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Question: Rate this episode:
10 - 253 (78.1%)
9 - 49 (15.1%)
8 - 15 (4.6%)
7 - 5 (1.5%)
6 - 1 (0.3%)
5 - 0 (0%)
4 - 1 (0.3%)
3 - 0 (0%)
2 - 0 (0%)
1 - 0 (0%)
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Author Topic: [319] The Old Masters  (Read 42120 times)
Eire
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« Reply #250 on: Mar 25, 2011 02:18 pm »

That's not that it was obvious even without spoilers.

I will never understand those who appreciate suspense more than realization. The fact is worthless unless it's visualised properly. When you see adaptation, classical spectacle or opera you always know what happen. Here you can see how localisation, sound of voice, little move or personal charisma can change literally everything. I've seen Nabbuco 15 times,  and I know what happen with my eyes closed- how it comes that every time I want other hero to die?
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worldends08
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« Reply #251 on: Mar 25, 2011 05:44 pm »

^I'm not saying I appreciated less than I would have if I hadn't read the spoilers in the first place. Believe me; watching the scene was more captivating than when I found out how the finale played out - EPECIALLY the soundtrack.
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fireywaters
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Peace on Avatar, before peace in real life


« Reply #252 on: Mar 25, 2011 07:58 pm »

I think besides that water against fire might be a good matchup, I think Katara's personality may be a reason why Zuko choose her to accompany to his battle with Azula. Katara can be downright vicious when she wants to be, so that might be a reason why you want that person to help you against someone like Azula.
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Peace between the Fire Nation and the other nations, before peace in our world
worldends08
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« Reply #253 on: Mar 25, 2011 08:02 pm »

^And he should know, after seeing what she can do in the Season 2 finale.
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Weege the Airbender
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« Reply #254 on: Apr 03, 2011 05:51 pm »

How did the gang get from the opposite side of the earth kingdom to Ba Sing Se in about 30 hours? Is Appa really that fast?
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« Reply #255 on: Apr 03, 2011 07:34 pm »

They went straight there with no interruptions. Remember when they went straight to the sages temple in the fire nation in less than a day.
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Nychus
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« Reply #256 on: Apr 05, 2011 10:45 am »

yup and going from the NAT to the NP took 2 whole days, they must be using a really weird map projection
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drhorrible61
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« Reply #257 on: Apr 05, 2011 11:50 am »

^Considering they couldn't find the North Pole it wouldn't surprise me if they were wandering aimlessly.
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High Elemental
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« Reply #258 on: Apr 05, 2011 12:58 pm »

They knew where they were going in the first season and they were always moving north, the writers just didn't care when it came to Season 3.
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Shi Len
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« Reply #259 on: Apr 05, 2011 06:13 pm »

They knew where they were going in the first season and they were always moving north, the writers just didn't care when it came to Season 3.
This.
Plot> Consistency.
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worldends08
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« Reply #260 on: Apr 07, 2011 02:49 pm »

Iroh did sound like a hypocrite when he turned down the offer of facing his own brother ("...a brother killing a brother to grab power." What that person does with that power is subjective.) when in fact that's exactly the position Zuko was in regarding his sister. (And I don't think Iroh expected Azula to survive.)

*I hate Black/White morality.
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« Reply #261 on: Apr 07, 2011 02:58 pm »

Me too. What if aang never showed up? Iroh was probably scared imo.
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Celestine
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« Reply #262 on: Apr 07, 2011 03:06 pm »

Iroh did sound like a hypocrite when he turned down the offer of facing his own brother ("...a brother killing a brother to grab power." What that person does with that power is subjective.) when in fact that's exactly the position Zuko was in regarding his sister. (And I don't think Iroh expected Azula to survive.)

*I hate Black/White morality.

It wasn't like that, really. Iroh was past the age where he should be ascending the throne. The old order, and the old generation had to fade into history together so that the world could move forward. For that, young blood needed to take the place of the old. As defender of harmony in the world, it was the avatar's place anyway to put down Ozai. Someone had to take the throne of the Fire Nation though, if the war were to end. There's no doubt in my mind that Iroh could've beaten Azula, but he chose to give Zuko that task, thereby emphasizing the point that it was time for the old world to pass away so that a newer, younger one could flourish.
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Perception is everything.



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worldends08
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« Reply #263 on: Apr 07, 2011 03:17 pm »

^No, I recognize one of the themes the show emphasized was the next generation surpassing the old one. It just sounded like he was contradicting himself by condoning "sibling killing off sibling", when in fact he was putting Zuko in that same position regarding Azula. (Her evident breakdown just alleviated the situation.)
« Last Edit: Apr 07, 2011 03:37 pm by worldends08 » Logged

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« Reply #264 on: Apr 07, 2011 03:29 pm »

@celestine exactly where are you getting this from?
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Celestine
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« Reply #265 on: Apr 08, 2011 08:35 am »

^No, I recognize one of the themes the show emphasized was the next generation surpassing the old one. It just sounded like he was contradicting himself by condoning "sibling killing off sibling", when in fact he was putting Zuko in that same position regarding Azula. (Her evident breakdown just alleviated the situation.)

Well, someone had to depose Azula. She couldn't be allowed to remain in power once Ozai fell. The only one with a legitimate claim to the throne besides Iroh was Zuko, and Iroh couldn't take the throne because he was too old.

Anything could be taken the wrong way if you look at it from the wrong angle. But Iroh's reasoning actually made good sense and wasn't a double standard at all, even though it could appear to be such if you're not clear on why he did what he did and/or you don't know Iroh.  Smiley



@celestine exactly where are you getting this from?

Umm... The series?  Undecided
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Shi Len
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« Reply #266 on: Apr 08, 2011 09:44 am »

^ nope, you're just making wild assumptions and trying to sell them off as facts.
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WaterDragon
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« Reply #267 on: Apr 08, 2011 01:34 pm »

^No, it's not a wild assumption. It is more of his interpretation of the scene. There is a big difference between a wild assumption, and an interpretation.
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RWB
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« Reply #268 on: Apr 08, 2011 03:47 pm »

...A wildly assuming interpretation?

"Anything could be taken the wrong way if you look at it from the wrong angle. But Iroh's reasoning actually made good sense and wasn't a double standard at all"

Iroh: History would see it as just more senseless violence, a brother killing a brother to grab power.

Exactly what he sent Zuko to do. Oh, except Azula is a girl, so I guess it doesn't count? Never took Iroh to be a sexist... pervert, yes, but not sexist.



Iroh: No. Someone new must take the throne. An idealist with a pure heart and unquestionable honour. It has to be you,  Prince Zuko.

Because the boy that was banished because of disrespect, and who then betrayed his country at more than one point because of his own personal problems, has unquestionable honor, right? Oh, and who can't even take the throne through his own merits- according to Iroh himself.

Perhaps to Iroh, but that's certainly not the case.

Iroh's comment was hypocritical and stupid. Oh, and we know since earlier he thinks Azula should die. 


Doh, me killing Ozai in a fair one on one= Brother killing Brother! Taboo!
Doh, Zuko doubleteaming Azula and killing her= Unquestionable Honor!




Frankly, it's just shoddy writing, as was the problem compared to season 2- season 3 did NOT handle the story as well.
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Weege the Airbender
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« Reply #269 on: Apr 08, 2011 05:15 pm »

^
That's a good anaylsis, Iroh is not as wise as we think he is.
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Mr Grieves
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« Reply #270 on: Apr 08, 2011 05:38 pm »

Because the boy that was banished because of disrespect, and who then betrayed his country at more than one point because of his own personal problems, has unquestionable honor, right?

I think its pretty clear that Iroh, and most viewers, won't feel that going against the deplorable actions of your own nation is a blow to one's honour.
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RWB
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« Reply #271 on: Apr 08, 2011 07:03 pm »

Betraying it for your own personal benefit, though? Like Zuko did in season 1?

The Blue Spirit ringing any bells?

Sure, honor I can accept. But unquestionable honor? No, no, Iroh, go back in your hole, er... tent.
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"I made [my money] on the seas, and in the mines, and in the cattle wars of the old frontier! I made it by being tougher than the toughies, and smarter than the smarties! And I made it square!" -Scrooge Mc Duck
Shi Len
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« Reply #272 on: Apr 08, 2011 09:28 pm »

...A wildly assuming interpretation?

"Anything could be taken the wrong way if you look at it from the wrong angle. But Iroh's reasoning actually made good sense and wasn't a double standard at all"

Iroh: History would see it as just more senseless violence, a brother killing a brother to grab power.

Exactly what he sent Zuko to do. Oh, except Azula is a girl, so I guess it doesn't count? Never took Iroh to be a sexist... pervert, yes, but not sexist.



Iroh: No. Someone new must take the throne. An idealist with a pure heart and unquestionable honour. It has to be you,  Prince Zuko.

Because the boy that was banished because of disrespect, and who then betrayed his country at more than one point because of his own personal problems, has unquestionable honor, right? Oh, and who can't even take the throne through his own merits- according to Iroh himself.

Perhaps to Iroh, but that's certainly not the case.

Iroh's comment was hypocritical and stupid. Oh, and we know since earlier he thinks Azula should die. 


Doh, me killing Ozai in a fair one on one= Brother killing Brother! Taboo!
Doh, Zuko doubleteaming Azula and killing her= Unquestionable Honor!




Frankly, it's just shoddy writing, as was the problem compared to season 2- season 3 did NOT handle the story as well.

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Mr Grieves
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« Reply #273 on: Apr 08, 2011 10:47 pm »

Betraying it for your own personal benefit, though? Like Zuko did in season 1?

Depends if you're judging his honour as he was at the end of the series or his...honour track record I guess. Cos he'd left the Blue Spirit behind.
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plushu
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« Reply #274 on: Apr 09, 2011 12:07 am »

Iroh did sound like a hypocrite when he turned down the offer of facing his own brother ("...a brother killing a brother to grab power." What that person does with that power is subjective.) when in fact that's exactly the position Zuko was in regarding his sister. (And I don't think Iroh expected Azula to survive.)

*I hate Black/White morality.

It wasn't like that, really. Iroh was past the age where he should be ascending the throne. The old order, and the old generation had to fade into history together so that the world could move forward. For that, young blood needed to take the place of the old. As defender of harmony in the world, it was the avatar's place anyway to put down Ozai. Someone had to take the throne of the Fire Nation though, if the war were to end. There's no doubt in my mind that Iroh could've beaten Azula, but he chose to give Zuko that task, thereby emphasizing the point that it was time for the old world to pass away so that a newer, younger one could flourish.

That this was one of the show's themes didn't make Iroh any less of a hypocrite.
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