have never seen the prior show before to understand or expect Korra to do the same?  Moreover, if Korra suddenly flew into an uncontrollable Avatar State without it having been explained prior in the context of the show, would Aang's flashback sequence really be enough to explain why Korra was flipping out when Aang didn't?  I'm not saying they couldn't throw us an expositional bone of dialog to cover it while she went into it, but all else being equal, you wouldn't want your finale to hinge on something not clear to a new audience, making it a little less likely Korra will go into it.
« Last Edit: Jun 17, 2012 05:02 pm by Xian » Logged
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« Reply #349 on: Jun 17, 2012 08:57 pm »


Out of curiosity, have the words "Avatar State" ever been uttered in Legend of Korra yet?

Of course, we've seen Aang do it within the flashbacks, but is that sufficient telegraphing to new viewers who have never seen the prior show before to understand or expect Korra to do the same?  Moreover, if Korra suddenly flew into an uncontrollable Avatar State without it having been explained prior in the context of the show, would Aang's flashback sequence really be enough to explain why Korra was flipping out when Aang didn't?  I'm not saying they couldn't throw us an expositional bone of dialog to cover it while she went into it, but all else being equal, you wouldn't want your finale to hinge on something not clear to a new audience, making it a little less likely Korra will go into it.
THANK YOU!!! I've been desperately waiting the last few episodes for the avatar state precisely because of this, given how dense of a subject the AS is you'd think Bryke would bother to dedicate a little more time to it before the final, but this is me just me getting all whinny, anyways everybody seems to suspect that the scene in the final trailer where Amon is taking Korra's bending is going to be part of the whole final battle of this season and when Korra finally   glows it up, this seems kinda suspicious to me wouldn't they keep the most important scenes hidden from us (you know, for suspence and all that)  I think this is a steak out, maybe a really really really close call on Korra's behalf, this scene could be part of episode 11 that way if it is her first time entering the AS it isn't some final deus ex machina thing, but rather a way of giving her some last minute development...hopefully?       
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