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Author Topic: A series in which the Avatar is the antagonist. Thoughts?  (Read 17282 times)
chicken_sokka
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« Reply #125 on: Feb 14, 2013 01:40 am »

Why not a series in which the Avatar him/herself is the enemy though? Sure, you say the Avatar should always represent balance and justice.... But do you honestly think that ONE Avatar won't realize how much power they possess and decide that they want to use it for their own gain? Be realistic.
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sweetkorra17
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« Reply #126 on: Feb 25, 2013 11:47 pm »

^^

i think it will be hard to fight if Avatar is the main villain or enemy,, who can beat him?  the spirits is the possible enemy for Crime-Avatar
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chicken_sokka
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« Reply #127 on: Feb 26, 2013 02:58 pm »

^^

i think it will be hard to fight if Avatar is the main villain or enemy,, who can beat him?  the spirits is the possible enemy for Crime-Avatar

This is precisely why the series would be so damn epic! A team of "normal" benders and nonbenders have to find a way to somehow stop a tyranical fully realized Avatar. How they would do it I don't know, but if bryke pulled it off it would be epic as all hell I'm sure. I think it'd be a situation where intelligence would need to trump power and bending. Sokkaness to the rescue!
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« Reply #128 on: Feb 26, 2013 11:20 pm »

^^

i think it will be hard to fight if Avatar is the main villain or enemy,, who can beat him?  the spirits is the possible enemy for Crime-Avatar

This is precisely why the series would be so damn epic! A team of "normal" benders and nonbenders have to find a way to somehow stop a tyranical fully realized Avatar. How they would do it I don't know, but if bryke pulled it off it would be epic as all hell I'm sure. I think it'd be a situation where intelligence would need to trump power and bending. Sokkaness to the rescue!

There are checks in place for corrupt Avatars. Pretty confident if he ever went into the Avatar State that he would be able to control it. Avatars can possess other Avatars, and they wouldn't allow it. An Anti-Avatar would be a fine plot, but evil Avatar wouldn't. It just betrays the nature of the series.
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chicken_sokka
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« Reply #129 on: Feb 27, 2013 03:20 am »

^^

i think it will be hard to fight if Avatar is the main villain or enemy,, who can beat him?  the spirits is the possible enemy for Crime-Avatar

This is precisely why the series would be so damn epic! A team of "normal" benders and nonbenders have to find a way to somehow stop a tyranical fully realized Avatar. How they would do it I don't know, but if bryke pulled it off it would be epic as all hell I'm sure. I think it'd be a situation where intelligence would need to trump power and bending. Sokkaness to the rescue!

There are checks in place for corrupt Avatars. Pretty confident if he ever went into the Avatar State that he would be able to control it. Avatars can possess other Avatars, and they wouldn't allow it. An Anti-Avatar would be a fine plot, but evil Avatar wouldn't. It just betrays the nature of the series.

I'd have to disagree. What if the Avatar himself doesn't think what he's doing is wrong? What if the way he pictures it, having a tighter grip on the entire world is the only way to preserve peace? In that case, he'd still have full use of the Avatar state and would be able to use it without restriction. It in no way betrays the nature of the series... In fact, it makes it even more realistic.
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #130 on: Feb 27, 2013 05:59 am »

There are checks in place for corrupt Avatars. Pretty confident if he ever went into the Avatar State that he would be able to control it. Avatars can possess other Avatars, and they wouldn't allow it. An Anti-Avatar would be a fine plot, but evil Avatar wouldn't. It just betrays the nature of the series.

I'd have to disagree. What if the Avatar himself doesn't think what he's doing is wrong? What if the way he pictures it, having a tighter grip on the entire world is the only way to preserve peace? In that case, he'd still have full use of the Avatar state and would be able to use it without restriction. It in no way betrays the nature of the series... In fact, it makes it even more realistic.
[/quote]

Not necessarily. He/she has to convince the past Avatar(s) first. An Avatar can't go rogue without facing the past Avatars first. And hell, past Avatars can mess up the rebel for good with possession, locking out the Avatar State or pulling out an Aang and energybend him/her.
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chicken_sokka
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« Reply #131 on: Feb 27, 2013 01:48 pm »

There are checks in place for corrupt Avatars. Pretty confident if he ever went into the Avatar State that he would be able to control it. Avatars can possess other Avatars, and they wouldn't allow it. An Anti-Avatar would be a fine plot, but evil Avatar wouldn't. It just betrays the nature of the series.

I'd have to disagree. What if the Avatar himself doesn't think what he's doing is wrong? What if the way he pictures it, having a tighter grip on the entire world is the only way to preserve peace? In that case, he'd still have full use of the Avatar state and would be able to use it without restriction. It in no way betrays the nature of the series... In fact, it makes it even more realistic.

Not necessarily. He/she has to convince the past Avatar(s) first. An Avatar can't go rogue without facing the past Avatars first. And hell, past Avatars can mess up the rebel for good with possession, locking out the Avatar State or pulling out an Aang and energybend him/her.
[/quote]

When was any of this ever confirmed?
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AtoMaki
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« Reply #132 on: Feb 27, 2013 04:23 pm »

When was any of this ever confirmed?

it is just a theory  Smiley. We have multiple occasions when past Avatars materialized for the current Avatar, and at least one case when a past Avatar energybent the current Avatar, so I guess it couldn't be that far-fetched...
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« Reply #133 on: Feb 27, 2013 11:15 pm »

^^

i think it will be hard to fight if Avatar is the main villain or enemy,, who can beat him?  the spirits is the possible enemy for Crime-Avatar

This is precisely why the series would be so damn epic! A team of "normal" benders and nonbenders have to find a way to somehow stop a tyranical fully realized Avatar. How they would do it I don't know, but if bryke pulled it off it would be epic as all hell I'm sure. I think it'd be a situation where intelligence would need to trump power and bending. Sokkaness to the rescue!

There are checks in place for corrupt Avatars. Pretty confident if he ever went into the Avatar State that he would be able to control it. Avatars can possess other Avatars, and they wouldn't allow it. An Anti-Avatar would be a fine plot, but evil Avatar wouldn't. It just betrays the nature of the series.

I'd have to disagree. What if the Avatar himself doesn't think what he's doing is wrong? What if the way he pictures it, having a tighter grip on the entire world is the only way to preserve peace? In that case, he'd still have full use of the Avatar state and would be able to use it without restriction. It in no way betrays the nature of the series... In fact, it makes it even more realistic.

The point is his past lives would know and stop him. It betrays his past lives completely.
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chicken_sokka
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« Reply #134 on: Feb 27, 2013 11:41 pm »

When was any of this ever confirmed?

it is just a theory  Smiley. We have multiple occasions when past Avatars materialized for the current Avatar, and at least one case when a past Avatar energybent the current Avatar, so I guess it couldn't be that far-fetched...

When has a past Avatar ever energybent another Avatar? I remember no such thing.

EDIT: Unless you're talking about Aang giving Korra her powers back. In which case, it can be argued that that only happened because Korra allowed it to.

^^

i think it will be hard to fight if Avatar is the main villain or enemy,, who can beat him?  the spirits is the possible enemy for Crime-Avatar

This is precisely why the series would be so damn epic! A team of "normal" benders and nonbenders have to find a way to somehow stop a tyranical fully realized Avatar. How they would do it I don't know, but if bryke pulled it off it would be epic as all hell I'm sure. I think it'd be a situation where intelligence would need to trump power and bending. Sokkaness to the rescue!

There are checks in place for corrupt Avatars. Pretty confident if he ever went into the Avatar State that he would be able to control it. Avatars can possess other Avatars, and they wouldn't allow it. An Anti-Avatar would be a fine plot, but evil Avatar wouldn't. It just betrays the nature of the series.

I'd have to disagree. What if the Avatar himself doesn't think what he's doing is wrong? What if the way he pictures it, having a tighter grip on the entire world is the only way to preserve peace? In that case, he'd still have full use of the Avatar state and would be able to use it without restriction. It in no way betrays the nature of the series... In fact, it makes it even more realistic.

The point is his past lives would know and stop him. It betrays his past lives completely.

And again, it in no way betrays his past lives if he himself doesn't think of it as a betrayal. And even if he or she DID, there's no guarantee that the past Avatars could do anything about it... The only other times that an Avatar has "taken over" the current Avatar have been when the current one has willingly become a vessel. Ultimately however,  how an Avatar uses his/her power to create "balance" in the world is more or less completely up to them.
« Last Edit: Feb 27, 2013 11:55 pm by chicken_sokka » Logged



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AtoMaki
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« Reply #135 on: Feb 28, 2013 06:47 am »

When has a past Avatar ever energybent another Avatar? I remember no such thing.

Yes, I was thinking about the Aang/Korra thing. And hey, I think willingness isn't a requirement for energybending. Just ask Ozai or Yakone  Wink!

And again, it in no way betrays his past lives if he himself doesn't think of it as a betrayal. And even if he or she DID, there's no guarantee that the past Avatars could do anything about it... The only other times that an Avatar has "taken over" the current Avatar have been when the current one has willingly become a vessel.

Actually, Kyoshi possessed Aang without his permission. The past Avatar also serves as a mentor and guide, so if he/she decides to abandon the current Avatar for whatever reason, then said Avatar will need some serious support from others to learn all the Avatary stuff. Especially because the past Avatar can shut down people anytime Roku/Yeong-Yeong style.

On this note, I can see one plausible evil!Avatar scenario: when the past Avatar is the bad guy, and the current Avatar is little more than his/her puppet. That could work!
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« Reply #136 on: Feb 28, 2013 06:12 pm »

And again, it in no way betrays his past lives if he himself doesn't think of it as a betrayal. And even if he or she DID, there's no guarantee that the past Avatars could do anything about it... The only other times that an Avatar has "taken over" the current Avatar have been when the current one has willingly become a vessel. Ultimately however,  how an Avatar uses his/her power to create "balance" in the world is more or less completely up to them.

We know that's not true from Roku's interaction with Aang in the Promise. Maybe Roku was the only Avatar who thought that what Aang was doing with the United Republic was wrong, so Aang could overcome him. But all of them, no way. Plus Kyoshi possessed Aang and took her form without his permission. Pretty easy to guess that other Avatars could do the same if they knew the other Avatar was up to no good.
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chicken_sokka
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« Reply #137 on: Feb 28, 2013 08:09 pm »

And again, it in no way betrays his past lives if he himself doesn't think of it as a betrayal. And even if he or she DID, there's no guarantee that the past Avatars could do anything about it... The only other times that an Avatar has "taken over" the current Avatar have been when the current one has willingly become a vessel. Ultimately however,  how an Avatar uses his/her power to create "balance" in the world is more or less completely up to them.

We know that's not true from Roku's interaction with Aang in the Promise. Maybe Roku was the only Avatar who thought that what Aang was doing with the United Republic was wrong, so Aang could overcome him. But all of them, no way. Plus Kyoshi possessed Aang and took her form without his permission. Pretty easy to guess that other Avatars could do the same if they knew the other Avatar was up to no good.

You say she possessed him without his permission, but you forget that he was wearing her clothing for a reason. He was hoping for something like that to happen, and so he opened himself to it. And it happened. In Korra, she too was open to it and so Aang was able to physically interact with her. Roku in the Promise didn't force himself on Aang, just continuously made suggestions that Aang refused to follow. In the end, Aang got tired of them and severed his connection with Roku.
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« Reply #138 on: Mar 01, 2013 01:28 am »

the thing is that the past avatar would take control of him as soon as he entered the Avatar state (like in the finale). Obviously they couldn't or wouldn't kill him but they could incapacitate him for others to finish off
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« Reply #139 on: Mar 01, 2013 02:57 pm »

Or simply such thoughts would never pass through an avatar's mind, due to influence of his ancestors.
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chicken_sokka
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« Reply #140 on: Mar 01, 2013 02:59 pm »

the thing is that the past avatar would take control of him as soon as he entered the Avatar state (like in the finale). Obviously they couldn't or wouldn't kill him but they could incapacitate him for others to finish off

But see, maybe they wouldn't at first, not until the finale..... Which, all in all, would still make a pretty damn epic series. And until bryke confirm that past Avatars can even control the current one to that degree, I'm sticking with my idea that the current one more or less has control over it all, especially if in their own head they are morally correct. And even WITHOUT the avatar state, a fully realized Avatar with complete mastery over all four elements, their advanced forms (and possibly even more!) would make a perfect villain in and of itself. Don't you agree?
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« Reply #141 on: Mar 01, 2013 07:19 pm »

I too have always wondered about this topic. I think if it was going to be played out it would have to be done in some creative way.  I think if done right it could be very intriguing and could explore more into the Avatar, the Avatar Cycle, and the Avatar State.
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« Reply #142 on: Mar 02, 2013 07:22 pm »

Why not a series in which the Avatar him/herself is the enemy though? Sure, you say the Avatar should always represent balance and justice.... But do you honestly think that ONE Avatar won't realize how much power they possess and decide that they want to use it for their own gain? Be realistic.

Out of curiosity though, what does the Avatar have to gain that isn't inherently theirs? They are respected and supported throughout their lives. You would think that any desire for power would be redundant since they already have it. Obviously, avatars are supposed to be raised in a way that teaches them respect for all the nations, not just themselves.

I do see where you're coming from with this, though. If the above circumstances were not the case, the Avatar could grow up with a thirst for power. It's just that all the avatars are identified fairly quickly, so unless he/she was never found, it wouldn't make sense for one to become degenerate.
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« Reply #143 on: Mar 03, 2013 10:06 pm »

I think that's why there is 'elite' groups or religious societies bend on finding the avatar and keeping a track of him, such as the fire sages, the air nomad council,etc.

So in case things go haywire, they can effectively try to stop it.
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chicken_sokka
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« Reply #144 on: Mar 04, 2013 12:03 am »

I get what you two are talking about, but I mean once the Avatar has grown and become more independent. Not as a teen with countless older people keeping him/her in check. The Avatar I'm hinting at is one who has observed and contemplated the world for decades. He or she has had time to think, time to travel and experience, time to live and gain respect, and, ultimately, time to develop his/her moral code and decide that a balanced world means a world under their control.

The teens in this series would be the protagonists. A nonbender even (with bending friends)! Extremes vs. extremes.... Powerlessness vs. "all-powerful". The Avatar would be an adult.

And I've been thinking.... What if their whole motive was to wipe out the United Republic and restore the world to it's pre-Aang balance? I'm sure many previous Avatars would even agree with this reasoning, especially if he/she has convincing points.
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« Reply #145 on: Mar 12, 2013 08:20 pm »

If the avatar is going to be an antagonist then i want a chi-blocking protagonist.
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chicken_sokka
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« Reply #146 on: Mar 13, 2013 01:23 pm »

If the avatar is going to be an antagonist then i want a chi-blocking protagonist.

I completely agree. Someone who has mastered (or will master) all forms of non-bending combat. Swords, chi-blocking, boomerangs, the whole motherload.
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« Reply #147 on: Mar 13, 2013 06:44 pm »

And I've been thinking.... What if their whole motive was to wipe out the United Republic and restore the world to it's pre-Aang balance? I'm sure many previous Avatars would even agree with this reasoning, especially if he/she has convincing points.

If done peacefully, I'm not seeing how this is antagonistic. Grin
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chicken_sokka
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« Reply #148 on: Mar 14, 2013 01:18 pm »

And I've been thinking.... What if their whole motive was to wipe out the United Republic and restore the world to it's pre-Aang balance? I'm sure many previous Avatars would even agree with this reasoning, especially if he/she has convincing points.

If done peacefully, I'm not seeing how this is antagonistic. Grin

lol I guess you can say that, but I don't think the people of the United Republic (having already lived there for over a century) would peacefully agree to the Avatar's demands. Forcing him/her to take more extreme measures.
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« Reply #149 on: Mar 14, 2013 06:09 pm »

Eh, even the more extreme measures can be subtle, likely slowly shutting down the city's access to clean water and such. And that's not even if the Avatar just gets enough resources together to reward people for leaving the city. It's not like Republic City is a nice place to live for most of its people.
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