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Author Topic: A series in which the Avatar is the antagonist. Thoughts?  (Read 31520 times)
Xzerobladex
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« Reply #50 on: Aug 14, 2006 02:25 am »

I believe the Avatar could never be evil. Assuming the show is continuing on an avatar legacy, the New avatar has a guide, Aang's being Avatar Roku. This guide is "good" and supplies the new avatar with his/her destiny. Even if the avatar was raised like Azula, there would be the everpowerful spirit guide there to fix/change things. If aang can be possessed by Roku, such as in the Soultice episode, I'm sure Roku could also take shape to stop aang from doing something bad/evil.

I agree for the most part, but who knows, maybe there wasn't that old wise man in a cloak ready to guide the young, brash hero (aka no previous avatar spirit to guide the new, current avatar).  Like, what did the first avatar do?  Maybe he was what most considered to be "evil" since he might not have had a guide....but then that wouldn't make much since, because if he didn't have a guide how did he even know he was an avatar?  Arg this is getting too hard to explain so I'll just shut up about this right now....
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Sniph
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« Reply #51 on: Aug 14, 2006 02:29 am »

The first avatar I think was probably a wise travaler. Mastering the bending arts as he journied his way through the many nations. He then somehow became famous/a hero and thus the legacy was born. Simple Theory.
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Xzerobladex
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« Reply #52 on: Aug 14, 2006 02:32 am »

Eh a little simple and it lets the avatar get off the hook a little too easy too.  Something more complex would be needed if the writers actually wanted to tell the first avatar's story in an interesting way. 
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yasquin264
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« Reply #53 on: Aug 21, 2007 04:25 pm »

I think he hasn't understand the avatar state ,neither us.........so we know that his emotions are part of the avatar state and it's simple he gets angry and he can't control himself the times we have seen him on avatar state when he woke up ,in the fire nation bla...bla bla
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Azulaang
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« Reply #54 on: Dec 07, 2007 03:16 am »

Do you think there could ever be a corrupted Avatar? One that would promote war and violence, etc.?

All it takes to corrupt someone is to corrupt the environment in which the person grows up. So if the Avatar had been born into the Fire Nation while Sozin was Fire Lord, Sozin could have passed down his evil ways to the Avatar. Assuming the Fire Lord also had the Fire Sages on a leash, they could've then taught the Avatar how to master the Avatar state. Sozin, with his Avatar-state-equipped Avatar, could then take over the world, without having to use the comet's power.
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Ehecatzin
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« Reply #55 on: Dec 07, 2007 03:19 am »

Anti avatar? I dont think so, remember that the avatar is also the embodimient of all past avatars, a past life would surelly find a way to take the avatar into the right path if lost, kinda like Roku to Aang.

the avatar is supposed to be the ultimate peacemaker, mankind is the one promoting war and violence.
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bumi3
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« Reply #56 on: Dec 07, 2007 03:25 am »

Well the avatar during Sozin's time was Roku and Roku would have wanted to be known as a traitor to his nation instead of following a corrupt government. But there is a possibly of a future evil avatar, as a matter of fact a lot of people over at Distant Horizon likes the idea. He would just have to ignore what his past lives said. The Avatar would have to be corrupted in a similar way that Anakin Skywalker was in Star Wars I think.
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2nd ta last airbender
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« Reply #57 on: Dec 07, 2007 03:27 am »

If the avatar had of been born into the Sozin fire naton he wouldn't have known for 1. Plus the sages didn't turn untill Aang never showed up. If Aang would have made it to the fire nation the sages would have protected Aang
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Ehecatzin
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« Reply #58 on: Dec 07, 2007 03:32 am »

the thing wth a corrupt avatar is that he wouldnt be able to control the avatar state, he would have to unlock all the chakras, and well being corrupt selfish and evil isnt going to help in that regard.
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bumi3
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« Reply #59 on: Dec 07, 2007 03:33 am »

Well an avatar in Sozin's time shouldn't really be an issue because it never happened due to the fact the avatar was his friend. What were should be afraid of is an avatar after Aang who is born into the Fire Nation under another evil dictator. It would be interesting to see Zuko try to not become like his father or great grandfather, but in the end does somethings he will not be proud of. Have Zuko live for as long as Sozin did, how long did he live for, 100 and something years?

the thing wth a corrupt avatar is that he wouldnt be able to control the avatar state, he would have to unlock all the chakras, and well being corrupt selfish and evil isnt going to help in that regard.

Well he may have to unlock them when he/she is young. Since most kids are good, something may happen to where the Fire Sages will have to reveal to him he is the Avatar earlier and then he will make a wrong deasion.
« Last Edit: Dec 07, 2007 03:40 am by bumi3 » Logged
PeeTearGriffen
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« Reply #60 on: Dec 07, 2007 03:38 am »

(>")>Well let's think about this. Even though the avatar is the embodiment of the four elements, it is still harbored within a HUMAN shell. Last time I checked Humans had the power to choose good or evil and to let outside forces influence that decision. I would think so, though an "anti avatar" does not fit this current story of Aang. I won't be surprised if in future avatar stories, this is shown to us.  <("<)
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Azulaang
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« Reply #61 on: Dec 07, 2007 03:47 am »

future Avatar story:

The anti-Avatar decides he wants to rule the world. He has 4 children and it's up to the children to take down their father. Each child is kidnapped at birth and sent to the 4 different nations. Each child masters one of the 4 elements. Together, they face their father.

(oops, it sounds a little like Star Wars)
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bumi3
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« Reply #62 on: Dec 07, 2007 04:09 am »

Well what in Avatar doesn't sound like Star Wars? Grin Mike and Bryan are probably Star Wars and Wrestling fans. Because if you haven't notice, there are some taunts the characters does. Toph did Cena's You Can't See Me taunt and Katara when sweat bending did that Booby Assley (Bobby Lashley) taunt with her arms.
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Yougo
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« Reply #63 on: Dec 07, 2007 04:53 am »

Last time I checked Humans had the power to choose good or evil and to let outside forces influence that decision.
wouldn't it be nice if everything was neatly devided in "good" and "evil"
It's all point of view. what is good for you, might not work for someone else.
In Sozin's case, he truely believed he was doing the world a favor when he started the war. as twisted as it may seem, he did state he wanted to share the FN's prosperity with the whole world. such a nice guy. to the FN nationalists, the Avatar allready IS evil.

in our own history, many wars came to be because certain people had their own vision of wat a "good world" would look like.
even today there are nations who are willing to force their goodness down your throats.

the task of the avatar is not to tell you wat is good or evil, his task is to keep balance.

I also have questionmarks with the FN depicted as Evil, and the association of fire with it. as all elements must be in balance, and none is superior to any other, they just are.
Cultural, religious, political, or even personal motivation is whats defining what we do with them.

If you decide to do something, that would disturb the balance, you rub the Avatar the wong way, and the Avatar will react as he sees fit best to uphold the balance.

Indeed, in the end, even the avatar is just a human being, and can make wrong or tainted descisions, even go for personal gain.
someone said chakra's would get terribly blocked. I agree. no Chakra, no Cosmic Energy, No Avatar State, but still a very powerful, multibending force to reckon with.
 in that case I do believe the Spirit world could and would intervene. the Avatar Spirit came from the sprit world, it could also be removed
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PeeTearGriffen
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« Reply #64 on: Dec 07, 2007 05:01 am »

^^^^ya i know the world isn't all black and white its complex and interesting. but im just going by how the avatar is for kids and well kids see reality in mostly black and white. of course u do make a valid point and it is plausable and the spirit world will probably play a roll. it would be a nice twist to this  story.  "WHAT A TWIST" m.night
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NCallahan
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« Reply #65 on: Dec 07, 2007 08:14 am »

the task of the avatar is not to tell you wat is good or evil, his task is to keep balance.

If balance has be maintained, doesn't that imply a moral imperative? That you should do certain things and shouldn't do other things? Like, one set of actions is "good" and the other set of actions is "bad"?

We've already seen a corrupt Avatar: Kuruc. Near as I can tell, for a good chunk of time, the guy wasted his powers of petty, ego-driven endeavors. And there's no sign he suffered catastrophic chakra failure. Instead, Koh was sent to aggressively photoshop his fiancee's face. So, 1) being a moral failure doesn't deprive an avatar of his powers, but 2) there is definitely a force out there that takes things personally if the Avatar fails to live up to expectations.
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Yougo
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« Reply #66 on: Dec 07, 2007 08:36 am »

If balance has be maintained, doesn't that imply a moral imperative? That you should do certain things and shouldn't do other things? Like, one set of actions is "good" and the other set of actions is "bad"?
yes indeed, good for balance, bad for balance

but in terms of politics, criminal justice, disease, floods, marital problems, or kittens in trees, as long as balance is not disturbed, the Avatar does not have to act. that's why Roku had a big house at the beach. to sit back, relax and have a cup of tea. then Sozin happend...

as our friendly neighbourhood Spider-man said, with great power comes great responsibilities.

come to think of it, as long as the Avatar does his job right, and keep balance, he could do whatever damnwell he peased in his spare time. conclusion, yes he could be a thug, but only to a certain extend

Thank you of reminding us of Kuruk, Avatar's finest hour...



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NCallahan
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« Reply #67 on: Dec 07, 2007 08:58 am »

yes indeed, good for balance, bad for balance

but in terms of politics, criminal justice, disease, floods, marital problems, or kittens in trees, as long as balance is not disturbed, the Avatar does not have to act. that's why Roku had a big house at the beach. to sit back, relax and have a cup of tea. then Sozin happend...

But then you've completely compartmentalized human existence, which just isn't possible. The single action of a single human being may not seem like much, but if every human being is committing that single action, it has tremendous cumulative effects. How humans interact with the rest of the ecosystem is defined by our society and culture, and our society and culture are defined by everything we value, which is in turn defined by what we believe to be true. To maintain the ecosystem, then, human beings must be dedicated to truth, for wrong knowledge leads to misguided action. You might say we could just follow truth in those matters pertaining for the ecosystem. But the scope of our perception is not so great that we can be absolutely certain what pertains to the ecosystem. So the only way to be sure is to be dedicated to truth in all matters. If there is an overriding imperative for maintain "balance" (assuming it means a healthy eco-sphere), then there follows an overriding imperative to maintain that humans follow truth in all things.

But what is truth? This question then leads to an overriding imperative to study the world and discern what is true. However, we then must do so cautiously, for fear of violating the originally imperative of maintaining the eco-sphere.

I could probably keep going with this for several iterations. But I think my point shows itself. The Avatar must be concerned with all things, because all things contribute to the balance or lack thereof.
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Fomorian
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« Reply #68 on: Dec 07, 2007 11:49 am »

Yes I think it's possible for there to be an "evil Avatar", just extremely unlikely. The way I see it the spirit of the Avatar is born as a human so they can witness human feelings and experiences first hand. This is suppose to give them empathy, according to Avatar Yangchen. If the spirit of the Avatar is born into a life that is rather corrupted, whether by a despot or from just an overall crappy and abusive upbringing, then they would have different perception of human life.

Also, look at Avatar Kuruk. He was a violent, arrogant, womanizer. He only changed his ways after he met his future wife. Now unless that future wife of his was a past Avatar in disguise then it's possible that past Avatars don't stop the current ones from certain actions (whether they try and fail or not try at all isn't seen). Now being a violent, arrogant, womanizer doesn't necessarily make you evil or mean you would shirk your Avatar duties of maintaining peace but they are definitely negative personality traits that you would think a "bringer of peace" shouldn't possess. Also, if the Avatar is capable of those negative traits, why not others?

As for the chakra gates and the Avatar state, why wouldn't an "evil" Avatar be able to control them? As far as we know past Avatar's can't stripe the current Avatar of his or her power, so the "evil" Avatar should be able to enter the Avatar state. As for the gates, what you need to release for them to open are: fear, guilt, shame, grief, lies, illusion, and earthly attachments. Releasing all of these gates seem possible for an "evil" Avatar to do since then aren't explicitly and irrevocably tied to being "evil".
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bico
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« Reply #69 on: Dec 07, 2007 12:05 pm »



as our friendly neighbourhood Spider-man said, with great power comes great responsibilities.


You're absolutely right.  However, I've seen many examples in comics and other literature that suggests a possibility of going overboard with one's responsibilities.  I could see even Aang becoming a corrupt Avatar with the right influence.  I mean, here we have a kid who is obsessed with setting the world right and living up to his duties as an Avatar.  What's to stop him from deciding he needs to make sure no one can possibly upset the balance and make the world unsafe for his loved ones and setting himself up as a world dictator himself?

If I may make another Star Wars reference, it could very well be very much like the character of Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus.  Jacen was as good as Jedi come, always befriending animals and turning vicious monsters into purring kittens (metaphorically speaking), and he strongly spoke out against using the Force to do much of anything pertaining to politics and the world.  He wanted to become a hermit, pretty much.  Of course, then came his "training" with Vergere, in which he was taught the lesson that he must let go of his fear of the dark side (that there was no dark side of the Force, only of people), and embrace his pain.  That it was up to him to decide what, in the garden of the galaxy, were weeds and what were flowers.  And, along this same line, Lumiya told him that he must truly become objective and destroy that which he loved if it meant maintaining his view of order.  Now Jacen is a Sith, and has put a warrant out for his parents' arrest, killed his student and his aunt Mara, and even kidnapped his daughter, and with each time he does these things he hurts himself inside, but each time he becomes more immune to further shocks to his conscience.

Now, I can definitely see something like this happening to an Avatar.  Even Aang.  I mean, look at what Pathik taught.  It's almost exactly what Vergere and Lumiya, two Force users who were basically Sith, taught Jacen.  That teaching could easily become corrupted in a human being's mind to become an excuse to take over the world and subjugate all to one's will because, after all, "Avatar knows best."
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AzureArrow
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« Reply #70 on: Dec 07, 2007 12:57 pm »

I think if it was possible for the Avatar to be Evil, then we could end up with a story line where the Fire Lord needs to take out the Avatar before he takes over the world.

" And I believe the Fire Lord....can save the world"~cue music
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Jedi
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« Reply #71 on: Dec 07, 2007 02:26 pm »

I think its possible. Why not? What if Azula was born the Avatar? I dont think anything could change her evil ways.
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Azulaang
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« Reply #72 on: Dec 07, 2007 02:53 pm »

The fact that the Avatar spirit is connected to the spirit world makes me think that there is some kind of defense mechanism to prevent the Avatar from being born into a corrupt environment.

So even if the Fire Nation was full of corrupt characters, hopefully there'd still be a good family in some small fishing village somewhere on the edge of the Fire Nation to which the Avatar could be born. This would give the Avatar a fighting chance at growing up with the right moral values.

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Platinum Dragon
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« Reply #73 on: Dec 07, 2007 04:52 pm »

I think if there was an Anti-Avatar, it wouldn't be the Avatar himself. Sort of like Christ and Anti-Christ (only as examples, thank you).

On Azula being born the Avatar- I think the Avatars pasts lives would try to help. Perhaps they would take her spirit to some sort of purity well or something and make her better... I don't know...
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Red Hawk
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« Reply #74 on: Dec 09, 2007 02:57 pm »

As long as the Avatar has the right upbringing, it will be a force of good.  Just look at Roku- he could have supported Sozin, but he didn't.

But what if an Avatar didn't have a formal upbringing?  What if the Avatar was born in a terrible family and gets thrown out on the streets of Ba Sing Se, and grows up in a life of crime, or maybe gets involved with the Dai Li?  What if someone like Long Feng was the Avatar? Shocked

But, perhaps the Avatar Spirit always knows to be incarnated into someone who it knows will have a proper upbringing.  And maybe the Avatar's personality is always benevolent.

It would be cool if a past Avatar was corrupt, and Aang would have to deal with what he did in a past life.  "Avatar Day" had a chance to do this, but went with the conclusion that the Avatar was right all along.  Although Kyoshi certainly wasn't a perfect Avatar(Dai Li).
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