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Author Topic: A series in which the Avatar is the antagonist. Thoughts?  (Read 17284 times)
Lieselle
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« on: Apr 14, 2006 08:57 pm »

(My brother and I had a conversation on this a few months ago and I just had to post it. It's been driving me bonkers!)

Now as we all know, the Avatar's job is quite understandable- they're to keep peace and balance between each nation. And with the Avatar-being of course, the most powerful being in their world-it's interesting to think about how differently each character would use that power. Ozai would look upon such power with greed and desire and use it for his own personal benefit-by the slaughtering and killing of others to rule the world. Jet would try to use it for the good of the nations and destroy the Fire Nation, but would have no regards as to how many people he left dying along the way. And Avatar Roku would (and has) use that power to keep the four nations at peace with each other.

Although the physical aspects on such power are interesting to think about (and I might start a thread on that later...) that's not what I'm trying to get across. The moral aspects are what I am trying to get across. If any individual person in the Avatar's world could have the power of the Avatar, would they choose to be a moral or immoral person? But with such power, who would choose a moral life when the immoral life was more rewarding? Who would choose to do what's right when they could gain anything they truly desired? Like money, power, respect, love-the list goes on and on people, I think you get what I'm trying to say Grin. Now I'm definitely not saying that's what you should do, but it's defiantly one (actually, 3 kinda)question to think about. All that and one other question; Could there be any Avatar in the past (Or perhaps the future) that used/will use that power for evil?

Yes, yes, I know what some of you are thinking "ZOMFG LIESELLE! Out of all the things you've said here, that is the most retarded! The Avatar's a good guy and uses his powers only for good! You know what-you should just die now!" Um, before you all come after me with pitchforks and fire, (*squeals*) let me finish. I know the Avatar's suppose to be good-and I know he's suppose to bring peace and live a moral life. But don't you think that's its possible that there was (or could be) an Avatar that didn't want to use their power for good and chose a life of evil because their need to be a moral person was destroyed by such power?

Well...that's just a little theory/ thingy I've got, and it may be lame.Or maybe it's not-I don't know. What about you guys? Any thoughts on the subject (all of the questions I've named) at all?
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Firebeendingqeen
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« Reply #1 on: Apr 15, 2006 09:37 pm »

ohhh that is what i would luv to see....."Avatar, gone bad"
but that is really a good thought, haha i am talking like i don't know u! hahah and i know u r lauging at my name....
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Unbridled Joy of Flight
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« Reply #2 on: Apr 16, 2006 12:16 pm »

I think the Avatar Spirit that is reincarnated from avatar to avatar works to keep each Avatar groing up in a generally 'good' moral direction.  that said, the 'lost love' Avatar from 900 years ago that had the run-in with Koh looks like he may have been acting pretty selfishly.  He may have been a generally good guy, but he might have been placing one lady above the world by placing himself at risk.  We also don't know what the lady did to end up losing her face to Koh.  Makes to see why Jedi aren't supposed to love...
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Bleeding_Aurora
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« Reply #3 on: Apr 16, 2006 01:32 pm »

I agree with Unbridled Joy of Flight. Yes, there could have been the possibility that an Avatar could be evil, but come to think of it everyone does. It's our choices that differentiate between good and bad. The Avatar is reincarnated, meaning they share the same soul, no? Well, it is believed that the soul or spirit incorporates an inner essence. So, let's assume that the first Avatar was good, that he was morally good, and never did anything wrong and always attempted to keep the peace. That means, that since the soul's inner essence was good, this moral good should be incorporated into every Avatar thereafter. However, once again, choices do effect power and how you use it, but if the Avatar's soul is set to be good, I don't believe that it would deter the Avatar from being good. Personally, I think you make a interesting argument, but as I said, the Avatar's inner essence has pretty much always been 'good', I don't think it can change. 
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Firebeendingqeen
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« Reply #4 on: Apr 16, 2006 03:33 pm »

ok if you look at one of these chat things, it will say avatar day. there is gonna be an anti-Avatar day for somthing aang did in one of his past lives, so i think one of the avatars did try to use their power for evil! that would be ultra freaky if it came true.
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Lieselle
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« Reply #5 on: Apr 16, 2006 05:58 pm »

Quote
ok if you look at one of these chat things, it will say avatar day. there is gonna be an anti-Avatar day for somthing aang did in one of his past lives, so i think one of the avatars did try to use their power for evil! that would be ultra freaky if it came true.

That's exactly the reason why I posted this thing. I read it at TVtome about a month ago and had the flashback to when my brother and I had the conversation. So, of course, I had to write this whole thing on it.

And Bleeding_Aurora, your thing about it being our choices that make the difference was true. So was your other thing, as well as Unbridled Joy of Flight  schpeal (agreed on the Jedi thing. But it's still upsetting they cant be with the one they love  Sad), about the inner soul being morally good in the first place. I personally think that there's such a thing as being completely good, but I don't believe that anything is completely evil. For instance, every other nation looks at the Fire Nation being ultimately evil. But it was originally good at one point, and still is. They're just hanging out with the wrong crowd/king ^_^.

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Pandora
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« Reply #6 on: Apr 16, 2006 08:07 pm »

Quote from: Lieselle
I personally think that there's such a thing as being completely good, but I don't believe that anything is completely evil. For instance, every other nation looks at the Fire Nation being ultimately evil. But it was originally good at one point, and still is. They're just hanging out with the wrong crowd/king ^_^.

And let us not forget the possibility of being led astray/misguided. The inner morals of the Avatar's soul are generally good, this I agree with. Through each generation of Avatar, the previous incantations have helped to guide and influence the current Avatar's actions, but I can find it very easy for a young Avatar to be influenced by living people and peers out of confusion and a lack of complete understanding about their role in the world. An outlet for this frustration could very easily be his immense powers, just as struggling teens today sometimes fall in with less than reputable people and end up doing things they know to be wrong.

Out of the hundreds of lives the Avatar has been through to gain such wisdom and power, I don't find it difficult to believe at all that there may have been a "bad seed" once. Perhaps we will learn more in "Avatar Day"... it's always a distinct possibility that a growing Avatar has a bad day and takes it out on others. Perfectly logical.

A completely evil Avatar, though, is a concept I can't really grasp. UJoF already made the Star Wars reference, so I'll skip that... a misguided Avatar is one thing. (S)he still has the inner essence of goodness, even if it isn't quite being listened to at the moment. An evil Avatar, I think, would be lacking that inner essence of good and would never turn away from the Dark Side (alright, last Star Wars reference, I swear). I can't wrap my mind around that one for some reason.
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Swamp Dweller
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« Reply #7 on: Apr 17, 2006 11:43 am »

Consider this scenario:
The Earth Kingdom has a very popular king who somehow got the idea that spirits and everything that relates to them is evil. He finds a way to hurt/weaken/kill the spirits and the general public supports him and participates in the desecration willingly. The Avatar comes and tries to negotiate with the king and tell him the truth about the spirits, but the king refuses to believe him and declares him an enemy of the Earth Kingdom. The king persuades the people that the Avatar is evil and most of them believe him, since it's always good to have someone you can blame for all of you troubles who is a real living human. The hurting/weakening/killing of spirits continues and the Avatar has no choice but to fight back. People die, the Avatar doesn't, and parents start telling their children that if they don't finish their cabbages the Avatar will come and eat them. Of course, the king is defeated at the end and the desecration is ceased, but the people who lost their family, friends, and neighbors will still remember the Avatar as an evil monster.

Was the Avatar, in this not unlikely case, evil? He killed many misguided, if not innocent, people who just chose to be loyal to their king rather than to some otherworldly spirits it seems everyone else hates. And yet, he couldn't just sit in his cozy little corner and ignore everything for fear of being hated by the public, he is The Avatar after all. I think that it's entirely possible for previous Avatars to be viewed as "evil" by the people but not be evil themselves, and if there was any evil Avatar in the history of the Avatar world, I bet this would be the case.
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Lieselle
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« Reply #8 on: Apr 17, 2006 05:15 pm »

You make a good point, and that's probably one way the Avatar could be considered "evil" (and the cabbage part was quite funny, haha). But I wasn't really talking about that kind of evil.  I meant like they WERE evil. Like, there was no king telling everyone he WAS evil. For example....hm, trying to think here. Okay, here's one. Lets say the fire nation killed Aang-I know its horrible, but we're pretending here! Then they knew he'd be reincarnated into the the water nation so they kill that water bender avatar, right? Then the last place he has to go is the fire nation. The fire nation would most likely influence the Avatar to be bad, but that's just one way for the Avatar to be evil. I mean for him to be evil on his own, because he didn't want to be good. Even if he(shes) WASN'T born into the fire nation.
« Last Edit: Apr 17, 2006 06:30 pm by Lieselle » Logged

Firelord Sunny
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« Reply #9 on: Jul 12, 2006 07:32 am »

here is an interesting subject...
In each of us there is two parts, a dark side and a light side.
In the fury of Aang though we might get to see Aangs dark side.
The title of the event alone suggest that Aang's dark side might be coming to fruit, We have seen this darkness before in the avatar state in Aang's visions, was Aang really looking at the avatar state from afar, or was he getting a warning for something?

Remember Aangs visions are pretty prolific and meaningful, his visions of his past, his visions of Toph, but there is still the vision he had all the way back in the avatar state that seemed to be more then just a mere warning but perhaps a dark omen.
Will the fury of Aang reveal the dark powers of the avatar, will Aang have to fight another battle with himself before he can take on the world?

It always seems Aang is in conflict, at times he is willing to fight and at others he is utterly helpless and for the avatar this inner conflict is very dangerous, with all that power Aang could destroy the whole world if he doesnt take on his personal problems.
But what if Aang becomes a dark avatar, what is there to stop him when Aang finally loses control of himself and wreaks havoc across the world?

and this might not just involve the fury of Aang episode but avatar in general as most of the events in Aavatar so far have come to bear fruit.
« Last Edit: Jul 12, 2006 08:01 am by Firelord Sunny » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: Jul 12, 2006 08:03 am »

The Avatar state is something the Avatar goes into in a time of heightened emotion and danger. As a result it's no suprise that they might have a pained expression on their face(or look evil) and lash out without control. It's not the Avatar doing this but the spirit behind the Avatar trying to protect him from death and as a result preserve itself. Therefore what is done in the Avatar State is not an expression of the Avatars nature dark or otherwise.


Personally whilst we get the most impressive bending from the Avatar state I'd rather not see it again.
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Firelord Sunny
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ladymecha
« Reply #11 on: Jul 12, 2006 08:14 am »

However the fact remains if that power is misuned it can lead to great devistation, and what if Aang does loose himself to darkness?
Aang could easily be a ticking timebomb, he tries to be positive but what if his darker emotions take hold of him while in the avatar state?
what can be used for good could easily be used for evil.
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Space, the final frontier...
These are the voyages of the flying bison Appa.
His ongoing mission, to explore strange new worlds,
To help Aang seek out new bending masters and escape the firenation.
To boldy go where no flying bison has gone before...

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« Reply #12 on: Jul 12, 2006 08:18 am »

The Avatar(or at least Aang) is not in control during the Avatar state so what emotions he might have are irrelevant to the action that will be performed as it is not his will but the will of the Avatar spirit to protect it's host.

If we assume the Avatar State can be controlled then whatever one does will be the same thing one would always do. So if you're dark you'd use the power for evil and if you're not then not. No hidden evil is released because of it.
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Firelord Sunny
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« Reply #13 on: Jul 12, 2006 08:23 am »

Perhaps, but at this point we dont know enough of the dynamics of the Avatar state, what if it is a power that can be controlled by Aang?
This is all theoretical of course, but there are cases where Aang seems aware of his avatar state... the siege of the north is a good example, and in the winter solstice too.
After the moon spirit is killed by Zhao it does seem that Aang channels himself into the avatar state, but after that it seems to take over.
But Aang is still young and there is still much to learn about the avatar state
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Space, the final frontier...
These are the voyages of the flying bison Appa.
His ongoing mission, to explore strange new worlds,
To help Aang seek out new bending masters and escape the firenation.
To boldy go where no flying bison has gone before...

Keeper of Davros' frozen head
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« Reply #14 on: Jul 12, 2006 09:19 am »

Siege of the North = Ocean Spirit kept him in control and not lashing out as usual
Winter Solstice = Roku did the same as above
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ScorChEd
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« Reply #15 on: Jul 12, 2006 10:11 am »

But......Roku and Kiyoshi and all the other avatars they showed in Avatar State when roku took him..could control it.
I doubt aang will turn to darkness...itll be too big a twist for the show.
Probably the control of the Avatar State will come with time and practice.
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TheNineTails
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« Reply #16 on: Jul 12, 2006 10:52 am »

Who knows there may be a ''mutt'' or otherwise known as the dark Avatar who may be another person entirely.
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xlegend34
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« Reply #17 on: Jul 13, 2006 07:01 pm »

But the evil looks we see aren't always in the avatar state, like the part 2 of the trailer, he wasn't in the avatar state but he was pissed.
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« Reply #18 on: Jul 13, 2006 08:06 pm »

Oh I really hope that the Dark Side to everyones favorite Cueball gets unleashed. Heh, heh, heh then the fun'll really begin. Besides I've always wanted to compare Aang's evil side to Dark Danny Phantom for quite a while.
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« Reply #19 on: Jul 14, 2006 10:06 am »

He seems to be controlling it in the Fury of Aang. So I guess it's less a defence mechanism and more a way for an Avatar to boost their power should the need arise.
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« Reply #20 on: Jul 14, 2006 10:11 am »

That's what I've been saying, he seemed, for lack of better words, to turn it on himself, and you could see Katara witht the look, pleading Aang not to go in it, her hand wason his arm when he was in the state, she was really begging him not to be in it.
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Leaves from the vine, falling so slow.
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Brave soldier boy, comes marching home.
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« Reply #21 on: Jul 14, 2006 10:17 am »

Well if he dies then the firenation victory will be absolute. Let's say he died whilst not in the Avatar state the fight would be set back but in time there would be another Avatar he'd probably have a harder time but just being there makes it easier to resist. On the other hand if he died in the Avatar state the FN would now be completely unopposed. So by going into the AS he's risking everything.
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xlegend34
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« Reply #22 on: Jul 14, 2006 10:20 am »

Yea but he is sort of clouded, in his mind by the loss of Appa, his only concern is to get Appa back, regardless of what he has to do, I mean Appa is one of his oldest friends.
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Leaves from the vine, falling so slow.
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Little soldier boy, come marching home.
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« Reply #23 on: Jul 14, 2006 10:25 am »

Well you'll forgive me for not understanding I tend not to think too highly of my pets
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xlegend34
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« Reply #24 on: Jul 14, 2006 10:26 am »

But Appa is more than a pet to Aang, he's one of the lat remainders of Aang's culture, and his animal guide, he has to mean something to Aang.
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Leaves from the vine, falling so slow.
Like fragile, tiny shells,
Drifting in the foam.
Little soldier boy, come marching home.
Brave soldier boy, comes marching home.
R.I.P. Mako
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