[319] The Old Masters

[SilverSandwich]

I don't agree: Iroh usurping Ozai can't be looked at in the same light as the Zuko/Azula battle.

For starters, Azula was never fully crowned Fire Lord/Lady (and it's unlikely that the good guys knew Ozai had just given her the title so he could assume the Phoenix King moniker), so the question of who would succeed Ozai was still up in the air.

If Iroh simply killed Ozai and took his place, history would view that as a coup, even if the intentions behind it were good. Iroh's not saying that it'd be terrible that he'd have to overthrow his brother (though I'm sure a big part of him feels that way), he's saying what it would look like in the eyes of history.

With Zuko and Azula, neither has ascended to the throne yet, and both are the legitimate heirs of Ozai, so each has a claim. And, again, in fighting Azula, Zuko doesn't have to face a crowned Fire Lord to overthrow.

I'm sure Iroh's not thrilled at the entire situation, but he was looking at it from a macro standpoint: even if some of their actions would've been justified, the way in which history viewed those actions would likely be just as, if not more, important in the grand scheme of things when it came to reshaping the world.

[Shi Len]

^ What? Because azula doesn't have the firelord title it's all good? Talk about contradiction, as a sibling had to nearly kill a sibling to grab power. Also iroh simply killing ozai is very unlikely judging by their shown skill sets.

[plushu]

I don't agree: Iroh usurping Ozai can't be looked at in the same light as the Zuko/Azula battle.

No, it is totally the same thing.

For starters, Azula was never fully crowned Fire Lord/Lady (and it's unlikely that the good guys knew Ozai had just given her the title so he could assume the Phoenix King moniker), so the question of who would succeed Ozai was still up in the air.

Which is completely irrelevant. Zuko was going for a power grab and he was going to have to take Azula down in the process. He knew this because he and Iroh had a conversation about it.

If Iroh simply killed Ozai and took his place, history would view that as a coup, even if the intentions behind it were good. Iroh's not saying that it'd be terrible that he'd have to overthrow his brother (though I'm sure a big part of him feels that way), he's saying what it would look like in the eyes of history.

Which only means that he was either an idiot or a hypocrite. If Iroh had challenged Ozai to a legitimate Agni Kai and won, then he would have become the "rightful" Fire Lord. It was exactly the same scenario.

With Zuko and Azula, neither has ascended to the throne yet, and both are the legitimate heirs of Ozai, so each has a claim. And, again, in fighting Azula, Zuko doesn't have to face a crowned Fire Lord to overthrow.

Zuko was not considered a legitimate heir after the events of DoBS. Both Ozai and Mai referred to him as a traitor, and the warden was going to turn Zuko over to Ozai when he was done messing with him. The only way for Zuko to take the thrown was by force because he no longer had a legitimate claim to it. Had Iroh challenged Ozai for the thrown, he would have been in the exact same position as Zuko because they were both considered traitors under Fire Nation law and had no legitimate claim to the thrown.

I'm sure Iroh's not thrilled at the entire situation, but he was looking at it from a macro standpoint: even if some of their actions would've been justified, the way in which history viewed those actions would likely be just as, if not more, important in the grand scheme of things when it came to reshaping the world.

Just Iroh BSing his way out of doing something he hadn't wanted to do since Lu Ten died. Iroh never struck me as the type to care about what history thought of him.

[Mr Grieves]

(and it's unlikely that the good guys knew Ozai had just given her the title so he could assume the Phoenix King moniker)

This is what I'm struggling to remember. DID they know?

I actually agree with SilverSandwich in that Zuko/Azula isn't the same. Ozai still had all the power and the history books would show that the power was passed to his son - which sounds like a pretty different scenario to his older brother taking it from him.

[drhorrible61]

^They never mentioned knowing.

[Mr Grieves]

^What's your take on this conundrum Doc?

[plushu]

(and it's unlikely that the good guys knew Ozai had just given her the title so he could assume the Phoenix King moniker)

This is what I'm struggling to remember. DID they know?

I actually agree with SilverSandwich in that Zuko/Azula isn't the same. Ozai still had all the power and the history books would show that the power was passed to his son

Except that Ozai passed the Fire Lord's title to Azula. A ceremony was planned. Fire Sages were in attendance. How could the power pass to Zuko when Ozai passed it to Azula?

I'm just a little confused here. Am I the only person who realizes that Zuko was a traitor and a criminal and had no entitlements or claim to the thrown? That nothing could actually be passed on to him?

"My name is Zuko, Crown Prince of the Fire Nation. Or at least, I used to be."

Even Zuko knew he was no longer a member of the royal family. So how could anything pass to Zuko? Why wouldn't the history books view Zuko as nothing more than a usurper? How exactly are Iroh's and Zuko's circumstances different when they were both enemies of Ozai and Azula: traitors and criminals under Fire Nation law?

[Mr Grieves]

(and it's unlikely that the good guys knew Ozai had just given her the title so he could assume the Phoenix King moniker)

This is what I'm struggling to remember. DID they know?

I actually agree with SilverSandwich in that Zuko/Azula isn't the same. Ozai still had all the power and the history books would show that the power was passed to his son

Except that Ozai passed the Fire Lord's title to Azula. A ceremony was planned. Fire Sages were in attendance. How could the power pass to Zuko when Ozai passed it to Azula?

I was under the impression that Ozai's new title allowed him to keep all the real power - but I haven't seen the episode for a long time.

And didn't Zuko crash her crowning kind of? At that point, it seems more like a challenge to her claim to the throne, rather than usurping someone who was well-established on it.

[plushu]

(and it's unlikely that the good guys knew Ozai had just given her the title so he could assume the Phoenix King moniker)

This is what I'm struggling to remember. DID they know?

I actually agree with SilverSandwich in that Zuko/Azula isn't the same. Ozai still had all the power and the history books would show that the power was passed to his son

Except that Ozai passed the Fire Lord's title to Azula. A ceremony was planned. Fire Sages were in attendance. How could the power pass to Zuko when Ozai passed it to Azula?

I was under the impression that Ozai's new title allowed him to keep all the real power - but I haven't seen the episode for a long time.

And didn't Zuko crash her crowning kind of? At that point, it seems more like a challenge to her claim to the throne, rather than usurping someone who was well-established on it.

Yes, his new title means that he keeps the real power and Azula's "upgrade" to Fire Lord is in name only. But I'm failing to see why it even matters. It's not okay if Zuko takes ultimate power from his sister but it's okay to take what power she rightfully has? What exactly are you arguing here?

[Mr Grieves]

(and it's unlikely that the good guys knew Ozai had just given her the title so he could assume the Phoenix King moniker)

This is what I'm struggling to remember. DID they know?

I actually agree with SilverSandwich in that Zuko/Azula isn't the same. Ozai still had all the power and the history books would show that the power was passed to his son

Except that Ozai passed the Fire Lord's title to Azula. A ceremony was planned. Fire Sages were in attendance. How could the power pass to Zuko when Ozai passed it to Azula?

I was under the impression that Ozai's new title allowed him to keep all the real power - but I haven't seen the episode for a long time.

And didn't Zuko crash her crowning kind of? At that point, it seems more like a challenge to her claim to the throne, rather than usurping someone who was well-established on it.

I'm failing to see why it even matters? It's not okay if he takes ultimate power from his sister but it's okay to take what power she rightfully has? What exactly are you arguing here?

That to a person looking back on these events, Zuko fighting Azula for the right to the throne and Iroh fighting Ozai for the throne look different.

[plushu]

(and it's unlikely that the good guys knew Ozai had just given her the title so he could assume the Phoenix King moniker)

This is what I'm struggling to remember. DID they know?

I actually agree with SilverSandwich in that Zuko/Azula isn't the same. Ozai still had all the power and the history books would show that the power was passed to his son

Except that Ozai passed the Fire Lord's title to Azula. A ceremony was planned. Fire Sages were in attendance. How could the power pass to Zuko when Ozai passed it to Azula?

I was under the impression that Ozai's new title allowed him to keep all the real power - but I haven't seen the episode for a long time.

And didn't Zuko crash her crowning kind of? At that point, it seems more like a challenge to her claim to the throne, rather than usurping someone who was well-established on it.

I'm failing to see why it even matters? It's not okay if he takes ultimate power from his sister but it's okay to take what power she rightfully has? What exactly are you arguing here?

That to an observer looking back on these events, Zuko fighting Azula for the right to the throne and Iroh fighting Ozai for the throne look different.

The funny thing about observations is not everyone sees the same things from historical events. It's likely that half the historians will see Zuko as a usurper, Iroh's half-assed wisdom notwithstanding. Not even the Great and Powerful Iroh could predict how history would view others unless he intended to write it himself.

[Mr Grieves]

(and it's unlikely that the good guys knew Ozai had just given her the title so he could assume the Phoenix King moniker)

This is what I'm struggling to remember. DID they know?

I actually agree with SilverSandwich in that Zuko/Azula isn't the same. Ozai still had all the power and the history books would show that the power was passed to his son

Except that Ozai passed the Fire Lord's title to Azula. A ceremony was planned. Fire Sages were in attendance. How could the power pass to Zuko when Ozai passed it to Azula?

I was under the impression that Ozai's new title allowed him to keep all the real power - but I haven't seen the episode for a long time.

And didn't Zuko crash her crowning kind of? At that point, it seems more like a challenge to her claim to the throne, rather than usurping someone who was well-established on it.

I'm failing to see why it even matters? It's not okay if he takes ultimate power from his sister but it's okay to take what power she rightfully has? What exactly are you arguing here?

That to an observer looking back on these events, Zuko fighting Azula for the right to the throne and Iroh fighting Ozai for the throne look different.

The funny thing about observations is not everyone sees the same things from historical events. It's likely that half the historians will see Zuko as a usurper, Iroh's half-assed wisdom notwithstanding. Not even the Great and Powerful Iroh could predict how history would view others unless he intended to write it himself.

True. But neither can I - so I think I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt

Edit: They should've just had Zuko say 'NO! I have to do this!' or something.

[Shi Len]

^Too bad they didn't, which makes iroh an hyprocrite. History will recognize that zuko fought azula to grab power unless zuko burns the history books or lies about it, yeah that sounds about right since that's what runs in the family. Perhaps someone in the future will see the burden of bending and create a way to eliminate it.....oh wait.

[NeeNee]

^ We don't even know how a 'legitimate claim to the throne' works (do you you need to be part of the royal family, or can any powerful firebender challenge the Firelord and win?), so it's really hard to tell how that scene will be interpreted from a Firenation POV.

But I do agree that Iroh didn't make much sense there, sending Zuko to do something he refused to do himself. Then again, overthrowing the Firelord is way more symbolic than fighting for the next place on the throne, so it would leave a bigger mark in the books.

[plushu]

^ We don't even know how a 'legitimate claim to the throne' works (do you you need to be part of the royal family, or can any powerful firebender challenge the Firelord and win?), so it's really hard to tell how that scene will be interpreted from a Firenation POV.

I've always been a little curious about that myself. Could any random Firebender challenge the Fire Lord for the thrown? Could some poor guy challenge some wealthy guy to an Agni Kai for his land and holdings? It would be interesting if every dispute was settled via an Agni Kai.

[NeeNee]

I've always been a little curious about that myself. Could any random Firebender challenge the Fire Lord for the thrown? Could some poor guy challenge some wealthy guy to an Agni Kai for his land and holdings? It would be interesting if every dispute was settled via an Agni Kai.

I doubt it. Mai's father didn't strike me as the fighting type, and he did seem to hold an important position.

Perhaps it only works for Firelords.

[Eire]

Fire Nation isn't a tribe where random warrior could challenge chief and in case of victory take away his cattle and woman. I suppose that such a desperate there would just earn a solid kick form the guards. 

[plushu]

I've always been a little curious about that myself. Could any random Firebender challenge the Fire Lord for the thrown? Could some poor guy challenge some wealthy guy to an Agni Kai for his land and holdings? It would be interesting if every dispute was settled via an Agni Kai.

I doubt it. Mai's father didn't strike me as the fighting type, and he did seem to hold an important position.

Perhaps it only works for Firelords.

Or maybe his was just a political position. I'm sure there were positions available for people who don't know how to fight.

Fire Nation isn't a tribe where random warrior could challenge chief and in case of victory take away his cattle and woman. I suppose that such a desperate there would just earn a solid kick form the guards.

And you know this to be a canonical fact, how?

[Eire]

Not canonical but logical. Can you image managing developed empire where the only factor considered while getting position was first and combat skills? Of course there wasn't told that challenging anyone would be forbidden- just would be person demanding such a thing taken seriously?

[Tru]

What an awesome episode. I loved seeing all the old masters again, and the Zuko/Iroh scene was really touching.

[Gilgamesh]

I have to admit something that has been bothering me recently.  Why did the Order of the White Lotus liberate Ba Sing Se?

First why liberate it while the comet is making everyone defending go from grunts, to super-soldiers? The White Lotus was a smaller force, with probably very few fire-benders. They would have had quite the fight to have won that battle. So why not attack after the comet, when the fire-benders were all grunts again? And they knew the comet was coming.

But since they knew what the Ozai was going to do, why not aid the Avatar and co.? Once Ozai and Azula were down and Zuko was Fire Lord, the war would be over and they could return Ba Sing Se back to the Earth Kingdom peacefully without ANY fighting.  If they refused THEN they could attack, and not have to worry about the extra tough soldiers.  On the other hand, if Aang and co. failed, then taking back Ba Sing Se would serve little purpose with a fleet of War Balloons headed their way.

Iroh was a smart man, as were the rest of the master benders with him, so why did they even bother?

[blorgy555]

"Spider-fly caught in its own web." Brilliant!

[luvavatar]

I think that a commoner would be allowed to challenge the Fire Lord in an Agni Kai, but that doesn't mean the Fire Lord will have to accept. If their rule is unpopular it is possible that the generals or Sages will force him/her to do so.

[Wan-Shi-Tong-Servant]

I was disappointed that we didn't get any interaction between Iroh- the carrier of the dragons' philosophy that fire is life- and Jeong Jeong- the self-hating firebender who believes fire is a root of evil.

Can't you just imagine Jeong Jeong at the cusp of a battle, pacing or looking at his hands or praying or meditating, desperately afraid that the comet's power is going corrupt him for good, etc, etc, and Iroh notices and has a talk with him.

[KpKimberly]

The thing I hate in this episode is, that the rest of the Gaang didn't worry long about Aang after June said he's "gone". At any case, it seemed so. They just planned further. Superfriends!!