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Author Topic: Is Zuko more Evil than Azula?  (Read 11835 times)
EmilCrane
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« Reply #150 on: Aug 16, 2008 05:18 pm »

Zuko betrayed the Fire nation, then the Gaang then the Fire Nation again, con we really trust him?Huh Huh Huh
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Kaylie
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« Reply #151 on: Aug 16, 2008 05:27 pm »

Azulon was in NO way a good person. He was perfectly fine with the horrors his nation put the Water Tribes through and it was his plan probably. He also led the war for frickin 75 years and completely messed the world up. The fact that he loved Iroh doesn't make him THAT much of a better person; evil people are fully capable of feeling it. Ozai loved Ursa and his kids at some point and Azula loved her parents and her brother too until their rivalry didn't turn into hate.

For the note, I think Ozai faked his fathers testament.

As for Zuko in season 1, he was an uncaring bastard who's goal was more important then most others. He rammed his ship directly into the SWT and almost killed a kid that way. Later he endangered the lives of the people there with his bending and definitely threatened them.

I think Ozai lied too, IMO. It's just my view of Season One Zuko changed slightly (not much, mind you) when we started seeing other FN actions to compare his with. The whole keeping his word/not destroying everything needlessly is a contrast to what we saw later. I have no doubt if it was someone like Zhao (and I don't think Zhao was only military FN person like that) in his place, the Southern Water Tribe encampment would have been burned to the ground even if Zhao got the Avatar.
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Tamerlan Pahlavi
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« Reply #152 on: Aug 16, 2008 05:35 pm »

The Puppetmaster and The Southern Raiders have shown us that it was the FN goal to remove all benders, not all people from the Southern Tribe. Besides, you can't burn a settlement of igloos, you melt them xD. I doubt the FN considered the SWT a threat anymore. Also, Zuko's quest for the Avatar was more important then getting back at the villagers.

Btw, I wonder how Ozai and Azulon acted during their quests for the Avatar.
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Acekendo
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« Reply #153 on: Aug 16, 2008 05:42 pm »

azula was infact born evil like mentioned before and in the episode zuko alone she being a meany as a kid but still. zuko betrayed everyone he had a alliance iwth before the last few episodes
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EmilCrane
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« Reply #154 on: Aug 16, 2008 05:48 pm »

There is a difference between mean and evil dude
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Tamerlan Pahlavi
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« Reply #155 on: Aug 16, 2008 05:49 pm »

Sure there is, Azula's evil in teen age evolved from her meanness when she was a kid.

Btw, if people were naturally born good or evil would the concepts of "choice" and "moral responsibility" make any sense at all? I don't think so.

Azula was maybe born with some ticks but the fact that she felt hurt by her friends betrayal and her mother's "neglect" shows that she has something human in her, something good that could still be hurt.
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Kaylie
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« Reply #156 on: Aug 16, 2008 05:49 pm »

The Puppetmaster and The Southern Raiders have shown us that it was the FN goal to remove all benders, not all people from the Southern Tribe. Besides, you can't burn a settlement of igloos, you melt them xD. I doubt the FN considered the SWT a threat anymore. Also, Zuko's quest for the Avatar was more important then getting back at the villagers.

Btw, I wonder how Ozai and Azulon acted during their quests for the Avatar.

LOL! Duh, I meant melted XD

Good points! I just think the FN was needlessly destructive. Zuko seemed a little more bound to his word and 'honor', even in Season One, as shown with the duel between him and Zhao. Just your basic foreshadowing by M&B to support his later turn, IMO.

Now, your question is very interesting. I wonder if they even bothered to look themselves, or just had people assigned to it?
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EmilCrane
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« Reply #157 on: Aug 16, 2008 05:50 pm »

If people were naturally born good or evil would the concepts of "choice" and "moral responsibility" make any sense at all? I don't think so.

Azula was maybe born with some ticks but the fact that she felt hurt by her friends betrayal and her mother's "neglect" shows that she has something human in her, something good that could still be hurt.

exactly my friend!
BTW this is supposed to be a joke thread
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Acekendo
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« Reply #158 on: Aug 16, 2008 05:52 pm »

ya you develup a hate for her but also pitty which is just GREAT WRITING
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Angelsmile
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« Reply #159 on: Aug 16, 2008 05:54 pm »

azula was infact born evil like mentioned before and in the episode zuko alone she being a meany as a kid but still. zuko betrayed everyone he had a alliance iwth before the last few episodes

Don't even get me started! She wasn't born evil, her father made her that way! They are both second born with lots of potential and he decided to make himself a perfect heir to the throne who would rule the country just like he would! He saw that she wanted love, and he pretended to give her that, as we see that when he leaves her alone with the firenation. He wasn't even going to explain himself if Azula wasn't begging so much! He reassured her that he did that because he "loved" and "trusted" her. True, he might have trusted her but how could you not trust your own little duplicate?
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EmilCrane
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« Reply #160 on: Aug 16, 2008 05:58 pm »

azula was infact born evil like mentioned before and in the episode zuko alone she being a meany as a kid but still. zuko betrayed everyone he had a alliance iwth before the last few episodes

Don't even get me started! She wasn't born evil, her father made her that way! They are both second born with lots of potential and he decided to make himself a perfect heir to the throne who would rule the country just like he would! He saw that she wanted love, and he pretended to give her that, as we see that when he leaves her alone with the firenation. He wasn't even going to explain himself if Azula wasn't begging so much! He reassured her that he did that because he "loved" and "trusted" her. True, he might have trusted her but how could you not trust your own little duplicate?

I agree with you, Azula was a little mean to Zuko but she also helped him by warning him of Ozai going to kill him and Ursa. There are scenes where she genuinely cares for Zuko, Mai and Ty Lee. There is good inside her, the same good inside Zuko b\c she is related to Roku as well. But Ozai manipulated her and turned her into a monster.
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Acekendo
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« Reply #161 on: Aug 16, 2008 06:00 pm »

ya which is the part you feel pitty for when you saw her go crazy chained up... and that part your glad. and ya, how can you trust your self if you know you yourself is that messed up.
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EmilCrane
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« Reply #162 on: Aug 16, 2008 06:03 pm »

Goiod writing on Brykes part, i just hope we get to know more about what happens to her, and I hope it is good. Since the finale I have been in an Azula loving state for some reason, but her down fall was so sad. Oh well back to the fan fic.
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Acekendo
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« Reply #163 on: Aug 16, 2008 06:04 pm »

lol ya but stillzuko is untrusting and azula flat out crazy. untill last episode where zuko is good and azula super crazy!
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CherryRose
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« Reply #164 on: Aug 16, 2008 06:39 pm »

I don't know. I they're both NOT evil. Zuko could have saved his country ANOTHER way without betraying it. Like telling Azula and Ozai that their idea was stupid or something. And he could have convinced them. Well but Ozai would probably do something idiotic. So um idk. Azula is insane (sorta). Zuko is too nice. Idk. I can't decide.
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grievous5226
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« Reply #165 on: Aug 16, 2008 08:18 pm »

I don't know. I they're both NOT evil. Zuko could have saved his country ANOTHER way without betraying it. Like telling Azula and Ozai that their idea was stupid or something. And he could have convinced them. Well but Ozai would probably do something idiotic. So um idk. Azula is insane (sorta). Zuko is too nice. Idk. I can't decide.
Ozai Isn't one for peace. He laughed at the idea at a peaceful world(The way Zuko said it was sort of cheesy/corny), but they're in it to win. Zuko Had no choice other than to betray it, to save it.
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CherryRose
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« Reply #166 on: Aug 16, 2008 09:25 pm »

Yeah, Ozai hates peace for some stupid reason. He'd rather hate everyone in the world & have them hate him back then love. lol. Zuko is ALWAYS corny! But hmm yeah good point. I still think Azula needed to keep her mouth shut during the meeting. Impressing Ozai is just not good. Ozai is crazy. Well umm yeah. Evil is Ozai.
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SpaceSword
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« Reply #167 on: Aug 16, 2008 10:09 pm »

Ozai had very small signs of being human. XD

He did seem a little disturbed when his wife left, quietly standing by the river his wife would stay until Zuko came up to him.
The only other signs of him being at least kind to his family are in the short Zuko flashbacks.

Azula was more human then Ozai at least, she was jealous of Ty Lee and looked upset about her mother calling her a monster.

Zuko in the first season just seemed to only see black and white, he could only see his mission and task nothing else mattered to him, Iroh sure is patant i mean man. O.o
But he did show signs for caring about other people, he tried saving Zhao, and in the storm he stopped going for the avatar so they'd make it out safely. Smiley

I wouldn't have been surprised if Zuko jumped off the boat and swam the whole way there to catch up to aang in that season, i bet he was thinking it lol. XD
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Kaylie
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« Reply #168 on: Aug 17, 2008 12:46 am »

Don't even get me started! She wasn't born evil, her father made her that way! They are both second born with lots of potential and he decided to make himself a perfect heir to the throne who would rule the country just like he would! He saw that she wanted love, and he pretended to give her that, as we see that when he leaves her alone with the firenation. He wasn't even going to explain himself if Azula wasn't begging so much! He reassured her that he did that because he "loved" and "trusted" her. True, he might have trusted her but how could you not trust your own little duplicate?

I agree with some of your points, but Ozai didn't 'make' Azula evil all on his own. She's still partly responsible for her own behavior. If you were talking about a less intelligent character, possibly, but Azula was very sharp.

Ozai taking Azula with him to battle would have been foolish, IMO. You don't risk both yourself and your only remaining heir. I don't think it was out of love or anything, just due to his own ego again, believing her to be a worthy sucessor to carry on his 'work'.
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Tamerlan Pahlavi
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« Reply #169 on: Aug 17, 2008 02:50 am »

It wouldn't surprise me if Ozai was looking for some way to gain immortality. People who think themselves as gods are more afraid of death then anyone else. That's why he was so eager to adopt such an extreme plan as the burning of the EK, to be remembered, an immortal memory at least... but I digress.

Anyway, I think both Zuko and Azula are fully responsible for their sins. The fact that one acted out of lack of care, despair and confusion and the other out of passion and hatred doesn't change the fact that all of that was evil.
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PVG100
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« Reply #170 on: Aug 17, 2008 04:01 am »

This topic is not about the actions of a person, but how they really are. I don't think we can grade care, despair and confusion as EVIL.
Zuko didn't get joy out of his hunt and evil deeds. Azula at the other hand, enjoys fighting and surpressing those who are weaker than her, now that's evil.
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« Reply #171 on: Aug 17, 2008 04:06 am »

This topic is not about the actions of a person, but how they really are. I don't think we can grade care, despair and confusion as EVIL.
Zuko didn't get joy out of his hunt and evil deeds. Azula at the other hand, enjoys fighting and surpressing those who are weaker than her, now that's evil.

You DO know that this is a joke thread, right? Tongue Cheesy
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Tamerlan Pahlavi
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« Reply #172 on: Aug 17, 2008 04:17 am »

Sure I do but I'll honestly say that lack of care for others isn't much different then enjoying hurting others. A person can have no particular issues with anyone, don't be sadistic at all but still don't care whether he hurts someone by following his/her ambitions or not. I consider people like that evil as well, just in a different category.

Inaction can be as well be a form of evil. Witnessing it and not even trying to stop it makes you almost as bad as the evil doer. By inaction, you approve.

But I digress...
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PVG100
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« Reply #173 on: Aug 17, 2008 04:56 am »

quote author=Doomsday link=topic=12536.msg1201493#msg1201493 date=1218964010]
This topic is not about the actions of a person, but how they really are. I don't think we can grade care, despair and confusion as EVIL.
Zuko didn't get joy out of his hunt and evil deeds. Azula at the other hand, enjoys fighting and surpressing those who are weaker than her, now that's evil.

You DO know that this is a joke thread, right? Tongue Cheesy
[/quote]
I don't see the joke at the beginning of the topic. Or maybe I am just dumb and you are the genious
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PseudoEthnic
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« Reply #174 on: Aug 17, 2008 04:58 am »

This topic is not about the actions of a person, but how they really are. I don't think we can grade care, despair and confusion as EVIL.
Zuko didn't get joy out of his hunt and evil deeds. Azula at the other hand, enjoys fighting and surpressing those who are weaker than her, now that's evil.

You DO know that this is a joke thread, right? Tongue Cheesy
I don't see the joke at the beginning of the topic. Or maybe I am just dumb and you are the genious

The thread is made as a joke, and thinking that Zuko is more evil than Azula. I'm not saying you're dumb, but you just didn't get the joke yet.
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